haedra

This might be a long one. Bear with me. In the interest of avoiding continued hijacking of the previous thread, I started my own.

Let me just start by saying I'm annoyed. I'm annoyed, because I'm a worrywart in every way in my life.. so of course, this has taken its toll on me so far; because I do not like things I start to feel I have less control over.

1/31/09- I set up my tank, and ran it empty at that point. I had planned on starting out with the betta; and since I did not have him yet, I figured I'd just let it run anyway, in an effort to make sure everything was working properly.

2/1/09-my first experience with a bacterial bloom in a fishless tank. Frustrating, but after some research came to understand how you can end up with a bloom in a fishless tank.

2/6/09-researched Corydoras, asked in forums (hadn't found this one yet), and finally asked Tetra: "would it be better to add my bottle of Safe Start with my corydoras (closer to full stock level), than with the betta?" My thoughts were adding a bottle of safe start to a 10 gallon tank with a single betta would be a waste. Tetra replies "yes that would be a better idea, no four sterbai corydoras and one betta is not overstocking a 10 gallon tank." I took this advice and added 4 sterbas and my entire bottle of safe start as instructed, at 9pm.

2/7/09-(9am) I test my water and see 0ammonia, and .25 nitrite. At 12pm, I add a bunch of hornwort stems, left floating.

2/8/09-water tests reveal .25ammonia, .25 nitrite. It is after this result I believe that I initially posted on that other thread; hence I stop my obsessive water testing.. and watch and wait.

2/9/09-finally now, my water, which had been cloudy since 2/1, is starting to clear. Not completely, but mostly. It is right around this time that I also discover I have a high amount of nitrate in my tap water (at least 30ppm). After hunting different alternatives, I opted to purchase Amquel+ to use in the tap water I use for water changes. I also speak with Kordon; who answers my myriad of questions relating to how their product works. They tell me the product does not REMOVE the nitrates, but detoxifies them.. leaving them still useable to plants.

2/10/09-Still not testing my water, but one fish has noticeably flashed against the gravel a few times. This behaviour stops as quickly as it starts.

2/11/09-Still not testing my water, but making sure fish are not showing signs of irritation from ammonia or nitrite. The brief flashing behavior from the day before does not reappear.

2/12/09-My water is now completely clear, bloom is gone. I test my water and find: 1ppm ammonia, 0nitrite, and my nitrates have gone DOWN since my hornwort has been in there. The 1ppm ammonia concerns me, so I email Tetra with this information. The response I receive tells me that "toxic" level of ammonia is 1.5ppm, and that if the ammonia crept that high, I could do a PWC. Having learned AFTER THE FACT that corys were more sensitive to these nitrogen cycle byproducts, I was still uncomfortable with that level of ammonia; so I did a 20% or so PWC with Amquel+ treated water. There are still no further signs of fish distress.

2/13/09- *my birthday!* ammonia is testing lower.. but looks to be as much lower related to my water change. Hasn't increased, but only looks to have decreased by maybe 20%. Still concerned, but trying to give it time. Watching the fish very very closely for signs of distress, and finding none.

2/14/09-still same ammonia level as day before. Still no nitrite, except for that one day in the very beginning. Test ammonia again in the afternoon (around 4pm) and come up with probably .75ppm.

2/15/09-still getting somewhere between .5 and .75 ammonia. Getting real frustrated with ammonia being in the tank now for this long. I do a 30-40% water change to give the fish some relief, even though I still see no signs of distress. I contact Tetra again at this point (they hate me now), asking about this issue. I am told that my ammonia might continue to spike, and it might take another week for everything to stabilize. They tell me again (when I ask for the second time) that my tank is not overstocked. They also tell me that they got ammonia readings like this in some of their own tests of the product. And I find a hitchhiking pond snail in my tank. I also discover planaria. Yay{squared}. Having seen planaria before though, I cut down on feeding for the corys a bit.

2/16/09-Both morning and afternoon ammonia tests come out at .5 ammonia still. Fish still acting normal. The new thing I have now is a very earthy smell; albeit not unpleasant, more like a heavily planted forest. With one smaller meal a day now, the corys are nibbling everything in sight; the tank walls, the ornaments, my silk plant, and very rarely the real one. Are they eating planaria? Maybe. All I know is that I haven't seen very many of them, and even fewer since I lightened up of the corys feedings.

2/17/09-Still sitting on .5 ammonia. Still no nitrites except for the test I did after the first 12 hours. Hornwort is almost doubled in size. If I follow Tetra's advice and stop worrying about it, it might go away overnight. But in the meantime, I watch the corys closely and worry that eventually this ammonia will catch up to them. Call me annoyed and frustrated with a capital A and F.

That is as much detail as I believe I can provide. I apologize in advance if all this makes anyone's eyeballs fall out by the end of it.

docjr03

I used the stress zyme plus that came with my start up aquarium and it took almost 3 weeks to get nitrites showing, and the tank was cycled about a week later. Hopefully you are on the same path as me

haedra

Through all of this, I do have one question.

I have a 2 gallon tank that is cycled. Would it "speed up" this ditch I feel I'm in if I were to take anything from that one and put it in the 10 gallon? I have maybe a half inch of gravel in there.. so I can't spare much of it I think. It has a whisper internal filter.

Or is there nothing I can do but ride this out.

Shawnie

cycling isnt anything fun...I wish they could bottle up patience with it!!! took me 9 weeks but unfortunately I did it with fish and bio spira ...which worked amazing on the last week of the 9 LOL ...

even tho you did what you felt was right, changing the water with the tetra safe start after it was in there for 6 days might have stalled things down...7-10 days is usually what it takes...although alot of us freak by still seeing ammonia after 5-6...hence why they say dont test ...at this point, the daily water changes are about all to do to finish it up ....im not sure about the amquel but prime or stress coat+ will detox the ammonia for 24 hours until another water change and still keeps it available for the cycle process...I wouldnt worry so much about the nitrates in your water as it would only be a partial amount that goes in with the changes and once the tank is cycled completely, the bacteria and plants will eat that up....goodluck and if I had extra patience, id gladly send some to you!!!!!!

EDIT: ANYTHING solid from the cycled tank can be put in the 10 gal to speed it up..decorations, subtrate, pieces of the filter media are the bestest

haedra

Thanks! I wish I had patience too...LOL

I guess this is all making me so antsy because of my first failed experience with having a tank (but this was like 10 years ago). So I am trying really hard to do the best I can this time around.

The 2 gallon tank only houses my betta. Is there enough of a colony established on the gravel you think that I could take out his cartridge for a spell and put it in the new tank? They are different filters, but maybe I could just hang it in there. I can't take out his hollowed tree stump though! He loves it too much. Shame too, because there's lots of nooks and crannies on the stump.

Now I realize the challenge in cycling a small tank like a 2 gallon is KEEPING it cycled, but at least I did manage to get it cycled... I don't want to mess up the equilibrium in there though.

I think whats getting my nerves up about all this is having read that corys were sensitive to these things. I love them already; they won me over with their playfulness.

And they must have eaten the planaria...because the few that were there seem to be gone! And that makes me all kinds of "Monty Python finding the Holy Grail" type happy.

Shawnie

hahahaah @ monty python ..and im sure the cories ate them..the sterbai are my ultimate fav cory specie.....LOVE THEM.. but yes super sensitive but you know this now ...you are doing well and it is just patience at this point...dont put your betta filter on there as it will throw the 2 gal into a mini cycle probably...I didnt realize your 2 gal was a home to a fishie...so his health is important also...so back to the grind of daily water changes

jdhef

First let me say I have sterbas in a tank that went bad on me. For some reason I went into a mini cycle. It killed my dwarf rainbow fish, but the sterbas made it through just fine.

Secondly, adding the cories first is much safer than putting the betta in first. If the betta is in first, he is more likely to attack intruders into his territory.

Thirdly, if your pH is under 7 you actually have ammonium instead of ammonia in your tank. Ammonium, while not disireable, is far less toxic to fish than ammonia.

So I hope this quells some of your fear/frustration. Best of luck!

haedra

Thanks guys. I do feel a bit better. I'm just a perfectionist in some ways, and hate when I can't make some things go exactly the way I want them to! lol

I'm trying to look at my sterbas as "x-men" sterbas. Maybe they don't show any negative effects because they have special ammonia resisting powers.

Well that's what I would like to believe! Hey, you never know.

CWO4GUNNER

I may not be morally right with my method but I believe you have to have something at stake when cycling like live fish as well as some natural processes to get things going like live real fish poop. I'm sure that when these bacteria were created they were not the result of an empty rivers oceans or lakes but were the product of demand and therefore were supplied. Like treating a patient all I did during my fish-full cycle was treat the symptoms one at a time with what is currently available and most importantly monitor the patient constantly. In all it tool me all of 6 weeks to get over the final hump of ammonia 8PPM cycling and into the valley of high nitrates 60PPM treating with every weapon in the book simultaneously until finally by the end of week 7 it was all over. By far the most effective enduring weapon for me was strict use of the ammonia toxicity tables by controlling PH and water temp NH3 was consistently rebuffed even past 8PPM considerations, this was like a fall back shield between the unmeasurable spikes and gaps of Prime dosing, water changes and re-dosing. The second most effective tool IMO was the ability to deal with consistently high spike ammonia 8PPM+ readings that would not relent regardless of water changes, the emergency action of rinsing and squeezing out dirty filter media in aquarium water during the cycle period effectively and dramatically lowered ammonia levels back to manageable levels of 4PPM. Again manageable with consideration of the NH3 toxicity tables. The third was consistent aeration which kept oxygen levels high for both fish and good bacteria growth and a stop gap against deadly overnight oxygen depleting bacteria bloom. Finally the measured use of the UV Sterilizer which was instrumental during during cycle but only when bacteria and algae bloom threaten to get out of control the UV filter quickly killed the free floating excess without hurting surface bacteria or surface algae and also stopped pathogens disease from spreading IMO. Before bring all these tools to bare in an overlapping defense is when I had gaps and lost my 4 out of 28 fish. All of these including the use of chemicals treatments made for relatively effective cycle. The only thing I would change is the use of much fewer fish about 1 per 10 gals, probubly Barbs since they did so well.

haedra

Did I mention that every day I don't see what I'd like, it's a bit like waiting for a tax refund that isn't showing up on your bank statement? Yea... or like going down the stairs as a kid and seeing that santa didn't come yet.

Ok that was my bit of whining and complaining for a disappointing morning. I'll stop now until tomorrow.

*edited to add*

Rather than make a new post I thought I would add to this one.

I need names for these guys. I still can't figure out anything cool... because while I can tell a couple of them apart, it is still hard to do it.

They do not seem to all have the same personality, which just adds to my love of them. I have an airstone in there, that one in particular seems to rather enjoy more than they others (see below).



There are two that look "plumper" than the other two, which leads me to believe they are females.. though of course I might be wrong. It is also those two who seem to spend the most time nibbling at my glass and decorations the most, for whatever reasons... though likely the planaria spent their brief lives shivering in fear of the cory mouth.

Any ideas? My brain has been so stressed through all this that I have been unable to tax it further trying to come up with names!

haedra

Sorry to bump my own post, but this really is completely related to this situation.

I've been monitoring the fishies carefully. I've had ammonia readings now for a week that have refused to lower (approx. .75ppm). Now, yesterday morning it was .5, so it did seem to come down a little on its own. At this point, I did a PWC of approx. 3 gallons or so, but I did the following: I dosed the new water with enough Amquel+ to handle the entire tank, as I had seen suggested elsewhere.

Now, up to this afternoon. I just did another ammonia test, and it is either 0 or slightly above (I say this because my eyes have difficulty seeing it when it is that close to a color). But I don't know if I should get excited about this yet.

I've looked on Kordon's website, and if you look at their detailed product description, the ammonia detoxification is described like the following: "it breaks the bonds in the molecules, but does not remove it; thus it is rendered safe for fish, but is still in a form that the bacteria will process, and as a result does not affect the nitrogen cycle." But the thing is, I am not aware if my test kit can tell the difference between detoxified ammonia and straight up ammonia or not. I use the API liquid test kit for ammonia that says it's for both freshwater and saltwater (so the scale goes from yellow to green). I've read that this kit is "compatible" with Amquel+, but I'm not sure what this means exactly. Does this mean if my kit tells me my ammonia is 0, that my bacteria is processing it? Or, is my kit not finding the "detoxified" ammonia, so I am getting that result purely because of the addition of the Amquel+? My logic tells me that even if the kit really isn't detecting the detoxified ammonia.. that my "toxic" ammonia level would still not be 0, and would have risen purely because the fish must certainly still be giving off waste! But I admit I am confused.

Any clarification is appreciated.

CWO4GUNNER

If you want to verify that the ammonia has been neutralized you need a test kit that test for the only deadly NH3 portion of the ammonia. The same company that make Prime make an NH3 test kit. I used it to verify both Ammo lock and Prime against compared to using lower PH and temperature (PH 6.8/74F) alone. While the test were conclusive that all three are effective, the differences in effectiveness were not consistent because the test kit was not that accurate and I sent it back for a refund. What was conclusive was that while using Temp/PH to control toxicity in ammonia was quantifiable using the toxicity tables at all times even without a test kit, detoxifiers effectiveness were not measurable between time and water change dosings and or over dosing. But together (PH/Temp/detox) is an almost impenetrable protection against ammonia even as high as 8PPM when used in conjunction with water chnages.

Shawnie

amquel will not give you a 0 reading for ammonia if ANY is present...the test kit you are using is fine...if you got a 0 , then the bacteria is processing it not the amquel....your test kit will pick up ANY ammonia ...detoxed or not...so you are on the right track! did you test tonite for nitrite and nitrates also?

haedra

That's the funny thing, the only time I ever got a nitrIte reading was the second day after adding the safe start, and that reading was .25ppm. It also went down to 0 after that, and hasn't risen since. Now there MUST have been nitrIte processing going on, because unless I have a special breed of fish that don't poo at all or excrete any ammonia... then there has been ammonia processing going on this entire time, it was just hanging at around .75ppm and got "stuck" so to speak. But I still do not have any nitrItes. This kind of jives with what Tetra told me on the phone though... as he said that "in their own tests, ammonia took longer to stabilize."

As far as monitoring nitrates, that is tough for me to do.. because at a point after I had everything set, I found out I had 30ppm or so nitrates coming straight from my tap, so I had to do a little finagling to work that out. That is actually the reason I ended up purchasing the Amquel+ (I used to use Jungle Start Right). So there actually was a brief period that my nitrates went DOWN form the initial 30 or so I started with (cause of my crappy tap water); which was a period of time after I put in my hornwort. I haven't monitored the nitrates so much because of this issue with my tap. So because I started out with a higher reading to begin with, I've been expecting to see that result actually end up coming down as I do water changes with properly treated water. Although.... that makes me wonder. The guy from Kordon told me that the Amquel "detoxifies" the nitrate (much the same as the ammonia) for the fish, but that it is still in a usable form for plants. Hmm. So now I'm wondering if I'll ever be able to get a reliable nitrate result. I guess there's one way to find out. I'll have to try detoxing some tap water and testing it before I put it in the tank.

So, long story short, my nitrIte is 0!

Shawnie

you dont always see a nitrite reading.sometimes it peeks and goes away so fast, its not always seen....so dont panic about it....what are the exact reading for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate at this point in time?

haedra

ammonia, looks like completely yellow (0) under the hood light over my stove. If I look at it under lesser strength light in the kitchen overhead light, it might look a smidge above zero. So I'm not sure if it is 0, or slightly above. Nitrite is a very obvious turquoise blue big fat old 0. Nitrates, I am showing 20ppm; but again, my nitrate results are serving to confuse me more... because of what I started out with initially.

Shawnie

a cycled tank, will process the nitrates even if its in your tap water....hold the ammonia test against a piece of white paper...id say with the yellow you are seeing, and 0 in nitrites....YOUR CYCLED!

haedra

HAPPY DANCE!

Still 0 for both ammonia and nitrite, second day in a row. Yippee!