clinton1621

Whats up with the rudeness on here? I've noticed a lot of it and so have a few other new members. It seems like a few of the members who have been around for a long time have this chip on their shoulder and need to prove that they know it all and that all the new people with questions must be morons. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isnt asking questions and learning about fish and fishkeeping what this website is all about? I mean the name of this website is Fishlore.com Tropical Aquarium Information... not Heydontaskstupidquestionsandbecrueltoanimals.com

I personally dont think it would be all that difficult to refrain from sounding like you are belittling someone when you give them advice or answering a question.

For example, this is the rude way....

OMG you have a betta in a 1g bowl, you are killing your fish and that is just cruel and horrible, dont you know anything about the nitrogen cycle or how to take care of a betta?

Now for the nice and also more adult way....

Hi there, I see that you are having a lot of problems with your betta. Did you know that keeping them in a bowl is hard on them and can cause them to get stressed and sick more often? You should look up some threads on here about betta care and what size tanks and water parameters they should have to be healthy. Also, I see you dont understand the nitrogen cycle... this link will help you out and save you a lot of headaches, money, and sick fish.... I hope this information helps you and your fish, and also feel free to ask any other questions you may have =)

(insert nitrogen cycle thread here)


Now, how much harder would that really be to do? It keeps the same issues in there, and it doesnt make the person who started the thread feel like they are some horrible moron who shouldnt even have fish.

Edit: And on the being nice note, I think we all know the saying... If you cant say something nice, dont say anything at all.

I know I will get tons of hate posts for this, but I feel it needed to be said

Best Regards, Clinton

peacemaker92

I agree with you. I sometimes get replies from post or see other members replying questions with rude answers. Mostly from members who have more experience.

Lucy

Thanks for the reminder, Clinton.

Steve420

Being rather new to Fishlore, here is my personal opinion (remember this is just my )

I think that it is coming from both sides, both the people posting the questions and the people responding.

I think that people are posting questions and essentially, just not getting the answers that they want to hear. So they keep bumping their thread, asking for more opinions (even when they get the same responses) and I think that frustrates the more experienced members.

I also think that responses to posts are getting "short" and possibly rude, due to the asking of the same questions over and over instead of just searching the forum. Maybe people are just tired of giving the same old "Nitrogen Cycle" speech etc..

I think we all also need to remember that ultimately we are all here for the same reasons.

Shawnie

I agree 100%

Allie

I wouldn't say it was rudeness...more like people getting annoyed or misunderstanding what people are saying.
What I find annoying is people who ask for advice, don't listen> Then post again asking the same question, saying they have problems. I would expect people to get annoyed with me if I kept doing the same thing.
Some questions get asked too many times. Can a Betta have tank mates? How many times do we need to answer that? The search up at the top can find you a lot more info than asking repetitive questions.
Every question you can think of in fish keeping has been asking 100 times over and has to be on the site somewhere.
I am the type of person who researches first then asks questions if I can't find the answer. Google: what tank mates can a betta have? 100 answers will pop up. Any question you have someone in google world has had it asked and answered.
Maybe each section should have Frequent Q&As. Just an idea.

Fishies-for-me

I agree with Allie about researching things first and then posting a ? if you can't find it. On the other hand if I see a ? that is being asked just to get a response from people...( no I don't like that answer that has been given to me by 27 experienced fish keepers cuz it isn't the one I am looking for can anyone give me a better one) I just roll my eyes and don't answer.

Allie

The trolls who ask questions to set people off is very wrong. Those people have issues in general.
I just had a guy pick a huge fight with me on a local forum...b/c I dared to agree with someone that Monster fish, like a red tail catfish should be kept in the amazon. That the average fish keepers don't have big enough tanks to keep them for life. It was cruel to be so selfish to take in a fish you can't treat properly just b/c you think they are cool.
He pmed me a few times...weirdos out there.

Tom

One of the things I remember learning from my grade 7 teacher is; 'How did Einstein become so smart? Because he asked questions.' That is exactly what this site is about, but there is expert advise all over this forum, you just need to look for it. Most people are just too lazy to look for it and figure it is faster to start up a new thread to get their info. I appreciate how each case may seem different initially, but if you really think about it, they are pretty similar.
Tom

Lucy

dnftt

jen82

I understand there are some silly people out there asking questions over and over again because they dont like the answers their being given. But there are some genuine people out there that want to learn and I dont believe there people should just be told to go to google. This surely means we would lose the essence of community and friendship that I believe is unique to this forum. We were all newbies at one point in our lives.

Fishies-for-me

I agree there are many newbies asking what we would consider very easy questions...I try to answer these even if I think it has been asked before. At one point I had 6 or 7 goldies in a 20 gallon tank...kept them for about 15 yrs like that...I raised a baby jack dempsey ( saved from the toilet bowl express) to an adult in a 20 gallon and kept him for about 7 yrs till I lost him in a very hot summer move . I have made many mistakes and have learned from them over about 30-35 yrs of keeping fish. If I can keep someone else from making some of the mistakes I have made in the past then I am happy to do so. There has been some troll activity in the betta forum as of late and after so much I try to ignore it as answering those peeps just encourages them and keeps them posting. I also agree people should not just be told to google it as many times there is very conflicting info on google. Now mind you if I have steered someone in the direction they need to go for an answer I may tel them to google it for more info than I can give them.....hmmm am I rambling now??...lol

pepetj

I honestly believe there are good questions we haven't even started asking for. I get what Allie means, though.

Since I discovered the search function for fishlore.com I have saved you from lots of unnecessary postings.

Nevertheless, some answers do change with time drastically (e.g. healthy REDOX has switched sides recently, from + to close to neutral to - potential); others are just evolving subjects with never before asked questions (e.g. DIY projects for: lighting, CO2, filtering options).

And some questions are quite rare but somehow -even if not posted here before- someone recalls something (e.g. temps above 28C seem to trigger a sudden-like-death metabolic syndrome in Red-Salmon Rainbowfish) that ends up making my day in fishkeeping (saved 2 out of 7, installed a chiller for that FW tank).

I confess I might have sounded "rude" at least once with another newbie; it was not my intention, I openly apologized for it, but I never saw that fishlorian again, not that I bang myself for it, but I regret I didn't took my time to review the way I wrote what I was trying to say.

I also confess feeling hostility when someone answers what may look as annoying questions but that I interpret as just coming from someone who doesn't know better, as well when someone doesn't get the type of reply they want or were expecting for. At least at fishlore, these are isolated episodes and someone else ends up smoothing things up.

The thing I love about fishlore, is that we come from different walks of life, yet, this is an overall warmth forum, with experts and newbies learning from each other.

I kept fish since I was 7 until I was 23 years old (1972-1988). I came back after 20 years hiatus after joining fishlore in April 2008, my life was going through a tough moment. My know-how was outdated, obsolete, and I started from zero again. It was a bit scary, but fishlore helped me pull this one through.

I don't know how to post multiple "quotes", but I agree with the FAQ in sub-forums to be a good starting point.

Pepe
Santo Domingo

clinton1621

I do understand that sometimes you get people who want to ask the same question 50 times, or they want to start an argument about something.... but instead of posting something rude, you can always just ignore that person and go on your way... dont lower yourself down to their level.

Chief_waterchanger

I agree with Clinton.

There is not room for rude behavior here. We often discipline people that are continuously rude. It is just better to ignore and move on than to post just because "someone else will do it if I don't."

(I use smileys a lot in my posts, mainly, because I think that helps get my tone across a bit better than plain text.)

CindyJ

I've been a member for a little while now but am still pretty new but I must admit that I don't post a whole lot for fear of being chastised(?).

When I joined I had never been on a forum let alone be a member of one and I really didn't know how things worked so I probably did post some of the same old stuff.

I kept fish in bowls tanks off an on for many years and never once did anyone at any of those fish stores in any of the 2 states I lived in ever tell me about the nitrogen cycle. So even if you find those questions annoying thats no reason (excuse) to jump on someone because your tired of that question. I didn't know about it till I joined here.

And i'm also a member of a cat breeder web site and there have been some heated discussions and people don't realize how much credibility they loose when they are rude and fighting. All of the usefull information gets lost.

There are always nice ways of getting a point across and times when we should just hit the back button and not respond at all, but that is hard and we are all human. There are nice ways of telling people they are overstocked.

There have been times i've had questions and not asked them for fear of somebody being rude because they think I should know the answer.

I love this place and hope that nobody takes my comments personally as they are not directed at anyone spacific but just the opinion of someone still fairly new to the site.

Take care everyone!

FishFolk

I agree that we should all take time to phrase things nicely. The 2 examples are great.

I don't think one should ignore seemingly pointless questions. This is a forum, not an encyclopedia site. Yes one can search off site. Yes, one can search on-site. Yes, most questions boil down to the same thing, but people tend to believe their problem, question or thought is unique. That is okay, because their issue is actually unique. It is theirs, not mine or yours - so maybe the fellowship of the site is what they need to get through ick, or a tank start-up, or the death of a fish. I know I have discussed repeat topics with those I trusted - Thanks to all of you who have chatted with me

I still find it hard to locate the info I want via search. The first month I was on, I didn't know there was a search feature. Now that I do, I don't always find what I need. It is very helpful to have someone point me in the right direction. I appreciate a response that politely sends me to a relevant link.

And let's remember that we don't all learn the same way. Discussing an issue often gives the learner a way to comprehend the why's and what's.

Then there are those people who want to press a point. That's when folks engaged need to read and reread what they post. The typed word is often misread. One can use smilies and explanations in parenthesis (sorry, sounds rude, but I don't mean it that way) to add the tone to your message.

Of course if you are just too fed up with the topic, you can ignore it - but let's make sure we don't alienate any potential fishkeepers because we felt they should know the answer.

Lucy

Very well put FishFolk.

kra-z-fishmumm

Some of us are just very bad at finding our way (me ) around web sites. I have never had anyone be rude to me here,,, I have had serious fish problems that seemed to go forever unaddressed, only to realize that it was a hard thing to figure out. No big deal. You finally get to where you need to go to get the information you need.

Peace All,,, Debbie

Coryd55

Well put. I completely agree.

sirdarksol

A good reminder.

However, I kind of disagree with the picture that's been painted of the forum, especially with the focus on the members who've been around for awhile.
When this thread was posted, I went back through the areas where newer members are most likely to post (Freshwater Disease, Freshwater Beginners, Bettas), and I saw a lot of "Example 2" and very little of "Example 1" (and nothing anywhere near as bad).
Further, on behalf of the forum, I take extreme exception to the "don'taskstupidquestions." This is one of the reasons that I love this forum so much. There's no such thing as a stupid question.

Now, the one place that I have noticed people complaining about rudeness has been when one member has disagreed with another. In almost all cases, this disagreement has been politely stated, yet exception was still taken.
This site will become worthless if everyone just agrees with everyone else. There are some things that most of us are going to agree on (like, fish should have a cycled tank). If you're on the minority side of something, especially something that most are going to see as animal cruelty, and you say "I see no problem with just tossing my fish in an uncycled tank," I would think it a failure of Fishlore if nobody explained, as politely as possible, why they think you're wrong.

The majority of the important stuff I know about fishkeeping wasn't learned by people being afraid to correct me. I learned it because the Chief, Dino, BettaCouple, Butterfly, and dozens of other folks told me I was wrong. They did it nicely, just like I see most folks around here doing every day. I learned it from dozens of new members who offered different points of view on what I'd taken for granted.

This entire thing is a balancing act. There are a few things that are so hard-and-fast that I would consider them to be rules (a betta cannot thrive in a .25g tank, a pacu cannot thrive in a 20g tank, discus can't thrive in a temperate tank), but most are up for interpretation, and, you may be surprised to know, have changed over the past year and a half that I've been here, and are still changing as we learn more.

Edit: CindyJ, I'm really sorry that you've felt unable to post questions. I've got to be honest that I'm confused. I looked at your questions from a year ago, expecting to see some rudeness, and saw that Dino, CWC, and Susitna answered them wonderfully.

Please don't be afraid to ask questions and, if anyone feels that an answer to their question was rude, please use the "Report Post" button in the lower left hand corner of the post. The mods usually get the message pretty quickly, and are happy to deal with such issues.

clinton1621

Well I was simply showing two possible examples, and not quoting anyone... I felt quoting specific posts would be rude and uncalled for in itself. My only point was that there is no need to come off as rude, condescending, or better than anyone else. We are all here to learn and share information, and we all know the difference between acting politely and acting like... well you know.

Oh and my 'dontaskstupidquestions' was actually referring to the people who feel like they have answered the same thing over and over again, and become sarcastic or curt in there subsequent answers on the same topic. The simple solution would be to refrain from answering these questions if they somehow offend you because you are "tired of hearing the same questions"... which I have heard people say. It is in this situation where it would be best to simply let someone else answer if you feel annoyed, or just give the person a link to the information they need and leave it at that, theres no need to express your disdain with questions because you already know the answer.

Edit: On CindyJ 's issue of being afraid... I think Lucy may remember this, there was a new member recently who stated he was afraid to ask his question. His reason?, he told us it was because he had browsed the site and saw some posts that seemed like they were attacking people who had a similar issue to his.

sirdarksol

Although this has come up several times in this post (mostly from people saying "sorry, I get frustrated when I hear the same question over and over again,") I have not seen it happen very much. What I have seen is members, both "veteran" and "novice," answering the common questions and problems, day after day, with mostly good cheer. I also see a dozen or more names that weren't here two days ago who are posting questions and answers already.
As I said, I think the picture you painted was far more dire than the truth.

CindyJ

Oh my, Nobody has acutally been rude to me personally but through reading other posts I haven't wanted to ask questions because I wondered if someone might make me look like the next dumb newbie if I don't know everything.

The people who helped me out when I first got here were super nice to me!! But I don't get on here as much as I would like and hoped that some would see my comments from the eyes of someone new and realize the impact they maybe making to the new people on this web site if they not very nice or things like that. My only intention was to help and let you know how other people may feel.

I will definately try to start posting more and would like to try to get to know you all. If that's ok.

Take care!!

rileyrk190

I feel that the biggest problem here, is that words can be interpreted in a million different ways. Without body language/ speech inflections, its very easy for someone to interpret a post as "attacking" them because of their lack of experience or many questions. When a person answers the same question multiple times, the answer might get shortened to the point of being a bit blunt. I know that everyone here has the best of intentions when posting and is genuinely trying to help you out, but a newcomer might not. I believe its important to keep this in mind, but also give the posters intentions the benefit of the doubt.

Chief_waterchanger

I tend to agree with Clinton.

I would say that bad things happening usually stick in someone's mind much better than when good things happen. By and large we have a bunch of really nice and helpful people, but I do think 'one bad apple can spoil the whole bunch.' We do a good job of policing ourselves, and have moderators, and a very active administrator to make sure all runs as smoothly as possible, but I definately think Clinton started a thread here that was much needed.

Fishfolk has stated things quite well with her post.

Mike

Everyone is making great points here and this is an excellent reminder for all of us. The last thing I want is for anyone to get discouraged or not post because of fear of someone being rude or making them feel inadequate as a fishkeeper. One of the primary reasons for creating FishLore was to not have that kind of atmosphere. See rule 1 of the Forum Rules:

"1. Discussion and debating is encouraged but rudeness, insulting posts, inflammatory posts or personal attacks will not be tolerated. Above all, be respectful of your fellow members."

Every post has a report post button/image that you can click to report a post. It goes straight to the moderators area and I think we deal with things pretty quickly. Please use that if someone's being rude or otherwise violating any of the forum rules. And please keep in mind that there are people (trolls) out there that like nothing more than to make other people miserable simply because they are miserable themselves. Those are people that we enjoy getting rid of. They contribute nothing but negativity to a forum. Getting 10 - 20 or more new members everyday we are bound to get a few of these types.

If you think someone should have searched for an answer first you can always just post a link to the search page in the post and say something like "I think there are several posts on what you're asking already, check out the search page." Like someone else already said, maybe they're new to computers and didn't know about using the search features. It doesn't hurt to point them in the right direction.

CindyJ

OMG That is so right! People do remember that bad things more than the good and yes 1 bad apple can do it. I've even seen people get ticked off if there question is not answered immediately. Which is not nice either to be so impatient especially if your needing help!

Thanks everyone!

clinton1621

I did not mean to sound as if the whole forum, or its members, were like this by any means... and I apologize if it sounds that way. I believe on the whole that, as you said, its usually cheerful and helpful =) Its one of those situations that Chief did a better job pointing out about apples and such lol

clinton1621

I would also like to add that wording your posts to make them SEEM less rude, does not make them less rude... and people can still tell the difference