haedra

My tank was initially cycled, when I decided to add a bamboo shrimp and a golden mystery snail exactly 8 days ago.

And for these 8 days, I have been back in the depression of ammonia Land; back to worrying what I'm going to wake up to every morning, back to obsessively counting my creatures and making sure they are all alive.

I have been testing twice daily, and doing daily water changes while treating with Amquel+ and Novaqua+. And still my the ammonia readings keep hanging on.

To give a brief synopsis; the ammonia started creeping up slowly. It took probably 2 or 3 days to increase to .5ppm. But since then, even with daily water changes, it continues to rise; and this morning it was 1ppm.

I don't know what else to do... I DO vacuum the substrate, but I do it gently.. so while I am getting alot of random bits coming out, the gravel isn't getting so disturbed that I might be killing off bacteria living on its surface. But this is just my opinion.

The only brown on my hornwort looks to be a very little bit of diatoms on a few leaves. The rest of it looks quite healthy, so I doubt that there's rotting plant material in there. I feed my tank lightly, too. So I guess I just don't understand.. I know snails poop alot, but don't people successfully keep them in 2.5 gallon tanks with a betta?? And this is a 10 gallon...

I am so frustrated, and so worried over my corys that they are going through this again, after having been through the whole Safe Start process (the other thread I've got up). While I know it's a bit of favoritism, they are my FIRST PRIORITY. The shrimp and the snail are cool, but I love my corys; and I don't want to lose them. So I guess you could say I am at a bit of an impasse. I still have another empty 2.5 gallon that I am desperate enough to put the snail and the shrimp into, just so I can get the corys living comfortably again, at least as a temporary solution until I can come up with something better. I don't know what to do. I know I could keep on with the daily water changes, but frankly I just don't want the corys living in any ammonia readings for another day.

I realize there could be something else going "wrong" here, but I just don't know what it could be.. if my hornwort looks healthy. I've even been probably more careful then I need to be taking care of it. Not only do I take it out every week or so and shake off loose needles in clean water, but that clean water I dechlorinate first... so I am never adding residual chlorine to my tank.

I am very sad and frustrated right now. (I felt this required 3 hair pulling smileys).

haedra

Ok, how bout this...

There is a small amount of hornwort needles that get sucked against my filter intake. Would this be enough to cause the problem with the ammonia? Or is it still likely the snail and the shrimp..

Shawnie

awwwww haedra..im sorry you are going thru this again!!!

the only thing I can think of is the bio load was too much for the new cycled tank..but I cant imagine that 1 shrimp, 1 snail, and your 4 cories would overload a 10 gal that bad...but maybe because its relatively newly cycled, it did ..snails do have a bioload of about 2 gals per snail...I dont think your plant would be the reason unless you see alot of decay...what are your nitrate readings? that would jump too if your plant was dieing...I hope everything works out for you

haedra

My only other thought was what you had suggested; about the tank being newly cycled.

I haven't tested the nitrate in a little while, as I've almost been too scared that I feel like I can't trust the results, for the following reasons. One, I had apparently filled my tank initially with a high nitrate reading, even when it had no fish in it; as my tap water comes straight out of the tap with about 30ppm of nitrates. Once I discovered this, I started treating my "new" water (for water changes) with Amquel+ to detoxify the nitrate going in the tank. Kordon told me that the nitrate detoxing works just like the ammonia detoxing; in that all it does is break the bonds, so that it is "safe" for fish, but the plant can still use the detoxed nitrate. Thus, I feel like my tests for it would be as unreliable in that sense, in that my test kit will still detect the detoxed nitrate and I cannot get a true reading on what is in there.

Honestly, the only time I felt I had a little sense of what was going on in the tank with the nitrate was 5 days after I added the hornwort initially, before the tank was cycled enough to produce a fair amount of nitrate (in my opinion), as the nitrate readings actually went down by 10ppm from the initial 30-40; so I took that to mean that the "nutrient sponge" hornwort was using it.

So along with having started with 30ppm of nitrate, then adding a hornwort, then the cycling getting underway and completed... I fear I have no idea what is really happening with that byproduct in my tank.

haedra

Ok, here is another thought, though I am probably over thinking this!

Both before and after I work in my tank, I wash my hands and arms with antibacterial soap (as most bathroom soap tends to be). However, I rinse longer than I wash, in an effort to remove ever last trace of it. I also dry my hands and arms well before I plunge them in the tank.

Could this be an issue?? Or am I sounding really stupid right now.

Shawnie

no not stupid at all..and i do the same thing and worry but hmmm, i guess it could be an issue if the residue isnt gone...but again, extra rinsing and wiping usually takes care of it...im still going to go with an overload of waste for a newly cycled tank...I cant think of anything else unless the test kit is giving you false readings...those cories of yours are tough cookies!!

sirdarksol

I'm gonna agree with Shawnie: Too much bioload (you mentioned dead plant needles, which will add to the bioload as they rot). I don't think you necessarily overloaded the tank, it was just a bit too much, too soon. It wouldn't take much to swing the numbers, and cories are sensitive little fish.

cerianthus

I must have missed your other threads. How old is the tank since you added first fish? How are pH, nitrite (NO2) readings?

What I meant was how are pH and nitrite today since experiencing some NH3 problem after what seemed like cycled tank. It could be the added bioload but checking pH and NO2 as well wont hurt, imo.

haedra

For a very long and detailed explanation of every ocurrance, check my safe start thread in my blog. I can't imagine there's any information missing there.

I think you guys are right. Being too soon seems like a likely explanation. As far as the hornwort, while it seemed to be growing well, I have taken it out for now. I'm not confident that it wasn't losing needles beyond my scope of vision, because when I did the water change today and moved my airstone there was alot more plant stuff floating around that was not visible before. I am now afraid that I might have shot myself in the foot by taking it out, possibly due to less surface area being in the tank, or because of the at least a little help it was probably doing to keep the readings lower than they might have been. I might go back to java fern. At least I know that won't make such a mess, and it can grow in the average light I think I have.

The corys.. they have been troopers. While I know people have had great success with safe start, I don't think I'll ever use it again; except for circumstances you cannot avoid, like mini cycles, or disrupting the biological filter be medicating. I think in that circumstance, it would be a great product; but I'm unwilling to use it on a new tank again.

Sorry for all these edits...

On that token, should I choose not to go with java fern; any other fast growers (since I know java fern is slow), that preferably float, and aren't messy.. that would also be ok with the 15w fluorescent bulb in my 10 gallon tank?

sirdarksol

Anacharis is supposed to be a good floating plant, but I've had bad luck with it. I can never keep it alive.

haedra

What about duckweed? Or is this so prolific as to be a pain in the behind?

sirdarksol

Yes and no. Duckweed, if it can survive in your tank, will likely grow to entirely cover the surface of the water (which isn't always bad, but that depends on your stock). It needs to be thinned out periodically.
However, in most aquaria, duckweed won't survive, because it can't handle current. HOBs generally produce enough current to inhibit its growth.

haedra

Ah, well then duckweed is out for sure. The surface in my tank is fairly well agitated.

I don't know. I really really want live plants to work, for all the benefits they provide. But I don't have a green thumb to begin with, so I'm considering just giving up on them and going with fake plants.

sirdarksol

If you want a ridiculously easily-cared-for plant, get a bundle of Java moss or Christmas moss.
Buy a bag of oranges (the kind that come in the orange plastic net). Eat said oranges. Cut the top and bottom of the bag away, and cut down the side so you are left with a large sheet of the stuff.

Place the moss on whatever you want it to grow on (a new terra cotta pot works well), and wrap in the plastic net. The net will hold it down, and the moss will grow out through the net in a few weeks, until you have a big ball of moss in your aquarium.

haedra

That seems like a great idea! I will keep that in mind, for sure.

The only thing I am slightly afraid of is killing the java moss. I had a bunch of it in my small tank.. I thought I killed it, but now I don't know. The color didn't look right, and there were tiny pieces of it that got EVERYWHERE.

I really meant it when I said I didn't have a green thumb.. LOL. My house has been filled with fake plants since 1992 due to having killed everything green.

haedra

Not sure if this has been the source of my problem, but thought I would add additional information.

Upon doing my daily water change I moved the two ornaments in my tank to opposite ends for aesthetic reasons. When I did that, there was a whole lotta multi-colored (by that I mean debris, not just poop) floating around the water. Should I make a habit of lifting up decorations to vacuum underneath them?? I guess I was assuming wrongly that there shouldn't be anything congregating under there.

In part, I've been trying not to disturb the gravel TOO MUCH because I didn't want to lose any bacteria in its surface.. but if my tank is remaining too dirty this way, maybe it's a catch 22? If the bulk of the colonies are on the filter media anyway, should I just be more thorough and vac underneath these items?

For the record, seeing all that gunk go up my siphon was supremely satisfying, lol.

Shawnie

what color is your gravel? thats probably what you are seeing...and every other vac I lift everything

haedra

My gravel is black, the debris was all shades of white to brown. For all I know what I was sucking up was planaria remains.. I don't know. I did have visible planaria on my glass for only maybe 2 days early on in the first two weeks of my cycling; but whatever on the glass either retreated or was eaten, as that was a time period where the corys were obsessively nibbling at all the glass, and decorations.

Shawnie

any decorations that might be peeling? poor gal you have had more problems..really once things settle, fish keeping is fun!!

haedra

Hehe, I hope so! No, all decorations look completely intact. In fact, even more "colorful," if you count some brown from the diatoms,

The debris didn't look like anything "unnatural" so to speak, as in anything non organic. Or maybe my water is truly harder than I thought. Now, one of the decorations is a large cave, so there truly would be the possibility of poop collecting under there, especially because the corys did and still do indeed spend time in there nibbling at the interior surfaces. And the shrimp and snail both have been hanging out in there.

I wonder.. do you think it was possible that I was sucking up planaria, even though there's been none on the glass now for a couple weeks? I had been wondering during these water changes what the corys would be finding so interesting to nibble at after a water change...

Shawnie

could have sucked up just about anything I guess....although id think the cories would have gotten most of them...I want some more sterbai's soooooooo bad and been waiting patiently for my LFS to get some in....grrrr...they are my ultimate favs ...so hopefully soon!! hows yours hanging in there?

haedra

They still seem to be doing ok, regardless of all this stress they have gone through. I hope things are under control soon. I became attached to them so quickly that losing any of them now would break me.

Shawnie

I know they are such great fish that it is heartbreaking..but you are doing ALL you can so have the faith!!!!

prairielilly

So sorry to hear about your trouble haedra...

When I first set up my 20g in October last year, I didn't deep-clean the gravel. I'd just hover the vacuum over it and suck up anything on top. I never moved any ornaments either. What I eventually ended up with was a whole bunch of feathery brown-white gunky stuff floating around my tank and coating all the substrate. I had some further issues, don't know if this was a contributing factor or not. Point being my gravel wasn't clean. I thought I was doing it right, I certainly was trying and wanted the best for my fish, but I just didn't know any different at that time.

Now when I gravel vac (once a week) I stir everything up so anything down there comes loose and the vac takes it all away. I move the ornaments and vac under them every second week. My gravel is pristine clean and I have yet to have a mini cycle.

I don't know if this applies to your situation...but yes I would encourage you to gravel vac deeper.

I hope your cories continue to do well (: Good luck!

haedra

So I wake up this morning, and as seems to be the tradition my ammonia has creeped to 1.0ppm. If the amqel+ detoxes ammonia for 24 hours, what would you do to proceed:

-dose the entire tank, detoxing the ammonia but also making my test results fairly unreliable, in being unable to determine how much is "toxic" and how much is "detoxed" tomorrow? And then of course, doing another water change tomorrow morning.

-or just do a water change and adjusting my dose to the amount of water replaced to bring the level down.

I have also been watching inhabitants closely for signs of distress, and yet again like last time I don't see any. In truth, I as well have at least once or twice over this week put a tank-sized dose in my new water instead of an adjusted dose, so for all I know some of this ammonia showing up on my results might be some of the "detoxed" ammonia (unless my thinking is incorrect).

God I'm so sick of this and I want this to stabilize again. I'm a worrywart to begin with, it doesn't take much for me to worry and now here I am again worrying every moment about my fishy children.

Shawnie

just keep up the daily changes....ive not used amquel but if it works like the prime or stress coat+, the fish are happy because it makes ammonia safer for them but you still will get a reading on your testing...what test kit again? if its API, it wont tell the difference in non toxic or toxic ammonia..its all ammonia .....again im not sure with amquel but the others, when you do 50% changes you treat the entire tank not just the water putting back..cheering hard for your babies!!!!!!!!!

haedra

It's the API liquid ammonia test kit for "both freshwater and salt water," and color results go from yellow to green (I hope that is specific enough! lol). Reason I mention those specifics, is that apparently there is an API ammonia test kit that is only for fresh water, and color chart goes from yellow to amber. I am unsure of the differences between those two tests, but I have read that the one that goes from yellow to amber is "not compatible" with amquel, though I have no idea at all what that means.

Ok, I will continue the water changes then treating for the whole tank. I THINK the major difference between prime and amquel+ is the cost per dose, though that would have to be confirmed by people who have used both, as I have never used Prime. It does say on the back of the amquel bottle to "always allow 24 hours between standard doses," whatever that means.

Shawnie

mine is the one that goes from yell to green..its the master kit tho...and it will pick up any ammonia as I said....the 24 hours is when the next water change is due and adding more of the amquel just like the prime or stress coat+ ...its deffinately frustrating and im there with you!! I hope it cleans up fast! you are doing everything you can !!

haedra

I've been using the Amqel so often I think I'm getting used to the smell... lol

The only thing that makes me a little uncomfortable when I use a tank sized dose of this stuff; is that when I do, I notice that they are at least a little bit less energetic, and one or more of them seems to have a higher rate of respiration. Now, it does say as a disclaimer of sorts on the bottle that it can temporarily reduce the oxygen levels; and to increase aeration. However, upon further reading at their website in more detail it says that in order for this temporary reduction in oxygen levels to be harmful, the tank would have low oxygen levels to begin with; and have little aeration as well.

I am already running a HOB and an airstone, and while I realize that this still isn't as much surface movement as a powerhead, my tank is small... and the water surface is actually fairly well agitated.

As well, I RARELY see the corys go and take gulps from the surface, even after this water treatment. As well, I've only even seen the snail near the surface once, and it was only briefly.

I'm wondering why they might act like this after a water change.. if conceivably they should be in much better conditions than before the water change??

Or of course I could be overly worried and imagining this.

haedra

Well... here's where I am at today.

Maybe there is an end in sight, soon. I hope! While the ammonia did it's usual increase overnight, it did not increase as much as it has been... so maybe there is a light at the end of the tunnel. I'll still need to do a water change today, but finally it seems to be slowing down.

For the record prairie, I took your advice and have been pushing the vac down to the bottom of the gravel. Turns out there was much more "stuff" hiding in the gravel than I initially thought; along with more hornwort needles that somehow got wedged underneath the top layer of gravel. Each day I do these water changes I am getting less and less gunk coming out. So maybe all along it was a problem with my vac technique, and I was just "on the edge" so to speak of overwhelming my biological filter; and then adding the two new creatures pushed it over the edge. While your logic makes perfect sense to me, and as well I have heard that most of the bacteria live in the filter; and combined with that I have a filter with a "bio grid," for some reason I kept going vac-shy when I was cleaning, due to having seen a few places that deep vacuuming could cause a mini cycle. But now that I've seen how much can find its way to the bottom of my gravel bed, what you've said makes more sense to me.

So, here's to hoping this will clear up soon!