Tavel

This is a little rant, but it's just such a pervasive complaint I have about everything.

Companies are more than happy to tell you what their product does, but will never tell you HOW it does what they say! They can make claims until their faces turn blue, but until i know the premise behind the claim I won't buy it.

Example 1: Oxyclean. Oh yeah, Billy Mays was more than happy to tout the "cleaning power of oxygen." But as far as I was concerned, air is 20% oxygen and so should make an excellent detergent...at least by that definition. How am I supposed to believe their claims when they won't tell me the basic principle behind their product's mode of operation?

Later, I found out Oxyclean is Sodium Carbonate and Peroxide joined together. When added to water they disassociate. The Sodium Carbonate bonds with ions (dissolved metals) in the water before they bond with detergent (you want detergent bonding with dirt on your clothes, not with metals in the water).

And the Peroxide breaks off to form Hydrogen Peroxide, which everyone knows is a great bleaching agent.

I bought some the day I learned this.

WHY couldn't they just say this? Maybe they think we're too dumb to understand and so they just shout at us until we do what they say?


Example 2: 3M Filtrete furnace filters. They say the electrostatic fibers attract suspended particles. That's fine, that's the exact premise behind air ionizers...the good ones with filters and fans behind the anodes, not the ones that claim to clean the air "with no fans or expensive filters!"


(anyway...)

But I couldn't figure out how the electrostatic fibers STAYED charged for more than a few minutes, let alone MONTHS. The marketing hype never says anything about this. Again, how am I supposed to believe their claims when they won't tell me the basic principle behind their product's mode of operation?

I finally learned, after WEEKS of research, that the fibers are charged by their shape and material. As the air passes over the rectangular profile of the fibers it strips the glass of electrons, giving it a positive charge. The very same thing happens at the tip of a vacuum cleaner hose! (never clean a computer with a vacuum, duh!)

Now it all makes sense.

Why couldn't they just say it?

sirdarksol

It's not marketing, it's the rest of society.
Marketing only does what they know will hook the consumer, with the limitations they are given by the higher-ups in the company.

Most people don't want to know why something works. Some will even get bored with such an explanation (which, if it's a radio or TV spot, will also cost the company extra money) and get turned off to the product. They want to be told that it does work, and they want to be told in as flashy of a way as possible. Marketing merely responds to this wish, giving precisely what is asked for.

In some cases, higher-ups in the company may also wish to minimize knowledge of the whys of something in order to avoid the consumer finding a cheaper way that doesn't utilize the product (Tide with Bleach Alternative and washing soda basically makes OxyClean, so if you use Tide, or another detergent with an alternative to bleach, it would be cheaper to just buy washing soda) or to delay copycat products.

So yep, it gives those of us who actually want to know the whys of stuff a huge headache, but it's what turns the most product, and that's precisely what marketing is there for.

Lucy

This would be me. lol

sirdarksol

See what I mean?

eiginh

Off topic.

Idk why but this guy annoys me, he's from the sham wow and the chop slap infomercials.

http://halfwaytoconcord.com/wp-conte...04/shamwow.jpg

Tavel

I'll agree with you there. I honestly can't figure out why someone wouldn't want to know why Random Company A (RCA, lol) says their product works...how can you go on no more than a "trust me dude, it totally works." hahaha.

I also see why they don't want to explain the ins and outs on the tv spot. Clearly not enough time, and it's very expensive.

Which leads me to the shady companies marketing gimmicks or re-branded products, like oxyclean (I still like it...but that's not the point lol). If they don't WANT to tell me how it works, then I feel they're being dishonest with me. And if they're dishonest, how can I trust their claims? It's a bit of a catch 22 IMO.


But I don't see why companies with legitimately innovative products (like 3M) wouldn't make the information available on their website for the people who want to know how it works. I wonder how many people are out there saying "It sounds like a good idea, but I'm not going to buy it because it doesn't make sense."

he looks like the kind of sleaze ball you wouldn't want around your kids.

"Hey kids, wanna see a trick?!" as you start fingering 911 on the phone, lol.

sirdarksol

Taking the Filtrete as an example, if 3M put the information of "why" on their website the day they released Filtrete, there would have been people immediately trying to come up with ways to squeak by the patent, or worse, trying to improve upon the design, which would both bypass the patent and put 3M one under. As it is, opposing companies first have to buy a bunch of the product (giving sales to 3M), then have their own researchers examine the product to find out why it works. Or they've got to pay pencil pushers to go through all of 3Ms filtration patents to try to find the ones that apply to Filtrete (not an easy prospect). Only then can they start working on copying/one-upping 3M, which has, in the mean time, solidified its place as the best producer of furnace filters, and been working on improving on their own product.
ShamWow doesn't want you to know that its product is simply a thick felt, and if you find the right mix of fibers, you could buy it for $3 a yard at a fabric store.

This is why we have the truth in advertising stuff in legislation. Companies aren't going to give up their trade secrets, but buyers should be able to be certain that when a company makes a concrete claim (works 50% better than the leading brand, has 10mg of sodium, blocks 75% of UV rays, and even things like weight and volume of a product), they're telling the truth. Where it gets fuzzy is "it works" is an amazingly subjective claim. Let's say OxyClean only improved washer function by 1%. It would still work, and could be claimed as such.

Tavel

I strongly disagree here.

1. The simple ad-description doesn't yeild adequate information to actually start a production run. You can't tool a factory because you know the "principal" behind hybrid cars. You NEED to reverse engineer, so you need a product in hand.

2. Reverse engineering is always done by competitors, for every product. ALWAYS. If you make something, your competitors will buy one and figure out how it works, and incorporate your innovations into their own designs.

Revealing the "principal of operation" to the public in an advertisement won't have any effect on the competitor's engineers who are A. experts in the field and know how it works WITHOUT the advertisement and B. already have your product in hand.

You don't need to reveal trade secrets to let the public know your engine is more efficient because the computer maps ignition timing for optimal burn. Your competitors ALREADY KNOW THAT, they just can't figure out the technical details...and they won't figure it out from that.


Of course...smooth talking marketing directors arent known for their intelligence. THEY probably think revealing the mode of operation will somehow inspire the compitor's engineers to bypass the year or so of research and design, manufacturing design (you have to design the method of manufacture too, not just the product), tooling lead time, prototyping, and quality assurance testing, just because they learned a little snippet about the product.

btw: Shamwow is actually not a unique product, it's just uniquely marketed. You can find similar materials all over the place.

It's similar to "Mighty Putty," which is actually just plumber's putty. And yes, plumber's putty has "green to white technology" too...or whatever Billy Mays called it.

sirdarksol

Competitors don't automatically know the basic properties of a given product. One way or another, they've got to pay for them. This pay may be in time researching the product, it may be in time going through patents and comparing them to the product, it may be in corporate espionage, it may be in combing through various US regulatory commission notices, but it costs, and if a competitor didn't have to pay that cost, if 3M was forthcoming with the fact that Filtrete used rectangular strands in the fiber, or that Post-Its were a screw-up of the Scotch Tape line, they would have a starting point that would avoid much of that cost.
Also, I never said that it would be enough to start production. There's a huge difference between bypassing the first step of research ("where to start" is often the most difficult step) and production.

Your number two argument is correct, but it is based on the world being the way it is. If companies gave more information about their products, this would become less and less true. In simple cases (OxyClean, for example) it wouldn't be necessary at all. In more complex cases, it would at least give the engineers a place to start.

Yes, I know that Shamwow isn't unique. I said that it was just a particular kind of felt. And that's another of my points. If the average consumer was told in the commercials "Shamwow is a 80/20 cotton/polyester felt (making up numbers here) of 1/8" or 1/4" thickness that has these amazing properties" a lot fewer people would buy it. They'd head over to their JoAnne Etc store, instead, and buy it for a lot cheaper.

Tavel

I'm still going to have to disagree.

Those engineers ARE the experts, they can see it and go "of course!" A brief description for the laymen isn't going to expedite their discovery.

The hardest part isn't coming up with a design or an idea...it's coming up with a way to manufacture that design. Fiberglass is easy...but rectangular fiberglass? Now that's a challenge. THAT'S where the trade secrets lie, everyone can see your product...but they can't see how you MAKE your product ;-)


About 80% of product design is manufacturing design, food for thought.


But of course, as long as the decision makers see things your way (which I'm absolutely sure they do), nothing will change.

There are actually a few companies that divulge exactly why their product is better, but they're usually in niche markets that are flooded with "snake oil." The air purifier industry is a great example of this. There are literally hundreds of cheap and ineffectual air purifiers on the market, so a legitimate player like Blueair has to tell the wary consumers exactly how their product works or they won't buy in.

I dunno, I guess I'll chuck this into the bin of "wouldn't it be nice..." things.