Chief_waterchanger

I've noticed there is a small group of people in the hobby that think using feeder fish for feeding to other fish... (go figure?) is a cruel/bad thing. A friend of mine and I were discussing it and I thought I'd post on here to get people's opinions. However, keep in mind, if you are against feeding fish to other fish do not then feed your fish flake food... guess what is in that....... yep fish meal!

So we use feeder fish as another piece of the variety we feed some of our cichlids. Dino and I had a good laugh, he said, "Yeah, god bless the person riding up and down the amazon sprinkling flake food to the fish." (then he proceeded to point out the fish meal ingredient)

I'm curious as to how many on here think it a bad thing, and what their reasoning is, mainly.

COBettaCouple

I feel like any pet that you care for should get their proper food, be it algae or live food. I'm not going to sit there and get my jollies off of watching 1 fish eat another like the jerks that post vids on youtube, but i'd be ready to give proper care to any pet -- that's the responsibility i feel you take when you buy the pet.

Kevin

i have no problem using a fish for what it was breed to do...be food
if you buy an oscar...and he wont eat the cichlid sticks you try to feed him...are you just going to let him die?

Sabi

I believe each type of fish should have the right type of food that it'l eat in its natural environment. Or what is as possible for aquarium hobbiest, of course.

Yep! Thats just it. Most fish maintain good health only if fed the correct food so you cant not feed an oscar live foods if its best for him and try and force him to eat something else. Very likely he'l be sickly or die.

sirdarksol

While I doubt I'll ever be able to buy a fish that needs feeder fish, due to personal preference, I have no problem with people feeding fish, or other live animals, to their carnivorous pets, as long as they don't purposefully turn it into torture. (for example: piranhas will torture their food just with the way they eat it, that's fine. Purposefully prolonging a feeder animal's suffering by dangling it over the cage, or "rescuing" it, only to put it back into danger after it's been given a break, is torture)

My beef with feeder fish is that they aren't good for your fish. Take a look at the feeder fish tank at your pet store. I'd wager you 100 to one that the tank is severely overcrowded. I'd wager you 50 to one that the water is cloudy with feces. And while I may not win every bet, I guarantee I'll come out ahead. In this type of environment, it doesn't take the fish's body very long to use up the majority of its nutrients in an attempt to keep itself alive. This means that these fish are extremely low in important vitamins and minerals. They're basically fishmeal at that point. Might as well feed the carnivore fish flakes. Then there's the fact that each of these tanks is literally swimming with disease, which means that every time you feed your fish, you're exposing it to that disease.
It's my belief that the best way to do the feeder fish thing is to raise your own guppies or mollies and use them as feeder fish. They breed readily, and that way you can be sure that they are being cared for and are healthy (which translates to healthy for the carnivore).

armadillo

Check this one out. Funny, precisely the same subject, with a completely different twist! http://www.fishlore.com/Forum/index.php?topic=11841.0

Chief_waterchanger

Just my point of view, but... if the conditions at the stores make them 'not good' then 99.9% of fish at stores I've seen aren't good.
(stops playing devil's advocate)
I ain't one of those jollie seekers either. I do plan to raise our own in a 150g tank we are getting this weekend.

armadillo

The Chief, you and I need to start our own devil's advocates agency!

Bonochick

When I was a kid, we'd get feeder fish to keep as pets.

I feel bad that they are used for food, but I suppose that's life. It's not like I'm a vegetarian either, so...guess I have no room to talk.

Tom

It is only a part of life, the smaller fish gets eaten by the larger fish. That's how it goes. I don't find anything wrong with it.
Tom

sirdarksol

You're exactly right. But this is about a hundred times as bad. Honestly, if I got a fish that preferred moving food, I would have to set up the feeder tank before I bought the carnivore, because I would be afraid of the potential for disease even if I bought a "normal" guppy or whatever to feed the critter.

Chief_waterchanger

Understandable about the disease aspect of the situation. As I said, I mainly was playing devils advocate before I headed to work this morning.

Butterfly

a little bored were we ?
I have put breeding platies in angel tanks so the angels could eat the fry to condition them(the angels) for breeding. I agree also with bought feeders possibly being diseased.
Carol

Cody

it depends like the feeder goldfish i could care less about..... but i just hate the fact that someone buys beautiful guppys and destroys them....i woudnt ever protest or yell at anyone for doing it....im sure if i had oscars i would give them fish ...

sirdarksol

"That's the problem. We only care about the cute animals.
We should just hold auditions.
'What are you?'
'I'm an otter.'
'And what do you do?'
'I swim around on my back all day and do cute little human things with my hands.'
'You're free to go.'
'And what are you?'
'I'm a cow.'
'Get on the truck.'
'I'm an animal, I have rights.'
'You're a baseball glove, get on the truck.'"

Chief_waterchanger

I can also be called a horrible person because I feed culled fish to my fish-eaters. So if you compair that to humans I am feeding the hadicapped to the hadicapped eatters. (before anyone jumps on the flame cwc bandwagon that is a joke.)
(devils advocate again )
Nothing with physical deformalities will be sold by the fishhouse. Therefore if there are 200 guppy fry born one week and 1 or 2 have deformalities those 1 or 2 are fed to something. It comes down to number crunching and tank space.

But as far as feeder fish that are born and raised for being fed to something... chicken, cow, pig, etc, etc, etc.. Some people think plants have feelings, so if they are right what then would planting lettuce and making a salad after it grows be like?

sirdarksol

Nothing wrong with culling, especially if the culled fish are being used. I actually applaud that. A lot of koi breeders just kill the culled fish. Not culling allows the deformities to spread. Human society tends to deal with this on its own by discouraging those with severely debilitating genetic disabilities (such as extreme Downs Syndrome or Ring 22) from procreating.

As far as the plant thing, the majority of people who think that plants have feelings are of the mindset of doing as little harm as possible to the world. Buddhists feel this way. They believe even minerals have an existence of sorts. However, one must eat to live, so they attempt to eat the most efficient things they can. Because you could live for years on the amount of rice it would take to raise a single cow to optimal slaughtering age/size, eating rice (and other veggies) causes less harm than eating meat.
Note: I'm not saying that this is what people should do, just giving an insight into how other people think.

sweetbroadway

I cannot find a pet store in my area to sell feeder fish. So I choose frozen. Can any fish be a feeder fish as long as it is smaller?

MagpieTear

It's nature's way. Eat or be eaten. It is only since we have taken to Condos and timeshares instead of the tree limb and mud hut that these concepts of mercy and compassion have formed. Nature culls the weak and the infirm. Predators evolved under that rule. If you choose to buy a predator, it is your obligation and responsibility to feed that predator properly. Doing otherwise is no different that putting a common pleco in a 10 gallon tall tank. Irresponsible. If it bothers you (it does me to a small extent, hence I have cute little tetras and ghost shrimp, not barracuda or phirana,) don't buy predators.

Chief_waterchanger

The only problems that arise with choice of feeders is to ensure that if it is a predator fish that needs 99% live food, do not feed 100% feeder goldfish. They lack a vitamin that is needed, once a deficiency is developed the fish begins to get 'hole in the head' disease. If the fish will eat it, most anything could be used for feeders. The reason you have feeder guppy and feeder goldfish distinguished from other guppies/goldfish is that they are usually the low end of the gene pool, not the fancier types.

Allie

We use feeders for our Datnoids, but as a treat once in awhile. They are neat hunters (one of the attraction about Datnoids is how they hunt), and we feel to not let them have feeders that they'd not be happy.
When our Africans produce hybrids (hopefully not) they will be feeders for the Africans. Just let mom spit in the main tank & instant meal.
I don't agree with people keeping piranha and feeding them any kind of fish just to see how they hunt. We'd give em goldfish once in awhile but shrimp is what they liked. It's not like the feeder suffer in a large school of piranha anyway...they get gobbled up to fast.

voiceless_kat

Devil's Advocate LOL....more like a ? disturber. Carry on.

Sir Darksol....love your post..."You're a baseball glove, get on the truck...." That was a good laugh.

First time I saw a tank of feeder fish I just thought it was a horribly overcrowded tank at the LFS...duh ( ya, I am blonde) And you are right, the water was grey .....I am the worlds' biggest bleeding heart liberal, so shouldn't say much. Personally I would rather have someone else do the dirty work and just use the end product: fish flakes; steak; chicken wings; pork chops!!! Leather shoes - LOTS of leather shoes! Funny how we can justify that!

However I was the girl who was going to "experiment " with feeder guppies to determine if my well water was suitable for my tanks. So I suppose I was willing to sacrifice them....Couldn't find feeders here, bought fancies, fell in love and am now the proud fish mom of 25 babies and 3 adults,.. all in well water..and as they say, it is all downhill from here. TSM D & - I think??!!

PS: an experiment by Dr. David Suzuki has shown that plants and trees DO react to stimuli like torn leaves, axes, etc. ( In my comedic world, that is pain........I am going to go eat a salad -- )Imagine what a grape goes through?? We are all hypocrites!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Free thought in the free world!!!! We are the luckiest people ever.

A great debate indeed!

sirdarksol

Most of them, yes. Fish that have natural defenses may be bad choices. Guppies, mollies, and platies, as far as I know, would be some of the best choices if you wanted to breed your own (since they are all live breeders and breed like crazy.)
With most fish, frozen vs alive has little to do with nutrition. Rather, it's about whether or not the fish will eat what it sees as carrion. If it will eat the stuff, that's probably fine. Personally, I would move such meals around to stimulate the hunting instinct. (For example, if you're feeding piranhas, holding a piece of shrimp with a pair of forceps and moving it around the tank, making the piranha work for its meal). Whether you're feeding mostly live food or not, you should change the diet around, using worms, shrimp, fish, to vary the diet.

COBettaCouple

I feed bbs to fry and if I had fish that needed live food, I'd give it to them. I just like it to be as humane as possible, since even 'food' deserves to be treated humanely.