Reciprocity

OOOOK. So it seems, everytime I add fish to my tank, there are problems. The way I understand it ,my bacterial colony is only big enough for my existing stock, and if I add a few fish, the ammonia spikes because the bio-load is bigger and will return to normal when my bacterial colony grows large enough accomodate the new ammonia/nitrite production.
I have been reading about fishless cycling, however, all the info is on cycling a new tank by introducing ammonia and growing a colony as opposed to a dirty fish producing ammonia and growing a colony. No informationg on how to grow your colony bigger in a tank with existing fish. I'm not about to start adding ammonia to my established tank and stressing my fish to grow my colony when it will happen anyway when I add new fish!? Do I just have to add less fish at a time so the ammonia spike is small......or, am I making some other mistake. I will paste a summary of what happened the last time I added fish so you can better understand. I also did some other things that made my colony smaller before adding the fish, so that may have made it worse, however, this seems to happen EVERY time I add fish when I havn't thrown some of my colony away.

Just added 5 Green neons and Bristlenose Pleco along with all plants last week 1.24.10. Got rid of Horn-rimmed common Pleco due to him eating plants. Did water change and changed all filter media and added fish and plants all same day. Got a more powerfull light to support plant life as well. Dropped 15ml each of Flourish Exel Carbon and Leaf Zone for plants.
Immediately had bacterial bloom. This cleared up naturally without any additives to water after 48 hrs. Then had Ammonia Spike to .50ppm. Fish showing considerable signs of stress, namely the Angelfish and Blue Ram. Angelfish signs of respiratory distress, Blue Ram respiratory distress, lethargy, and hiding. Skipped feeding for that day and Dropped 15ml Ammo Lock, 60 drops of pH Down in tank water, followed by 50% water change 1 day later, and another 50% water change the day after that. Ammonia level back to zero after second water change with no signs of Nitrite spike. All fish recovered showing no more signs of stress and no signs of any disease. Water tested good on all tests.
I think the source of the problem must have been too many fish added for biological filter to handle, as well as the filter media being thrown out (getting rid some some of bacterial colony), along with water change. Too many changes in habitat to sustain consistent nitrogen cycle. Will learn from this and not do it again.

Water Conditions
Nitrates: 5.0ppm
Nitrites: 0 PPM
Ammonia: 0 ppm
PH: 6.6
Temp: 84 degrees F

Fish Inventory

-1 Anglefish 4” (6-8”)
-1 Bristlenose Pleco 1” (4”)
-1 Blue Ram 2” (2-4”)
-1 neon tetra 1” (2”)
-2 Glowlight Tetras 1.5” (full grown)
-2 Columbian red/blue Tetras 2”/2.5” (full grown)
-7 Green Neon Tetra’s 1”or smaller (1.5”)
-? pesky colony of snails

Tank specs:

Filtration system: Aquaripure, 1 Bio Filter without biowheel.
Total inches of Fish = 22.5” (expected to grow to 27.5”)
Total Gallons of water = 30
Total Square inches of surface area =270 sq in.

Plant Inventory

-1 Peacock Fern
-1 Corkscrew Val
-1 Lyonella?
-1 White ribbon (just found out not really aquatic plant, will remove at first sign of decay)
-1 Myriophyllum
-1 1/2 ft. long driftwood

Meenu

Welcome to FL
Please forgive me, but I didn't read your entire post - tired eyes

I feed my fish a little extra for a few days before I add fish. That way, there is a little extra waste, so it builds up the bacteria colony a bit. Also, add 2-3 fish at a time with about 3 weeks in between additions, and you should get minimal spikes.

edit to add: don't use pH adjusters. They can be VERY unstable and crash your tank. Most fish will adjust to your tank's pH without a problem. If you want to lower pH, do it naturally by adding peat to the filter or driftwood to the tank. Your pleco would like to munch on some driftwood anyway.

Reciprocity

Thanks, Yeah, it's a long post, ok you didn't read it all. I do have a driftwood and I have heard that PH adjusters are dangerous. I just got desperate when I saw my fish in distress and heard if I lower my ph, the ammonia wont hurt there gills so bad.

Meenu

daily water changes with Prime water conditioner will help a lot. Prime will detoxify the ammonia for 24 hours at a time, until the next water change. Much safer way of getting ammonia under control than pH down.

I am not a chemist, and not positive, but I think that Prime converts ammonia into safer ammonium, which is also what lowering the pH does.

Butterfly

Yes adding fewer fish will help solve your problem. Fewer fish = smaller need for bacteria growth. It's also easier for the other fish in your tank to get used to them if their not overwhelmed with newbie fish to acclimate to and defend their territories from.
Meenu that's how I understand it also
Carol

TedsTank

Add your angel fish last. The other little guys need time to establish. If the angel is in there first, he may attack the little ones, because they invaded his territory!

Reciprocity

Yes, I did notice that he attacked them in their baggies. but he got over them fairly quickly, tank is heavily planted and there are lots of places to hide. And he was supposed to be last, but my tetra school was depleated by some bad fish (hate petco/petsmart, lesson learned) and I waited 6 mo before getting them, in wich time I got the Angel. BTW on that note, I Really want one more angel!!!! But it looks like I may not be able too have another based on what I've been reading. If I got another, there would be some fighting and the fact that my current angel is 4in and the ones at the pet store are roughly 2 in, I'm not sure how it will go. Do you think my hiding places will save him, or should I just give up the dream? I'm also worried my tank is to small, I've been hearing mixed reviews on that subject, fish supplier says no, but hey, they want to sell me the fish right?

AlyeskaGirl

Hello!

Weeeeeeelllll......first off you changed all of your filter media THEN added new fish. Right? Forgot what you said. lol Throwing out your filter media is throwing away good bacteria. Most of your nitrifyng bacteria lives on your filter media and walls. So that might of been part of the problem. Second, Plecos are huge waste producers as is and by adding him and 5 Tetras after changing filter media would most likely caused the ammonia spike. I wouldn't chance adding a new Angel fish into the tank with the one. He may get territorial and you may or may not see some pecking and chasing going on. Really it's a 50/50 chance....especially if the one you add is smaller. Size does make a difference. I have 3 Angles and the last one I added about 1 1/2 months ago.....didnt even fase the other two. Also, I wouldn't add the Angel or any other fish until the tank has settled, like 3 weeks.

Reciprocity

Ok, all good advice. Thank you, I do plan to wait a while to add fish and stress my system. And yes, lesson learned with throwing out ALL filter media. What I've learned from this thread is that I can expect ammonia on some level when adding fish, and that adding too many makes more ammonia and adding less makes less, but there will always be some, even in the case that I feed them more before new fish to produce more waste (ie ammonia), to beef my colony. And that Ph down is bad and Prime is better?

Reciprocity

oh, geese! DUH, I don't know why I didn't think of this before!!! Could you, in theory, just dump more bacteria in the tank before adding fish!? So now there would be a bigger colony just waiting for them, and when they get there.....no ammonia spike period!?

, let me know what all you think about THAT!

Butterfly

I really don't think so because.. the ammonia has to be there to feed the bacteria. So when you add fish they produce ammonia the bacteria feeds off of it and grows. I know that's kind of simplistic but that's basically what happens.
Carol

scatty

I don't think it works like that. Where would you get this theoretical bacteria from, if you don't mind me asking? From what I understand, the bacterial colony you have already needs to grow bigger, and the only way to make that happen is to feed it more. Those more knowledgeable than myself, please correct me if I'm wrong.....

Edit: beat me Carol

cowboytom

scatty, I believe you are dead on. To my knowledge there is no magic bullet when adding fish.I do lots of water changes when dealing with large numbers of fish such as receiving shipments for retail etc. Use lots of quarantine tanks when I get that urge to over buy. Patience and consideration for the fish is always key. Bigger tanks that are understocked is the way to go for us impulsive types.

Reciprocity

Oh poop. Well, I really thought I had a bright Idea! The bacterial colony I was referring to would be something you buy like bio-spira for freshwater? I thought I read once online that it's uses were for setting up new tanks and adding fish. But I suppose I never thought about what they would eat if I dose the tank before the new fish. Anyway, I think I like the Idea Cowboytom had, to be patient and not impulsive is key! Thanks everyone!

Jaysee

One thing you can do to prepare your tank for new fish is to adjust the feeding schedule. Instead of dumping in more bacteria, you can feed your fish more. The more you feed them, the more waste they produce, and higher waste output builds up the bacteria colonies. Once you add the new fish, don't feed the tank for a couple days, then start feeding less than normal for a few days then back to normal.

OctoberKnight

If you want great result very quickly, use a quick test kit check your chemical contents. If they are high depending on the levels replace 1/2 to 3/4 of the tank water. You need a biological foundation in your tank so never change all of the contents out. Let your aquarium run for a day before introducing new fish. then float the bags for temperature equalization. Finally, open bag in tank don't make to large of an opening introduce a small amount of water from tank into the bag. Let fish and water float, this is called acclimation. Wait 15 min. do the same thing one more time. Make sure the opening has access to air so fish can breath. Let fish out into tank to join the others. It helps to introduce at night while lights are off. Watch fish for few days may require some general medicating like stress coat. I quarantine that fish if he is sick in the same tank in a beta separator if need be. FYI- This will work perfectly if your tank size will capacitate the fish by gallon to fish ratio. Also, know the quality of your fish source provider before purchasing. If you go down to the local Wally World to pick up your fish you are buying a fish that is as good as the worst kept tank of them. What I mean is they are run on one single filtration system so if any of the tanks are infected they all are. That is a bad choice of purchasing. Now if they a reputable company they shouldn't mind giving you a little info as to how they stock there tanks as well as have what is called a guarantee quality assurance. Now it only covers the fish you are buying, so if you introduce a ick infested fishy into your tank or one with velvet or various other obvious diseases that should be easy for even the least experienced to discover while at the store. If you walk around the store and see any of the tanks with unattended or treated fish in a massively infected tank, you probably don't want to buy from them anyways. Advise don't ask 50 questions when doing your detective work if you waste the time of the individuals in the store and they don't see $$$ signs on a regular basis from you they may think your a tire kicker not serious about tanks anyways & do or say anything you want to hear even just try to make a short small sale to you just to get rid of you. Ask questions that a punctual quick and too the point for best results on purchases. Well, that's the lesson of the day guys. I grew up in a retail pet store and love pets and matching them up with loving owners. I always have had very loyal customers that came to see me time and time again. I hope I covered all the basics with you..... So enjoy your new babies and keep asking fishy questions.

Oh and the wood stick it in a 5 gallon bucket with pump circulating with dechlorinated water. Let it set for a day or two if it has moss established depending on the kind you may want to clean it with scrub brush if it has a bad moss such as hairy moss or slimy moss from lake or river. If it is newer piece of wood being turned into drift wood you will have to run this process a lot longer like months like 3 to 6 months.... Back to original thought sorry, after two days of letting water circulate if it is not seeping discharge of color in the water or dirtying the water you can usually after nitrate & ph test go ahead and transport into tank. If it is seeping bad 6 months here you come. (ever two days replace water until all seepage stops, do tests then transport when good) On older wood this every 2 day change should only take approximately 1 week. Either way you get the idea. GOOD LUCK

One more solution Bio WATER from drain off of anothers well established tanks. IT WORK I DON"T CARE WHAT PEOPLE TELL YOU <<<<<<< WE SELL IT AND I HEAR BACK FROM VERY SATISFIED CUSTOMERS ON REGULAR BASIS>>>>>>>>> THAT IS ALL I GOT HUN AND YOU ADD IT JUST LIKE YOU WOULD WHEN YOU DO A WATER CHANGE BUT CHANG YOUR FILTERS BEFORE HAND. FILTERS ARE OVER RATED MOST OF THE TIME I MEAN HOW MUCH THEY DO FOR YOUR TANK AS FAR AS THE CARBON. THE CARBON ONLY TRULY WORKS FOR A DAY OR TWO TILL THEY ARE EITHER LOADED OR COMPLETELY DONE DOING THE EXTRACT OF REGULATORS. JUST KEEP SAME FILTER PAD FOR A MONTH OR TWO KEEP CLEANING IT AS NEEDED THEN REPLACE. TRUE REGULATION COMES BY WATER CHANGES AND SIPHONING BACTERIAL WASTES WHEN CLEANING GRAVEL BASE. TY TY TY I'LL TAKE A BOW LOL
Hello, I've merged your posts since they were back to back with no response between.
Thanks!
Ken

Butterfly

Welcome to FishLore OctoberKnight. Step into the welcome forum and let us welcome you properly
OctoberKnight since this is an older post I'm sure the problem has been solved. The original poster hasn't asked anymore questions either.
Carol