dancerhas

Right now the only LFS that I know of in one of our nearby towns is closing its doors for good. The proprietor is retiring after running the place for 30 years. Now this place has good selection, but they don't take good care of their fish at all, and even sell PAINTED FISH! Needless to say, I don't shop there and I'm not particularly sad to see the place go. However it occured to me that with that store gone, there will be no locally owned fish/pet store left in that whole city. (that I know of) This potentially leaves an opening for a new fish/pet store, one that takes great care of their fish, breeds some of them in-house, promotes proper care, and will even give you a piece of cycled media to start your tank off with. I've always wanted to start my own business, whether it be a recording studio, or a fish store. And with the way that environmentally friendly things are taking off it seems there would be a market for more of a "specialty" store in the fish/pet area. The downside is that I really don't know jack about the nuts and bolts of business, I'm thinking about taking a course, but that all takes time, and the gap could be filled before I ever got anywhere close. I just have an idea, I can see the advertising, the fish, the educational pamphlets and workshops, and it all makes sense...in theory.

What do you all think? Is is possible for a hobbyist to to start a business and energize the local market with a positive influence while still turning a profit? Would you shop at a store like this even if the prices were higher than the chain?

EDIT: This post doesn't count as a commercial interest does it? Seeing as said place doesn't actually exist? If this causes a problem, I'm sorry!

platy ben

I think this would be an awesome idea!
I think tis possible for thoe hobbyist to start a business for sure
And I also shop for quality, I spend a lot on my fish but I know they are healthy at my LFS

Do you breed any fish at home currently?

Meenu

My personal opinion is that this is a business, and without proper business knowledge and skills, you could end up with a disaster. You need the knowledge to enter into contracts with suppliers, deal with unhappy customers who threaten to sue you, deal with landlords, contractors, etc.

I think it is more important to be a business owner with compassion for fish than a person with compassion for fish who owns a business.

There will always be a market for the type of business you describe - don't rush into things without knowing exactly what you are doing.

dancerhas

We've had the accidental livebearer fry (who hasn't?) and I've wanted to breed bettas for a while, but I've always been presented with the problem of what to do with the fry once they're grown. Haphazard breeding is irresponsible, but if I owned a store, i could sell the fish that I bred, and eliminate the middleman therefore reducing overhead and increasing profit.

Think about this hypothetical scenario:

Breeder breeds betta at a cost of $3 per fish, and in turn sells it to Store for $4 turning a $1 profit. The store then sells it to the Consumer for $5 also turning a $1 profit.

OR

Store breeds betta at a cost of $3 per fish and sells directly to consumer for $4.50 at a profit of $1.50 per fish while still undercutting the competition.

platy ben

Well maybe you could start off online?
MM, as we all know, is having great success with her betta breeding and she works admirably hard to care for all of them

You start off online or sell from your house by advertising in post offices and such?

I agree with Meenu, a business is hard to set up! I do business studies at school and I recently had to make a business plan for a shop of my choice as my coursework! I did an athletics equipment store for my shop

Elodea

I agree with Meenu, your business could become catastrophic if you don't know things about a business, but if you do, or if you're willing to learn about this, GO FOR IT!!! It'll be great to have a fish store (I live in CA but I mean great for the local people) whose people actually know what they're doing!

Lucy

Hey, long time, no see.
I think you're under estimating the cost of breeding bettas properly, but that's besides the point.

Are you thinking of possibly taking over the store that's closing?
If so, how about an apprenticeship and learn how his business is run while taking business courses?
This could give you the connections he has while you apply your knowledge of fish.

dancerhas

So true, business is not easy. I work for a small business and having seen a lot of the inner workings first hand, I must say that it's not for the faint of heart. I think though, that passion is an incredibly important asset. If you are passionate about what you do you will be more willing to learn those new things, work over those contracts one more time, and burn the midnight oil seven nights a week.

Business owners tend to be a particular breed of people (IMO) the sad part is that most of the time the only thing they're passionate about is the dollar. My experience working directly for the owner of a small business has only reinforced that opinion. Not that I can fault my boss for most of his decisions, his loyalty is to the business, nobody else, and he has to do some unpleasant things to make it work. Sometimes I wonder if you HAVE to be a little greedy to be able to make the hard decisions that keep a business afloat. Somebody has to let that extra employee go, somebody has to cancel the fish adoption program if it puts the company in the red, fill in the blank and somebody still has to make that call.

At the end of they day it all comes down to balance. How much profit has to be made to keep the business afloat while keeping the compromises to the absolute minimum in the best interest of the consumer and the fish. If that is acheived then this business would be a success. Maybe the store couldn't adopt fish that people didn't want because it costs too much, but it can still educate and sell properly so there are fewer unwanted fish out there.

Meenu

If you go forward with this, breeding some of your own fish sounds like a good idea.

When fish are priced, though, aren't they usually coming from farms where they were raised, or directly from the river? I would think the cost per fish that way is way less than what it would cost a breeder.

So what if your scenario is actually more like this:
-Pet store buys fish from dealer (wild or farmed fish) for $2. Sell it to store for 3, store sells it for 4.
-Breeder breeds fish for $5, sells directly to consumer for 6 plus $10 shipping on aquabid, etc.
-You breed for $5, sell for 6.

I think your target market for high-end bred fish is different than most of the people who will walk into your store: Bob and Susie setting up a tank for Junior. (By the way, I am specifically thinking of bettas).

I'm sorry I am sounding so negative. Someone close to me has always loved business, has the passion for owning a business and his product, but never had the knowledge to properly run a business. His life's been a big disaster - he's constantly broke and borrowing money because someone took advantage of him, etc. I just want to make sure that you don't end up regretting your choice, and that you go into this with eyes wide open.

Meenu

Some existing business background is a great start. I would encourage you, if you want to do this, to go ahead and enroll in some classes, and keep going even as you start your business.

(By the way, online is great, but it defies the purpose of what you are trying to do - give your local community a place they can go for quality products and a whole bunch of knowledge.)

dancerhas

Just a number to illustrate a concept, be it $5 or $500.

I am unsure honestly. I've considered trying to buy the store, or opening a completely new one. It's a family owned business and I could see someone being reluctant to sell a business with their name on it. Apprenticing and then buying would definitely be the easiest/quickest route versus starting from scratch. Like others have said though, if you start from scratch you can start small.

I've dreamed about opening "the perfect" fish store in the past, but implementing my ideas is the hard part, and I had kind of put the idea to rest. But the other day when I saw the store closing signs go up it brought the idea back with a possible opportunity alongside.

dancerhas

Yes and yes, you keep saying exactly what the cautious side of my brain has been thinking, lol.

High end is definitely a market that is not covered in my local area. Bob and susie already went to walmart or petsmart and got Junior his tank, and are now selling it on craigslist for $10. That market is practically dry. A LFS would have to cater to serious hobbyists, the upper class, environmental activists, and/or those diehard quality seekers.

Generally labor is one of the highest costs of any business, with payroll taxes and workers comp, it's expensive to have people do your work for you. The only way I could theoretically compete with chain prices would be breeding myself, where the only cost is food, electricity, chemicals, etc... Now I haven't run the numbers, nor do I know what profit margin that the chain has on it's bettas. A lot of this is just theory.

Your scenario makes a lot of sense, I personally buy very few things online unless they have free shipping, (why pay $16 for a $6 betta?) so if I could go buy a betta for $8 that's actually WORTH $8 locally, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I think there are others out there that would too.

Meenu

Would you be funding this yourself, or seeking out a business loan. That's one way to see if this is a decent idea - if you do to the bank with a business plan for a loan, and they turn you down, then maybe not a great idea?

I love the concept of what you want to do. You should just approach the current owner, take him to lunch, and ask him what he thinks (without, of course, saying his store was bad). He'll know for sure if there is any competition in the area (there could be stores that you aren't aware of). He may also have some tips about marketing, which dealers are reputable and which aren't, etc. And since you won't be competing with him, maybe he'll actually be willing to share information with you.

platy ben

If you don't know of any other fish stores in the area I think you would be okay starting small

dancerhas

A very logical good place to start. I have always had legal questions about doing that though. Such as: how does any profit appear on my taxes? Am I self employed even though I have another job? Could my start up costs be tax deductible? Do I have to be incorporated?

It seems the line between "Joe is out cutting lawns for $10" and "Joe's - The exquisite lawn care pro's" is kinda blurry.

Meenu

By the way, dancerhas, I know I'm being negative. If you want more upbeat responses, I am happy to bow out of the conversation.

Meenu

Both Joes should be reporting their income to the IRS. Depending on how mych they make in a year, they may not have to pay taxes, but both have reportable income.

platy ben

I'm looking into becoming a personal trainer when I get older and I have worked out that you can set up a business account, you then pay a large percentage of your income into this account so it can be taxed

dancerhas

Again excellent advice. Usually a bank won't even look at you unless you have all your ducks in a row beforehand. You need good a business plan, vision statement etc... to really have a good chance of getting a business loan. (from what I've read anyway) The bank would probably know if it's worth their money or not. That said, a denial isn't necessarily a guarantee that the business would fail, being a young person with fledgling credit I know that credit is near impossible to get these days regardless of a lot of positive elements. And if Equifax() makes a mistake on your credit report? forget about it.

Of course the odds seem better if you're buying an established business and have learned from the current owner. A business with a clientel is more valuable than a new business and a bank knows that this makes it a better "investment" on their part. A guy (my age) I know worked at a local computer store for a while and then ended up partnering with a coworker and buying it. A pretty incredible feat in my opinion.

No worries about negativity, I'm not here looking for glowing support and unfounded praise. A rose has to have thorns to be a rose, that's how life works.

dancerhas

I just realized that this store closing gives me the opportunity to buy fixtures and tanks for likely a very good price. The store is selling "all fixtures" and I assume that includes their equipment and storage tanks. Maybe start a breeding setup...

Meenu

Do you have a room in your house to store the stuff? It would be awesome if you got a really great deal on it.

dancerhas

We have a spare bedroom that's currently being used for storage, I could probably clear out most of it and make some more room. We live in an upstairs apartment, not particularly spacious but there's probably room for a few 10g fry tanks. I've also considered trying to rent a room from Heidi's parents, they have a house up in the mountains with well water.

I wouldn't want to go totally crazy from the start. Just a few tanks dedicated for breeding or raising fry. 10g's can be divided later on to accommodate a couple adults.

Meenu

You breed bettas? MM and Critter Fritter do too... very cool hobby, in my opinion.

dancerhas

have wanted to for a long time. I've just always been worried about having a surplus of adults and nobody to buy them. They're not like Platys which can all be housed in one big tank as adults. That's why if I could get a few smaller tanks and divide them I could house home-bred adult bettas while I try to find buyers. Wouldn't be a bad place to start. Maybe convicts or some type of african cichlid too in the future. Maybe even Discus! As far as I know you can't even buy discus anywhere in the area.

platy ben

On aquarist-classifieds.co.uk, a kind of british aquabid I guess, I find the most successful sellers to be american cichlids. If you had the space, I think electric blue jack dempseys would be a starting point. However, I would attempt to carry out a questionnaire through your LFS to see what size tanks people have, this will then give you a good idea of what to breed, for example, if the majority had 20G tanks, jack dempseys wouldn't be a good idea.

crazedACD

As for petsomethings vs walmart vs LFS, it might be possible for you to be competitive with them as far as prices and variety go. I work/am the sole caretaker for the section of the store that sells fish...we aren't a chain, so I guess you can consider it like a LFS. I know for a fact that 99% of the fish I buy from the wholesalers are mostly imported, some bought from breeders...I know for a fact my Bettas are imported from another country (I think India). They don't breed anything and are able to sell to me for very low prices. We are able to double their prices, plus 20%, and we still come in lower in a lot of fish than Petsmart/Petco and depending on the fish, Walmart. I don't know how many varieties of fish you plan on stocking, but you can't really expect to breed all types of fish..you will probably have to order from a dealer regularly. I do wish I had the space to grow out my own livebearers, cichlids etc but then again when you only pay say a penny or three per feeder guppy, maybe $1.00 for a betta, and $2.50 for a cichlid to make more than double...is it worth breeding?

A lot depends on the quality of stock you are able to maintain too...if your supplier is , you're going to be replacing fish faster than you can sell them, and you have to take in consideration the type of systems you plan on using. If you plan on going with a commercial system, like Marineland makes..it's easier, but there is a lot more room for the whole system to crash, infectious diseases, etc-basically less employee cost but higher mortality rate. Unfortunately I have them at my work, I would love to trade them in for individual tanks.

I know of two suppliers that would likely deliver to your area, if you are ever interested...one is total , really not worth the headache. Their fish are generally nice looking...good size, good color, but the drivers throw the fish around, have no clue what they are doing, they are sneaky (will put fish in your order that you didn't order...among other things). And then the sale fish usually have something wrong with them, the mortality rate is pretty high...yeah it's a giant headache. Then again they usually have EVERYTHING, for great prices, even pretty rare fish. The other place I haven't ordered from them, although they look OK, I will probably try them out in the next few weeks.

If you have any questions feel free to PM me, haha I've practically written an essay here.

Meenu

Jessica, I was wondering what your thoughts would be. I remembered that you worked in this field.

Slug

You get what you pay for, so assuming the quality is higher then chain stores, then yes I would buy fish at a higher price.

Its HARD to compete with online retailers for dry goods, real hard. Even some online fish dealers. I know a lot of guys that have started specializing in one type of fish as a hobbyist, then moving to importing and selling online, then opening up a store front selling locally and online. It can be done, but it can be very costly and very tiring. I know my LFS makes a lot of their profit from taking care of aquariums around town, thats where the bulk of their income comes from.

It looks like you and I share a lot of the same dreams. I would love to own my own fish store. And breed a lot in house. Makes me kinda wish I knew more about business.

ldbrown3138

Running a Pet / Fish Store is a lot of work. I worked for a LFS while in college and I saw the work that goes into it and I saw what little profit comes out. You can make a living but I didn't see anyone getting rich. The store I worked for eventually sold to one of the employees. He had a marine biology degree and had taken many business classes. He turned the business into a fish only store, very upscale and had an online side as well. While other stores were closing due to competition from Petsmart, etc, he expanded. Unfortunately, he lost all his livestock to a power failure while on vacation.

As for breeding fish cheaper than buying them from the wholesaler, it is possible with the high end fish but you'll never produce the bread and butter fishes cheaper than the farms in Florida and SE Asia. They breed fish by the 1000's in outdoor ponds and vats. If you're ever in South Florida, you should visit some of the farms. Very interesting places.

dancerhas

Wow! So much great information and advice! You guys are being very helpful.

In my minds eye, breeding fish would have to be a small side project of the shop, where high-end types of fish that you can't get at the chain were bred and sold for max profit. I totally get what you're saying about the mass production of bread and butter fishes, it's hard to disagree with those kind of prices/margins.

The store that's closing currently has what appears to be a very large (custom/home made?) commercial system. I am wondering if it's going to stay or be torn down when the store closes because it appears to be completely built into the building. I've considered both options when thinking about storing/displaying fish. I've considered building a connected system (I'm a big DIYer) in which water could be changed in all tanks at once. But then one has to worry about cross contamination. whereas individual tanks require individual water changes, but reduce cross contamination and the water can be tailored to the fishes needs. Labor labor labor, all comes back to labor compromise. Our favorite local fish store (in the other town) has (I think) the individual tanks and their fish are always healthier than the chain.

keep the good advice coming!