sirdarksol

I got my first tank from someone else. She had mostly set her tank up with various fish she won at a local carnival (I'm appalled that this practice is still...well...practiced), and it included a goldfish. The goldfish had been in the tank for at least six months prior to me getting it, and I had him in the tank for another six months before I moved him to a non-climate-controlled tank. The move had more to do with the fact that the He Who Eats Snails (the goldfish) and Miyamoto (my koi) were outgrowing the tank than anything else. So for at least a year, the goldfish lived in a tropical tank happily.
The way you put it is, in my opinion, very well stated.

timg

Would it be fair to say the Bryn started something here?...lol

timg

BTW, I'd love to know who wrote that article!

Callum The Cat

b0n3ZA

goldfish are the hardiest fish in my honest opinion.

We have a pond outside, and I'm going to be brutally honest.

It doesn't have a filter nor pump; we clean it once every 2 months, if that, by just sticking a hose pipe in the pond and letting the water overflow for about 30 minutes or so, or until the water is clear.
the pond is fill with algae, strange plants etc and the fish THRIVE! Oh and did I mention that we don't feed them? I think we've gone through 1/2 of a little palm size tin of fish flakes in a year. We feed them on the odd occasion when my folks fix the garden; maybe once a weekend if they're lucky. And please... no one tell me that they aren't happy and thriving. Not once have I seen a dead fish (except when the dogs knocked a rock onto one, and the other day). But I mean, these fish breed, grow huge, never die and live MUCH longer than anyones goldfish that I know of which reside in a tank.

We now have built a much bigger, cement pond into our garden, and have gotten a pump. We renovated the whole front of our house, so we decided to make a nice attractive fish pond. But in the mean while. the fish have just been in a big metal bucked with some cut-off old plants stuffed in for a month. All of them still living, all the babies doing fine, not ONE dead fish.

I think you guys are over reacting a bit when it comes to goldfish. They are perfectly capable of thriving in the oddest conditions.

timg

Ok, so maybe I should re-word the comment to "Would it be fair to say that Cullum and Bryn started something here?...lol

Callum The Cat

Bryn

stole some of bryns glory then lol

Callum, its both our glory.

(Goldfish and tropicals are also incompatible, since most larger tropical fish will harass the goldfish)
"Forgive me, but in my experience this has not been a problem"

i dont even need to answer this as The Essigs has

"I also have had a goldfish in my community tank and he did very well. You really need to ensure that the tank is large enough"

ok yes you can keep gold fish with tropical fish but either type of fish will never be half as happy as they both will seperate on there own. Yes dont they look all pretty together in the one tank the colours are glorious and what have you. but the fact is that tropical fish are tropical fish and need/like hotter temps of water and will always be happier, do better and live longer in them. Same goes for gold fish likes the lower temp so on and so on.

(Goldfish and tropicals are also incompatible, since most larger tropical fish will harass the goldfish)
"but in my experience this has not been a problem. I have cichlids, anabantoids and loaches in with mine, all of which are well known to be territorial and bullies, but the goldfish are big enough to not be intimidated or harrassed"

Ok, again they were not harrassed because the gold fish were bigger then them but for normally both around the same size in the same tank they would be harrassed.


(since goldfish are slow moving and gracious, while the tropicals are lightning fast.)
"This is not strictly true. Angels in particular are not fast moving, neither are many larger tropicals. Goldfish, on the other hand, are gracious, but are more than capable of speed and agility if they want."

This is a generalisation which means most tropical fish are faster and most gold fish are slower.

(For example, goldfish prefer their pH around 7.5, while most tropical fish like the pH of about 6.9)
"Do you change your pH when you do a water change, or do they all have the same water? If you keep both types in the same home, they both live in the same pH level!"

Again, they can live in the same PH but wont live as long ,wont be as happy and will not breed as well in the wrong PH. Listen, Gold fish are the hardest fish out there and anyone who can tip some tap water into a jar can keep them. so i dont think there gonna care to much about the PH. Tropicals will!

i really need not go on but as you can all see, you can keep them together. But you should never ever tell anyone to do it. or reccomend it as timg does

(plus they are boring and way to easy to keep)

Yes its true and the only reason why yours look ok timg is because they are high lighted by a graceful beautiful fish the angel fish. If they were on there own one would look twice.

b0n3ZA is with me on this one and so should all of you if you have any kind of love for keeping nice fish.


another link

http://www.tropicalfishdata.com/goldfish/

COBettaCouple

ok.. time to jump into the fray.. goldfish can be kept with tropical fish, but you just want to keep the same considerations as for any fish.. and allow probably 2-3 gallons per inch for their waste production. I used to think they couldn't, but really when i look at the facts, I can't see a realistic reason to segregate them.. the scientific information on them bears out that they can share a median temp. range of around 78F comfortably, along with the same pH range as a lot of tropicals. No fish is compatible with every other fish, but i think goldies could be kept with a fair number of other fish and be quite happy. i'm personally considering a pearlscale with angels, but may go with fancy gups in a 30g tall.

I'd say that as long as it's not overtaxing the bioload, that tank should work fine.

timg

I don't recall recommending that people do this, I just stated that they can survive together quite happily. No-where have I mentioned recommending that people do this. The fact that I do, mearly shows that it CAN be done, with success, if the conditions are right.

Others have also stated that they have done so, showing that I am not the only one to go down this path. It is not wise to make statements that you cannot quantify or that do not come from solid research and/or experience. I cannot state strongly enough the statement that "IF the conditions are right". This includes selection of the right types of fish, size, aggression, feeding requirements and a lot of other factors, all of which need to be taken into consideration when mixing any breeds of fish in a community.

The fish in my tank have been carefully selected to ensure that they all get on together. There are no fish that are over-dominant, there are a mixture of top, middle and bottom dwellers, adequate cover has been provided so that fish can hide if they need to, the temperature is stable at between 25 and 26C, the water conditions are as close to optimal as you will ever get, the filtration is better than most, and the volume is more than adequate at nearly 200 gallons imperial in total.

Incidentally, the latest recommended article is better, but does somewhat destroy your original statement where you stated that they are incompatible. It strongly recommends against, not excludes, but does hold one valid arguement regarding diseases. It also refers to goldfish as temperate water fish, rather than cold water, which is much a more accurate description.

I have another question for you too:

What exactly qualifies a fish as tropical? Is it the water temperature, the type of reproduction, the general area of the world? What exactly qualifies a fish as tropical?

The reason I ask is because if it's anything to do with temperature or region of the world, then goldfish could qualify. since they originate in china, where the temperatures are far warmer than here in the UK and at least the south of the country is in the tropics. If it has to do with reproduction then corydoras shouldn't qualify, since they need a reduction in water temperature to induce sporning, similar to goldfish. I see very little difference in the way the fish are made up genetically, so that can't be a qualification, all fish have swim bladders, so that can't be it, both tropical and coldwater fish have scales, etc, etc. Maybe it has to do with size, but that won't work, since there are many very large tropical fish. Do you have an answer, or is it just a term we use to classify fish for convenience?

timg

Hey Bryn, what shows that a fish is happy? If that means they breed, mine are very happy thank you, including the angels in the goldfish tank! (As it happens, I don't want the goldfish to breed, as I have no need for more, and a simple way to control this is to keep the temperature constant.) It doesn't mean that they are unhappy though and their behaviour certainly doesn't show them as unhappy, far from it!

timg

and on a closing note for this discussion, I have a little motto that I have lived by all my life, and Bryn, you would be well advised to adopt it:

"Don't knock it unless you've tried it!" When you have been keeping fish for as long as some of us have, you will realise that things are not always black and white, right or wrong. Sometimes we all have surprises, and nature has a wonderful way of intervening without invitation. The world of fish keeping is still evolving and we are all still learning. New breeds are being found, developed and bred, new methods are being found to enhance, improve or protect species. You should never have a closed mind with fish, because they adapt and change all the time.

If a word of advice is needed, then it's open your mind to the possibilities, and learn from others. Never criticize others, but evaluate their information and accept or reject it by choice, not arguement. Listen to the advice given on here, because as a rule, it's sound and good advice. Join a conversation but be thoughtful about how you respond. It is very easy to upset someone, especially if they are trying their hardest against difficult situations, which many newbies on here are. No-one has all the answers, no-one knows everything, everyone can be informed of mistakes and we all make them. It's the way they are informed that can make a friend or enemy.

When I was your age, I was very busy with earning a living and bringing up children, but still found the time for pets and fish. I didn't have the wealth of knowledge available today, I never had a computer and the internet was still in it's infantsy. I learned the only way I could, through making my own mistakes. You have a wonderful advantage here. You don't need to make mistakes, because we already have. You can ask anything, and somewhere, someone has the answer. This is how the forum works, and it works well. It is just about the largest and most active of it's kind. It relies on members being considerate, polite and courteous to each other, and this works very well. Young and old alike come here for advice and to offer advice and help, let's not spoil it with a silly disagreement.

My views are well known to the members here, and my talents and abilities are, I believe, respected. By the same token, I respect others' knowledge and abilities. We don't condemn each other, but work together to solve a multitude of problems for each other. If you don't like my setup, then that's your preference, but why make it personal? I responded to your comments not through anger but through knowledge and that's my tool. I state facts because I know them to be facts that I can prove, not because I read it somewhere or someone else said it. I have worked very long and very hard to build my home into a wrap-around aquarium because that's what we wanted. I don't force or tell others to do the same! I never recommend things that I don't know about, and am always very careful how I word my responses to anything. Whenever there is a response to be made, it is to help or offer advice to solve a problem or just reassure or praise the poster.

Don't knock what you haven't tried, it'll do you well in the long run!

sirdarksol

[quote=b0n3ZA ]
They are capable of surviving the oddest conditions.
Without seeing your fish, though, we have no way of knowing if they're actually thriving. A small pond with no output for waste, other than you periodically overfilling the pond, and no input of food, I doubt that they're thriving. I know a guy who kept a goldfish in a 200g tank without feeding/changing water/adding water, and the fish lasted for months. Just because the goldfish lived, doesn't mean that it was thriving. Goldfish are carp, which means you're right about one thing, they can survive quite a bit. They are very hardy fish.
What we usually mean when we're talking about the goldfish not being hardier than tropicals is that they can't just live in a bowl with no filtration. They put out far too much waste for that to be a sure thing. Yes, some goldfish will survive in such a bowl, but a human being might survive being shot center mass by a .45.

armadillo

Tim, all I've got to say is you write so well. Nice to bring this point up with tact, dignity, objectivity and calm.

Bryn

thank you sirdarksol.

"Don't knock it unless you've tried it!"
ive tried it. i've had friends and family who've also tried it. that is simply how i feel and most ppl who ever like to keep nice fish know that gold fish arnt great fish to keep if you like personality or a good range of colour.
this is why i have put the links.
Timg im not paying your gold fish out, i actually think its kool that you have them in with nice angels. just stating that its best! not to keep the two differnt types together as if you read anywhere you'll see im not just making up rubbish.
And just because people do it and think there better then others who dont or havent. doesnt mean we cant .... its because we wont because we actually have love for our fish and only want whats best for them like you should. again telling us you have is great but not reccommended to people to actually do.
Thank you again.

timg

Comments like this are where thought comes in. This could very easily be taken as offensive, incinuating that I don't care about my fish! I will ignore the comment though, since everyone on here knows just how much I do care about my fish, and the way others treat fish too. Please start to take more care over your wording of replies. If you were to visit my home, you would see just how much time and devotion I have for my fish, and thoughts like that would never enter your head again!

When your fish start to respond in the way mine do, and return the love and attention you give them by spontaneous breeding, feeding from your hand, looking when you enter the room, swimming up to the glass to welcome you when you approach, swimming between your fingers when you are trying to do some maintenance and swimming into the net when you put it into the tank, waiting for you to move them, then you have their trust, then you KNOW that you are doing the right thing for them, then you KNOW the fish are happy. Until then, be a gentleman and leave your personal feelings out of this type of thread.

sirdarksol

This is precisely what I experienced when I first had my koi and goldfish in my community tank. They grew to recognize my footsteps and anticipated me entering the room. (They would actually ignore if my wife entered the room). They were happy in that tank.
As I've said before, it wasn't temperature or that other fish were picking on the koi and goldfish, it was the fact that they outgrew the tank that made me move them.

My post was not directed at timg's methods. It was directed at the idea that it was ok to let goldfish live in algae-choked water with no filtration, food, or care. From what I've read of timg's posts, both here and elsewhere, he cares for his fish and his aquariums very well. Everybody's methods are different. I'm often the one who's pointing out that it's not that goldfish need cold water, it's that they naturally have a water temperature that changes pretty drastically with the seasons, whereas tropical fish usually have a more or less constant temperature.

It's obvious that you both love your fish, and that you both have methods that you have established, and more importantly, that work, so there's really no need to argue about it.