ryanr

Hi all,
Please take this in the spirit that it is intended, that is, for your information. I'm not posting this for the purpose of debate, just to share the information.

Anyway, so I got curious about Seachem's Stability (and have read a lot of feedback on the product), but thought I'd ask the question of Seachem themselves.

I asked for two reasons, 1) to find out more about the product, 2) Getting hold of TSS is a longer drive than getting Seachem products.

So here's what I asked:

and here is their reply

So there you have it... Just wanted to pass this on.

I am neither endorsing or discouraging the product, just some info for everyone to make their own decisions.

mosin360

How do you lose the good bacteria during a water change? Unless you throw away the filter, I don't see how you lose any.

Anyway, just seems to me that they have a different idea on the whole thing. Not saying its wrong but I don't see the need to add more when you already have a full colony.

Shawnie

just that part of the answer they gave you, is the reason its not a good reliable product....bacteria isnt free floating and for them to say its removed when changing out water, isnt correct....ppl dont loose their cycle when changing out water...nor do they damage their cycled colonies(if the cycle was done properly)..so for stability to have to be added at EVERY water change, as well as numerous times during the first few weeks, should let everyone know the stability isnt worth the money you pay for it....not to mention, Nitrospira, which is the best bacteria to cycle a tank, is not in stabilty or cycle or many others...synergistic blend of aerobic, anaerobic, and facultative bacteria is whats in cycle, stability etc...its a fake bacteria

sirdarksol

Thanks for looking into this. It's great to hear from them (not that I agree with them).

Mosin is right. The nitrifying bacteria don't like floating in the water, so you don't really lose much if you do a water change. There's something fishy about that.
There's also something fishy about Stability containing aquatic denitrifying bacteria. Denitrifying bacteria operate in anaerobic conditions.

However, this does give some information to check, and I'll likely use this as my next experiment.

Lucy

Good job doing your own research!!

I agree, this quote speaks for it's self:
When a tank is properly cycled without using these additives, there's no reason to add anything except a good water conditioner.

ryanr

Interesting views from everyone so far

The reply about dosing is interesting, and IMO, I agree with that you shouldn't have to add anything to an established tank.

The dosage recommendations advise the product be used for 7-10 days while setting up/cycling, then once a month. IMHO - I reckon this is a sales pitch (i.e. to keep you buying the product long term), but just my opinion.

I also found a similar reply in another thread, so thought best to add it in here too.

From this thread:
Emergency! Help?!?

Shawnie

+2 ...its a great sales pitch that many of US (me included at one time) thought it was fine ....ive also used cycle without the prior knowledge...these companies do great as sales people with very little knowledge other than to sell sell sell ...

Nate McFin

The biggest issue is they dont tell us what it is so we dont know. Seachem is very secretive with their products. Excel is another one that comes to mind. I dont use the stuff anymore as I am convinced it killed some of my Cardinal Tetras. (recommended dosing)
Having said that Seachem makes some great products..I use their entire line of Ferts and have had great results. Prime is a very good product as well.

bubblynutter

i think it's worth adding my two cents to this saga.

I mentioned in another thread that my mate breeds catfish. He swears by Stability, and recommended it to me. He told me he adds it for the first week as per the instructions, but then NEVER adds it again to the tank. I had a serious ammonia problem, so used a combination of Prime, water changes and Stability.

I was cycled in just over a week, have not added it since, and have been cycled for about a month. Since then i have added 10 bristlenose plecs, 10 glowlight tetras and a good-sized 3 spot gourami (not all at the same time!).

I have been a test nazi, after skepticism about Stability from this site. NO ammonia or nitrite spikes, readings consistently 0,0,10-15.
I did not want to post that I used Stability until I was sure it worked. That way I could manage any mini-cycles quietly while backing the skeptics!

While I am not sure enough to recommend it, I will be using it to cycle my 180G in 2 weeks and will post results accordingly.

Hopefully this gives some more information and direct experience to the debate.

ryanr

Awesome, thanks for the feedback.

For the record, I don't work for a LFS/Pet supplies, nor Seachem. But I do love their products so what I suggest on here is opinion only. I do however, believe in spending if the quality is right.

And for us here in lil ol Melbourne, Stability is a lot easier to find than TSS.

I'm sure we'll be hanging out to see the results of your 180G.

Just out of curiosity, what did you use as your ammonia source while cycling? or was it a fish in cycle?

bubblynutter

tell me about trying to find decent products! Can be a nightmare, especially trying to find aussie recommendations!

My ammonia source was 3 honey gouramis, 1 3 spot gourami, 1 angel and 8 clown loaches in a 46g! Lol

midthought

It's interesting to me that people take the view that the reason why the product is bad is because it contains the wrong kind of bacteria -- and not because of bad data/results. Maybe it's just in other threads I haven't seen. I've heard people say that eventually anything but TSS will crash your cycle if the bacteria aren't constantly replenished, but I haven't seen numbers to back that up. My view is it makes sense for them (Seachem, etc.) to take the view that the tank benefits from doses at water changes, because they're trying to sell product. People *here* know that the beneficial bacteria are all living in the substrate, filter, and decor, but it makes sense for many folk (especially those that wind up buying tons of needless product at the pet store anyway to save little Johnny's favorite goldfish in a 2 gallon bowl) to think that, yes, when you take out water, you should probably make sure that the bacteria are replenished for the bacteria that you threw out. It's not scientifically accurate, but I think it makes enough "common sense" to convince Mom to buy a product. After all, most people in stores or in emergencies especially want quick answers, and the LFS is more than happy to give it to them. Seachem, Nutrafin, etc. are patent holders, and they specifically avoid saying that the extra doses are *required*, usually just "highly recommended" so it seems to me like a marketing tactic that's been put through the desk of a lawyer. Moreover, TSS is a patent product too, so is it actually less mysterious than the other companies' products? Tetra also recommends that you dose TSS during water changes, so is that just a marketing gimmick that's overlooked because it's nonetheless the right kind of bacteria?

P.S. I've seen people point to the fact that product X doesn't require refrigeration, has nothing to live on (no source of ammonia), has too long a shelf-life, etc. for it to contain the right bacteria, but I just want to point out that TSS doesn't require refrigeration either.

P.S.S. As for disclaimers, I'm not affiliated at all with any of the above companies. I did use Cycle when I was first cycling my tank because my LFSes didn't carry TSS, and for me, my tank cycled in just a few days and has appeared completely stable in the two months since. Whatever problems my fish may be having has been due to anything but a cycle crash. I was told, however, that Cycle working was a fluke and not to buy it again. Anyway, I'm mostly just playing devil's advocate here, but it is interesting to me the level of product loyalty here. I'd love most of all to see numbers put up side by side of these products.

sirdarksol

We've had members use Stability, Cycle, etc... and have their tank crash when they stopped using it. With me, it was Cycle. However, most people want to know the why: why does it work, why doesn't it work. Therefore, we give the why when we talk about the product.

Tetra says it can be used after water change. Stability says it should be used monthly or after every water change. It's a small difference, but an important one. (And yes, I do think that even the "can be used after every water change" is a dirty marketing tactic, but I overlook it because TSS works.)

I'm hopeful that bubblynutter's friend has found a method of using Stability that doesn't get the tank addicted to it, because that would be great.

midthought

Hmm. Okay, that's good to know. Thank you for responding. May I ask how long it took for your tank to crash after you stopped using Cycle? And how long ago that was?

I wonder if the people at Tetra know that they're the gold standard in this business for this kind of thing, heh.

Red1313

Tetra only bought the rights to "TSS" a year ago. Prior to that it was developed under a different name and a different company. All tetra did was work on a new line that doesn't require refrigeration. I can't remember what the original product was called though...

Shawnie

Bio Spira

Red1313

lol thanks Shawnie

sirdarksol

When I used Cycle, it took a bit over a week. That was a few months before I joined Fishlore (sorry, I can't see my data from here, but it will be just to the left of this post, I think )

That's why they bought BioSpira in the first place, because it was the standard in the industry. For awhile, it was the only thing that worked for almost everyone. Things are looking up now. There are other companies developing similar products.

midthought

Well it eases my mind that my tank's been up and running following a cycle jumpstart from Cycle for more than that and hasn't crashed then.

sirdarksol

Yep. The stuff sometimes works, and it seems to work spectacularly when it does. The issue is that it doesn't work regularly, and when it doesn't work, it fails just as spectacularly. That's why most of us don't suggest it.

bubblynutter

well, you all seemed interested to hear how I went with the 180G and Stability.

I set up the tank on Apr 24. I used seeded material on day 1, and let the tank clear for 24hrs. I checked the levels after 24hrs (flat 0's all round) and added the 8 (small) clown loaches and 2 three spot gouramis.

After 48 hours (end of day 3) I was still showing zeros all round.

Day four I had a small spike in ammonia, between 0 and 0.25. Day 6 showed ammonia of 0.5. I dosed with Prime as I couldn't do a water change.

Day 7 saw ammonia of 1.0. Water change followed.
It was now plainly obvious that the seeding had failed, as I had no readings of nitrates at all.

I started dosing with Stability on day 8. It is now day 10 and my readings are:
ammonia - 0.25
nitrite - 0.50
nitrate - 5
pH - 7.2

what do you all think?

ryanr

Very interesting, bubbly, especially considering Stability is easier to find in Melbourne as opposed to finding TSS. To be honest, I haven't actually found TSS in Melb yet...

Keep us all informed, and especially so once the cycle is finished to see if it holds (this is the main area of contention)

And a huge thanks for keeping the research going. It can only go to benefit all members.

Meenu

I think I'm really interested to know what happens after you stop adding it. Please keep posting results.

bubblynutter

Will do Meenu.

I would say I will stop adding after tonight - I just ran out!! 180G takes a lot of Stability...

Tonight's readings were 0.25 (just), 0.5, 10.

jetajockey

i have 3 tanks that I did a stability test in, it has been nearly a week since the last dose and they are still fine. the results were hit and miss.

If there really was a 'crash' factor in there one would expect to see a lot of posts or data backing it up, especially on seachem's forum. At the moment I'm still undecided as to stabilitys helpfulness, although I don't think it hurts anything at all. There's a big thread about this also over on MFK just as an fyi.

bubblynutter

Update - I have not added Stability to the 180 since my last post on this thread (#24, May 5th).

I have not seen any crashing of my cycle. It has been very steady 0,0,5-10 with fortnightly water changes (4 tanks are too many to change weekly!).

That's the second tank I have successfully cycled using Stability. I add the recommended initial dose on Day 1, and the half doses for the following 13 days (less with the 180, as I ran out). I do NOT add any more when introducing fish or doing water changes.

I will not make a recommendation on it, but post my experiences so others can make up their own minds. It has not failed me yet, and I will continue to use it when I do not have access to seeded material.

JMHO and IME.

Lucy

Thank you all for sharing your experience with Stability!

ryanr

Thanks for the update bubbly.

It's good to get some real life experiences on this topic