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Old September 4th, 2008  
Fish Addict
 
anyone follow the markets?

Today is NOT a good day
Nags1965 is offline  
Old September 5th, 2008  
Fish Addict
 
yeah I read. I didn't trade. Have not done so for more than 3 weeks.
zeebo is offline  
Old September 12th, 2008  
Moderator
 
I follow it every day. It's very scary what the government is doing to the market.
agsansoo is offline  
Old September 12th, 2008  
Master Of Fish Poo!
 
Can't say that I ever follow the markets much. Our own miserable finances tell me enough about our dying economy.
COBettaCouple is offline  
Old September 12th, 2008  
Moderator
 
I'm on the same boat you are Dave ... It says RSM Titanic on the side of the US economy !
agsansoo is offline  
Old September 18th, 2008  
Fish Addict
 
This is such a rotten week.
zeebo is offline  
Old September 18th, 2008  
Fish Addict
 
I expect it to get much worse soon. People are starting to pull their money out of the banks for fear of losing it.

Hello 1929...
Hypnox is offline  
Old September 19th, 2008  
Fish Addict
 
funny how things can turn around just like THAT! Is it a correction or just a tease LOL.. I guess time will tell.

We are spending so much in gas its not even funny. I sure hope we get some help at the pump soon.. pity when the biggest decision of the day is food or gas..
Nags1965 is offline  
Old September 19th, 2008  
Moderator
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by agsansoo View Post
I follow it every day. It's very scary what the government is doing to the market.
Not just the government. Really, the government is just a symptom of the true problem: the citizens.
Citizens are putting weight on this country's financial institutions with all of the unpaid debt.
Banks were handing out huge housing loans that a person could only pay off if they lived on ramen for 30 years (I know, I was offered a loan twice as large as the one I got. My wife and I are cutting it close right now).
Consumers are racking up tens of thousands of dollars of debt with the expectation of filing for bankruptcy to get out of their debt. Even more are racking up debt and then just don't pay for it.
All of this has two impacts: First of all, it directly hurts the financial institutions that offered them this much credit (yes, it's the institution's fault, but it still has a huge impact on the country).
Second, it impacts what these people can then buy, which drags the economy down a little.

I pay a little attention to the markets, but my sensei is a genius when it comes to economy. He's said that this happens in roughly 80 year increments (and showed evidence of this) largely due to a cycle in societal values.
sirdarksol is offline  
Old September 19th, 2008  
Moderator
 
When you eliminate risk from a loan and investments. Banks don't care if they got paid back. They were thinking short term. Then people just walked way from their houses. Because they had nothing to lose (no down payment loans). Now banks are seeking a bail out. All this just encourages these people to act irresponsibly in the future. Nothing solved. Nothing learned.

This isn't over by a long shot !
agsansoo is offline  
Old September 22nd, 2008  
Fish Addict
 
Hi sirdarksol,

can you elaborate on the below. it wld be good to find out and understand more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sirdarksol View Post
my sensei is a genius when it comes to economy. He's said that this happens in roughly 80 year increments (and showed evidence of this) largely due to a cycle in societal values.
Thanks.
zeebo is offline  
Old September 22nd, 2008  
Moderator
 
Basically, there is a cycle of what is important in society. At the (arbitrarily assigned) beginning of the cycle, people are interested mostly in family and friends. Toward the end of the cycle, financial gain and owning things is the most important to people.

During the "importance of family and friends" part of the cycle, humanity supports itself. If one person falls on hard times, say, because his crops don't grow in, his fellows help support him. This is what allowed middle- and lower-class America survive the Great Depression as well as we did. People realized that they needed to help each other out, and did so. Government follows what society sees as important (thus, my statement of "Bush is a symptom, not a cause"), aiding in such recoveries.

As time progresses, however, newer generations become more concerned with acquisition. At first, this may seem like improvement of society. Everybody gets their hands on whatever new technology there is, which makes life easier.
This gets out of hand, though, with people overstretching their bounds. In the past, it was represented by nobility demanding too much of their serfs. Today, it is more represented by banks offering amounts of debt that they knew they wouldn't be able to collect on, and people buying houses/other stuff that people can't afford.

Then, the system falls apart. Much like in the human body, chaos ensues as the illness is purged. Once the lower and middle classes (be they serfs or citizens) can no longer survive on what they have, they rail against their fate. Sometimes this is by actually rising up and fighting. In this case, it is mostly by simply not paying. People begin to remember what is most important in life, which gets them through the tough times.

There are, of course, people who don't fit in. These people are known as counter-cultures. In the past, they were simply ridiculed. Hippies are an excellent example of a counter-culture. They realized that society's growing obsession with things and the fading importance of family and friends was harmful to society.

Using America as an example: Let's start today (end of the cycle) and go backwards. We are at the collapse. Go back to the 1929, and you find us at the Great Depression. From there, go back to 1849, and we have the Gold Rush. Because it forced westward expansion, we forget about the negative impacts of the Gold Rush, but it was a time of war and hatred. As the easy gold veins gave out, people went broke, towns disappeared.

The same scenario has played out in other countries. There are, to be sure, places where a physically strong ruler has managed to push back a revolt, or where society has figured it out before the cycle comes full-turn.
As I hinted at above, there have been people who have seen what was coming for decades. The hippies tried to derail the cycle entirely. As with any social movement, however, there was disagreement with how things happened. Some focused too much on drugs or "free love" to the full extent of its meanings. Others were militant in their methods. Without presenting a solid facade, the hippie movement couldn't stand up to society. Modern bohemians (artists and free-thinkers) have tried much the same thing (This is, by the way, what Rent was about, though it was small-scale). It's continued, but the efforts haven't been concerted. When a small group of Buddhists, and a small group of Christians, and a dozen small groups of humanitarians, etc... all go up against a corrupt system individually, it's like throwing rocks at a brick wall. Only by working together can they do anything effective. The problem is that each group has to overcome its dislike of the other groups for this to happen. Pride is a difficult thing to forgo.

Anyway, sorry for the dissertation. Sensei's speech was much longer. I tried to paraphrase and use more example than explanation.
sirdarksol is offline  
Old September 22nd, 2008  
Fish Addict
 
Thanks sirdarksol.

It's true and very scary.

I wonder how we will survive this one.

Today is another beating.
zeebo is offline  
Old September 22nd, 2008  
Moderator
 
In economic, its just another boom-bust cycle. We are headed for hyperinflation. All these bail-out we cost you more in higher prices. You notice nobody is mentioning increasing your taxes ? They will try to print (US dollars) their way out of this mess.
agsansoo is offline  
Old September 22nd, 2008  
Fish Addict
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by agsansoo View Post
In economic, its just another boom-bust cycle. We are headed for hyperinflation. All these bail-out we cost you more in higher prices. You notice nobody is mentioning increasing your taxes ? They will try to print (US dollars) their way out of this mess.
One would think that after 35 years of attempting to throw money at a problem in hopes that it will fix it that they would have figured out that it doesn't.

On the plus side, i'll be a billionaire soon with the way inflation is going. On the downside, it won't even buy me a loaf of bread.
Hypnox is offline  
Old September 22nd, 2008  
Moderator
 
To lighten this subject up a little. A cartoon.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 14.jpg (43.5 KB, 5 views)
agsansoo is offline  
Old September 22nd, 2008  
Moderator
 
Nice cartoon.

I wouldn't worry too much about how we're going to survive. Things will be rough, but today's youth are already figuring things out. They just don't yet have the influence to make the changes necessary.
What I really want to see is a large enough group figure it out beforehand and actually stop it from happening, or at least stall the cycle for a few decades, just to show that it can be done.

I agree that the whole throwing money thing is bad, and it's symptomatic of what caused this mess: A belief that enough money and enough belongings can solve anything.
sirdarksol is offline  
Old October 3rd, 2008  
Fish Addict
 
Hi,

I have to vent. Pls kindly put up with me.
Oh what a nail biting day.
I can't keep still.
zeebo is offline  
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