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November 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Helper
| ICH in a planted tank
Looks like I am having my first test... I brought in some neon tetras early last week and now I am seeing spots on my fish. Only one or two spots on most fish - none on some - but the neons are the most heavily affected.
My questions deal with the planted tank. How should I treat it? With the carpeting plants and root plants, you cant really gravel vac very much. Ive been inching the heat up bit by bit over the hours - up to 80 or 81 now.
Will medication impact the plants? What about my shrimp? Are there medecations that are shrimp safe? ICH Log
11/1/2009 - Noticed a few white specks on a fish or two, and then found several of the neons (newest fish) with many specks. Thats what I get for not quarantining. Raised the temperature a bit to at least 80, took photos of suspect fish.
11/2/2009 - I have decided to do heat and salt. I know the salt will have some negative effects, but so will the heat. Even if the salt and heat kill off leaves, the plant will probably come back. I have raised the temp some more, its about 81-82 right now. I did a good 30% water change and added aquarium salt at the half the dosage on the box (I did 1 tbls per 10 gallons).
I also got a narrow pipe gravel vac and got everywhere I could. There was significant waste in the tank, so hopefully I got some of the spores. No confirmed fish deaths so far, but I am only able to count 6 of the 7 neons, but I dont see a corpse anywhere. The rainbows, SAE, and Platy couple have no signs of the disease. All other fish have spots ranging from 1-2 to around a dozen. I added an airstone as well. I lost a plant overnight to the heat, I guess hygrophila doesnt like it hot!
11/3/2009 - As of this morning all fish are accounted for. Throughout yesterday and yesterday night I brought up the temperature to around 84. Everyone is coping, and as of yet I have not seen any effects of salt on the plants. Still seeing cysts.
Did another 20% water change with gravel vac last night. Added another tablespoon of salt after the change. Temp fluctuates around 84 degrees depending on room temp. There are fewer visible cysts, but they are still there. Soaked food in Garlic Guard. All fish accounted for.
11/4/2009 - Did another 15-20% water change and vaccuum. Temp around 84 still. All fish are doing well and accounted for. They got fed some garlic guard soaked flakes today. Still seeing some cysts on a few fish. Added another two tablespoons of aquarium salt during the water change.
11/5/2009 - more of the same, water change, salt, heat. All fish accounted for. Fish initially showing cysts arent much anymore, but they are still there on the pleco and pristella tetras.
11/6/2009 - I couldnt get the water warmer than 84, so I added another heater and brought it up to 86 degrees. I didnt add as much of the salt this time, as I am just trying to prevent it from reporucing and surviving with the heat.
11/8/2009 - Didnt do a water change today. I am not seeing anymore spots as best I can tell. Will keep the water at this temp for several more days.
11/9/2009 - No water change today either. I am definately not seeing any spots on any fish.
11/12/2009 - Well, the fish did better than me over the last few days. I was sick over the weekend. Day before yesterday was exciting because the city cut our power off to work on some cables. Without giving any advance notice they were going to have it off for 8 hours! I put blankets around the tank to insulate it and keep my temps up, and I went out and bought a 26 Ah 12v battery, and an inverter. I used this to run the filters, air pump, and heater while the power was out. It must take a lot of energy to heat water as the air pump and two filters only uses about 15 watts of power combined, and the heater uses 100 watts. Im keeping the temp up a day or two longer before starting to bring it down.
11/16/2009 - Temps are back around 78-79 now. All fish are accounted for. No sign of the disease for 5 days now. Plants have resumed their growth after I tuned the CO2 back on. Looks like high heat for a good 14 days will do it!
Last edited by jprime84; November 16th, 2009 at 08:31 AM.
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November 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Helper
| The more I read, I think I will try an elevated temperature treatment for starters. I will turn off my CO2 in the meantime as water holds less oxygen the warmer it is. | |
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November 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Helper
| Arg! None of my fish's prefered temperatures go up to the 86 degrees recommended to wipe out ich. Many of them only are supposed to go up to 77 or 78 degrees. What should I do? | |
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November 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Helper
| My fish were not recommended for temps over the 80 degree mark either, but with fairly frequent water changes and lots of aeration they did fine. My fish were at 84 for two weeks, I'm not so sure that I would go up to 86. My fish seem to be fine now with no signs of ich, fingers crossed. Good luck and I'm sure you will get more answers soon  | |
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November 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| I had in Ich in my planted and you are right about vacing. Its very tough to get in there to do it.
I tried the heat method as I had fish that were ok with high temps. I was up to 87 for 2 weeks and it just got worse. I tried several different meds but the only one that worked was Coppersafe. I did lose a few plants during the process but I believe that was due to Salt treatments. I didnt have Cories,Otos, or Cats. They dont care for Coppersafe as I recall. The all natural stuff Ich Attack didnt work for me at all but I have read good things about it from other posters. It was supposed to be safe for plants as well.
I think my strain of Ich was resistant to Meds. | |
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November 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Helper
| I am almost certain that it came from the neons I got. I will be doing quarantine for all future fish... Hopefully my LFS will have some advice. I am also bringing in pictures to ensure correct diagnosis. | |
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November 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Helper
| Would you agree that at this point, it is not safe to quarantine only the fish showing spots and treat that separate tank? I would assume that I cannot be safe in assuming the rest of the tank does not have the parasite in some form in it. | |
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November 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Helper
| Once you have ich, your tank also has it unfortunately. My ich came from cardinal tetras that were new to the tank as well as being in the middle of cycle. I just gravel vaced through the plants, most didn't make it, but most of the fish did. | |
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November 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Helper
| It sounds like my options are to simply raise the temperature and hope for the best (possibly at the risk of plants/fish) or to remove the shrimp and treat it chemically, and just risk the plants and possibly some of the fish. | |
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November 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| What's the trouble of uprooting the plants and doing gravel vacs? Is your tank fully planted? | |
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November 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| Quote:
Originally Posted by jprime84  It sounds like my options are to simply raise the temperature and hope for the best (possibly at the risk of plants/fish) or to remove the shrimp and treat it chemically, and just risk the plants and possibly some of the fish. | If you do choose to medicate at some point, be very cautious of any product with copper as a main ingredient. Even removing the shrimp during the medication period may not be enough.
From Kordon's website: Quote:
The proper copper treatment for immediate action against parasites is a product with copper ions. However, it is a very powerful treatment and needs to be used with caution. Once copper ions are in solution, whether from chelated copper or copper ion treatments, they remain there and are absorbed by glass, gravel, sand, rocks, coral, various plastics, etc., and stay in the aquarium or pond permanently unless chemically removed. When there are fluctuations in pH (acidity/alkalinity) in the water, part of the copper that has been absorbed can return to solution and be toxic to the aquatic inhabitants, including the fishes. This can be the reason for sudden die offs when least expected and for no apparent reason, long after a copper treatment has been used.
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November 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| Mathas is right. Coppersafe is nasty stuff for inverts. Though my pond snail population didnt suffer a bit sadly.
IMO if you have a place to keep the fish and treat them seperately it might be the best option but there are drawbacks as well. Without a host Ich cannot survive for long so the tank so the plants would be safer, but you would also put alot more stress on the fish themselves.
Heat and water changes didnt take me far at all as you just cant get in to clean as well. The other option if you have a place to keep the plants is as Eingh suggested remove the plants and keep them seperate. Maybe a potassium permanganate dip might help. Then you would be able to clean the substrate properly. The plants would not be happy without the light and Co2 in this option.
Ich attack is another option as I said. It didnt work for me but I read enough positive things about it for me to keep it just in case.
It sounds like you learned the hard way as I did. QT is a must with planted tanks! | |
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November 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Helper
| I dont really want to uproot things at this point. THe root systems were pretty complex weeks ago the last time i did that, and they will have grown since then. Ill keep progress of my situation in the main post of this thread. | |
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November 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| In that case just up your temps to 84 for two weeks and keep us on the loop. | |
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November 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Master
| You might be able to get away with the 84 temps for a steady 2 weeks..add an extra bubble wand for the less of oxygen issue..dont go over 84 as that is plenty high enough and no need to stress the fish even more..if its not ich, and the spots just go away (my angels and neons have white spots occasionally but they never get worse) the warmer temps wont hurt them with proper airation in the tank.....if after 2 weeks it seems gone, you should be good to go ..if you still have some, or it comes back, you are going to have to make the decision to vac as much as you can and risk the plants...i wouldnt medicate as that would be harsh on the fish and plants IMO ... | |
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November 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Helper
| Depending on what the store says after seeing my pics (ill also post them here), I may do the temp thing. If I do that, I will lower my water level a few inches so that my filters produce a lot of agitation. I will also turn off the CO2 for the period, as it can lower oxygen levels as well.
What stress signs would I look for in fish that would let me know its getting too hot for them? | |
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November 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Master
| lowering the water isnt enough extra oxygen they need IMO....it moves the water more which yes, does cause some oxygen levels to rise, I dont think its enough when the temps are going so much higher...you really need the extra airstone and pump IMO ...you can get both for about $15 with tubing and stones as you dont need a huge air pump..(or at least in my LFS )stress signs will be lethargic fish, or spiratic swimming...not eating and just not acting themselves...pretty much them acting out of the norm of their behavoir...good luck either way | |
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November 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Helper
| I have a spare air pump and stone that I can toss in there. Ill also look for a narrower gravel vac. That will allow me to poke around the plants and at least do a basic vacuum. | |
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November 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Master
| im sure you are so frustrated  that planted tank looks amazing and then to have this happen..maybe its not ich and its just some ramdom spots ...you will know either way in a couple days as if its ich, it usually gets worse before it starts to look better.... | |
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November 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Helper
| It is Ich 100%. Confirmed by store employees, plus more fish have the spots now. My poor clown pleco (one of my favorites) has them bad.
updated original post with todays actions, pics to come. | |
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November 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Master
| good luck..hope things work out for you...but I think the salt is going to stress them more | |
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November 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Helper
| Here is the guy where I first noticed the breakout. Quarantine your fish!
The salt makes the water harsh to the parasite, and helps the fish maintain their slime coat and electorlytes while the parasite feeds from them. It may irritate them some, but probably not as much as having parasites drain you of your bodily fluid.
At any rate, from my research and advice that seemed like the best route to take.
Last edited by Shawnie; November 2nd, 2009 at 05:57 PM.
Reason: merging back to back posts | |
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November 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Master
| Quote:
Originally Posted by jprime84 Here is the guy where I first noticed the breakout. Quarantine your fish!
The salt makes the water harsh to the parasite, and helps the fish maintain their slime coat and electorlytes while the parasite feeds from them. It may irritate them some, but probably not as much as having parasites drain you of your bodily fluid.
At any rate, from my research and advice that seemed like the best route to take. |  are with you and your babies! | |
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November 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Lore Newbie
| Great tank, I would up the temperatre to 82 deg f, use 1ml of ws3 for 1 week then do a 20% water change. Monitor your fish and if it appears ich is still present, then repeat for another week and then bring the temperture gradually down to 79 - 80 deg. Alternatively you can use methylene blue, but.. it stains the plants, seals and decor... although I found it does wear off the plants after a week..
As shawnie says, adding an air stone is required if you increase the temperature, warmer water is less oxyginated.
Might be a good idea to get your self a small 25 - 50 litre tank to use as a quarantine tank then you can place fish into this before introducing to your main tank.
also, always acclimatise first, i.e. leave in bag for 25 mins or so until its same temperature, fish can show a similar looking effect from putting the fish into much colder water than they were living in which is why acclimatisation is a must!. And never just pour the fish straight in, the shops water may be infected! which I have seen in the past.
Anyway, good luck.. I am sure you'll sort it out we've all been there.. | |
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November 5th, 2009
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| | Fish Helper
| updated main post with progress | |
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November 5th, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| Nice way to keep a log...those using the search in the future will appreciate that!
I am glad to hear the fish are still eating. Thats a good sign. | |
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November 8th, 2009
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| | Fish Helper
| updated, all fish still doing well | |
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November 9th, 2009
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| | Fish Helper
| That's great, congrats! | |
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November 9th, 2009
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| | Fish Helper
| ok, all of the fish are clean now for sure. How long should I keep the temps raised before bringing it back down? | |
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November 9th, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| I would go 2 weeks to be safe. Also when they arent on the fish is the best time to do your gravel vac. (as best as you can) So far so good but you will know within the next few days for sure. That is how long it will take them to go through the various stages and become reattached.
How are the plants doing? | |
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