AlyeskaGirl

Hello, just got some thoughts swimming around in my head. It's about giving advice on here, some ignore it, some don't. So what do we do with the ones that don't listen? It gets hard to read some members aquaruim info etc. and seeing that their stocking is inappropriate for that size tank. All we can do is say something and then they eather listen or they don't.

There are alot of knowledgeable members on this wonderful forum and sometimes I feel that newbies don't think we know what we are talking about. Some fish are just so cool but get huge. Like the bala shark 14", Clown Loach 12", Common Pleco 18" and Oscar 14" for instance. These fish get to large for the average aquarium. What size is the average aquarium? 10-20 gallons?

Who here thinks a 10 gallon is inappropriate for a Pearl Gourmai and a 20 gallon slightly inappropriate? I was told that somewhere else.

Can someone please explain what exactly happens to a fish that is kept in a too small of a tank? What happens in a tank that is too crowded? I know what happens but just curious what others think and share it with us.

I'm just rambling on, hope it makes some sense, lol! I think I'm just venting in a way.

ABCDemily

I think I know what thread sparked this off lol.

This is what happens to a fish: The outside of the fish stops growing.

The inside organs keep growing as if the fish is growing normally.

The internal organs eventually press up against the fishes skeleton and outer body.

This causes haemorraging inside, and spinal deformities are very common.

If there are too many fish:

ammonia posioning

Stunting (even if it's big enough)

Hard to maintain

Very prone to disease

Stress

And ultimatly. Lots of preventable fish death.

So macabre lol.

aquarist48

Stunted growth IMO: You know some people say, oh the fish will be ok in there it just won't grow as large since it doesn't have room to grow. Well, it doesn't grow because it usually dies before it has a chance to live out it's life span, and to reach it's full growth in a spacious tank. Stunting is fatal.

Over crowding: can lead to ammonia poisoning, sick fish, stressed fish, ICH. Complete loss of fish and the tank ends up in the trash. (Or on Craigs list, which is good for us that have MTS and get tanks at a cheaper price).
Ken

matt6765

Hahaha thats a good way to think of it

mathas

Can anyone provide any proof that the organs continue to grow while the body does not? I've heard it repeated for years, but I've never seen any actual evidence beyond hearsay.

I'm not trying to pick on anyone who does believe this, nor am I trying to justify keeping fish in sub-par conditions, but I'm really quite curious about the biomechanics behind this if it is indeed true.

It seems to me that any factor with an endocrinological impact would have an overall impact, not just on exterior growth. Poor conditions (particularly elevated nitrites/nitrates, from what I've read) can certainly have an impact on pituitary/thyroid function, but I'm interested in how growth hormone would continue to be produced for only for internal organs and nothing else.

harpua2002

I've seen pics/articles about spine deformity in oscars and plecos that were forced to live in a tank that was too small. The pics spoke for themselves... it was a wonder the fish had survived as long as they had. I believe the pleco I saw, sadly, had to be humanely euthanized. The fish was literally bent at about a 45 degree angle.

Regarding the stunting issue, that I'm not sure about. But I do agree with Ken that many overcrowded fish don't even live long enough to become stunted. Stress kills fish, and keeping fish in inappropriate setups undoubtedly causes stress. Healthy, disease-free tanks aren't simply a result of luck.

Beth1965

Christine: One can only offer advice.
Some people already have an answer in their head (the answer they want to hear) before they even hear the advice. Sometimes you can't change that and sometimes you can. What can you do?
Beth

Red1313

I'm not sure on the exact details but in regards to the question for actual evidence this thread might help. The post I'm referring to is #16 and the picture is a post or two above it.

gmen4life

i love the bala discussion that re ocurrs constintly man i can spell but o well

mathas

I guess when I asked if anyone had seen proof, I was hoping for a scientific paper or study or article or something more than anecdotal, one-off pictures of single fish and a declaration that it must be disproportionate organ enlargement due to confined quarters. For all we know, the fish in that thread could have some type of genetic disorder, parasite, or infection that caused the visible problems. A sample size of one (especially with no necropsy) just isn't enough to definitively say that the fish in question had disproportionately-enlarged organs because it was in too small of a tank.

I'm not saying the phenomenon isn't possible, I'm just wondering why so many people are sure that's what happens yet no evidence has ever been offered that I've seen. If you do a Google search for "stunted fish organs", you'll find a ton of people making the claim, some people asking for proof, and no proof anywhere.

If organ growth were independent of hormone-driven skeletal/muscular growth, why do the organs not continue to grow after a non-stunted fish reaches adult size? If organ growth and skeletal/muscular growth are both hormone-driven, why would the factors that lead to stunted exterior growth not also inhibit organ growth?

I have no idea one way or the other what happens, I'm just curious about the why and how behind whatever actually does happen.

wooza

You raise an interestnig discussion Mathas. I too am now intrigued as to the science behind it all. Is it a myth created by good intentioned people attempting to deter people from keeping fish in small tanks? Or is it fact that small living quarters cause stunted exterior growth. Now you have got me thinking.

Lucy

I agree, he raises a very valid point.
Although I haven't found any scientific papers supporting this issue all you really have to do is look around you.
Have you ever had a child whose shoes are too small for their feet? Their toes will curl and hurt.
Have you had a plant whose roots are too big for the pot it's in? It will stop growing or die.
There was a seedling under my deck. When the seedling grew big enough and hit the bottom of the deck, the branch curved and grew in another direction leading to a deformed little tree.

Not very scientific, but you get the idea.

jgon_

Hmm, this got me thinking. Since I have access to all the major fish biology journals I did a search. Couldn't find a thing. Maybe I'll stop repeating this mantra untill I can find some real evidence. Ancedotes don't equal science.

Nate McFin

Regardless of whether or not it causes stunted growth it comes down to a space issue for me. I think about it the same way when I see a Blue and Gold Macaw in a tiny cage.
Heck I bought a 55 gallon so my Cardinals would have more room to move!

jgon_

I don't think anyone is disagreeing that is a space issue. Its just interesting to look for the actual physiological mechanisms which cause detrimental effects in confined spaces- and whether our often repeated explainations hold up to the evidence.

wooza

Hmmm I'm not sure that these examples can be directly compared to a fish in a tank. In all of your examples, the thing that is growing is coming up against a solid object that leaves the thing with no option but to either stop growing or find an alternative route. With fish in a small tank however they are not actually being constrained by the walls of the tank, they just have less space to move around. I am not sure where I stand on this one, but what I do know is that fish and tank guidelines are obviously there for a reason. A fish has the right to be in a tank that is suitable for its potential growth. It is unfair to keep it in anything less.

Red1313

Hmmm... going to go and scan my university library and see what I can find...

EDIT: I've found a number of studies (however would need to go to the university to access hard copies to read. Only abastracts are avalible online) Of the studies I've found they're mostly regarding growth-rates at different stocking desities, and tend towards the short term. I haven't found any long term studies as yet.

sirdarksol

As far as the internal organ thing:
No, there is no support for the continued organ growth theory, at least not that I've seen.
I have read two articles in Ebsco-Host (online article database) that have shown that extended periods of stunted growth are harmful to fish in that they become unable to breed. Further, in other animals, it is almost always true that something that is harmful to the ability to procreate has lesser negative impacts on the general health of the organism. Therefore, it's a very sound theory that stunting a fish's growth is going to have a negative impact on its overall health and its lifespan.

One thing we've got to remember when we're looking for support of this theory, however, is that science doesn't really care about aquarium fish. There is little money in researching ailments that are specific to aquarium fish, so we have to look at research aimed at wild fish and fish that are farmed for food. Since stunting growth for extended periods of time is counterproductive in the fishery industry (it wouldn't do for the breeding stock to become infertile), they aren't really concerned with what would happen if a fish remained stunted its entire life. And since nature is unlikely to allow a fish to survive in a too-small pool (there's predators, potential of the water drying up, etc...), it's not really an important study in wild fish, either.

Lucy

Fair enough. A while after writing that I realized the flaw in my examples.

AlyeskaGirl

I see you all are having a good chat about stunted growth. That's great!

I've been doing some googling tonight. I've come across that "diet and environmental conditions " plays a part in stunted growth. It doesn't have to do with the size of the aquarium....but then I found some info on goldfish. It got my head spinning, lol!

http://www.tropicalfishcentre.co.uk/goldfish1.htm

Beleive me I feel that keeping fish in a tank that doesn't meet their space needs isn't fare at all. It's like getting a large dog and keeping it in a small apartment.

The link below I thought was an interesting read, so I thought I'd just post it here.

http://www.algone.com/aquarium_fish.php

scatty

both really interesting reads, thanks for sharing.