jprime84

Looks like I am having my first test... I brought in some neon tetras early last week and now I am seeing spots on my fish. Only one or two spots on most fish - none on some - but the neons are the most heavily affected.

My questions deal with the planted tank. How should I treat it? With the carpeting plants and root plants, you cant really gravel vac very much. Ive been inching the heat up bit by bit over the hours - up to 80 or 81 now.

Will medication impact the plants? What about my shrimp? Are there medecations that are shrimp safe?


ICH Log

11/1/2009 - Noticed a few white specks on a fish or two, and then found several of the neons (newest fish) with many specks. Thats what I get for not quarantining. Raised the temperature a bit to at least 80, took photos of suspect fish.

11/2/2009 - I have decided to do heat and salt. I know the salt will have some negative effects, but so will the heat. Even if the salt and heat kill off leaves, the plant will probably come back. I have raised the temp some more, its about 81-82 right now. I did a good 30% water change and added aquarium salt at the half the dosage on the box (I did 1 tbls per 10 gallons).
I also got a narrow pipe gravel vac and got everywhere I could. There was significant waste in the tank, so hopefully I got some of the spores. No confirmed fish deaths so far, but I am only able to count 6 of the 7 neons, but I dont see a corpse anywhere. The rainbows, SAE, and Platy couple have no signs of the disease. All other fish have spots ranging from 1-2 to around a dozen. I added an airstone as well. I lost a plant overnight to the heat, I guess hygrophila doesnt like it hot!

11/3/2009 - As of this morning all fish are accounted for. Throughout yesterday and yesterday night I brought up the temperature to around 84. Everyone is coping, and as of yet I have not seen any effects of salt on the plants. Still seeing cysts.
Did another 20% water change with gravel vac last night. Added another tablespoon of salt after the change. Temp fluctuates around 84 degrees depending on room temp. There are fewer visible cysts, but they are still there. Soaked food in Garlic Guard. All fish accounted for.

11/4/2009 - Did another 15-20% water change and vaccuum. Temp around 84 still. All fish are doing well and accounted for. They got fed some garlic guard soaked flakes today. Still seeing some cysts on a few fish. Added another two tablespoons of aquarium salt during the water change.

11/5/2009 - more of the same, water change, salt, heat. All fish accounted for. Fish initially showing cysts arent much anymore, but they are still there on the pleco and pristella tetras.

11/6/2009 - I couldnt get the water warmer than 84, so I added another heater and brought it up to 86 degrees. I didnt add as much of the salt this time, as I am just trying to prevent it from reporucing and surviving with the heat.

11/8/2009 - Didnt do a water change today. I am not seeing anymore spots as best I can tell. Will keep the water at this temp for several more days.

11/9/2009 - No water change today either. I am definately not seeing any spots on any fish.

11/12/2009 - Well, the fish did better than me over the last few days. I was sick over the weekend. Day before yesterday was exciting because the city cut our power off to work on some cables. Without giving any advance notice they were going to have it off for 8 hours! I put blankets around the tank to insulate it and keep my temps up, and I went out and bought a 26 Ah 12v battery, and an inverter. I used this to run the filters, air pump, and heater while the power was out. It must take a lot of energy to heat water as the air pump and two filters only uses about 15 watts of power combined, and the heater uses 100 watts. Im keeping the temp up a day or two longer before starting to bring it down.

11/16/2009 - Temps are back around 78-79 now. All fish are accounted for. No sign of the disease for 5 days now. Plants have resumed their growth after I tuned the CO2 back on. Looks like high heat for a good 14 days will do it!

jprime84

The more I read, I think I will try an elevated temperature treatment for starters. I will turn off my CO2 in the meantime as water holds less oxygen the warmer it is.

jprime84

Arg! None of my fish's prefered temperatures go up to the 86 degrees recommended to wipe out ich. Many of them only are supposed to go up to 77 or 78 degrees. What should I do?

Melissawater

My fish were not recommended for temps over the 80 degree mark either, but with fairly frequent water changes and lots of aeration they did fine. My fish were at 84 for two weeks, I'm not so sure that I would go up to 86. My fish seem to be fine now with no signs of ich, fingers crossed. Good luck and I'm sure you will get more answers soon

Nate McFin

I had in Ich in my planted and you are right about vacing. Its very tough to get in there to do it.
I tried the heat method as I had fish that were ok with high temps. I was up to 87 for 2 weeks and it just got worse. I tried several different meds but the only one that worked was Coppersafe. I did lose a few plants during the process but I believe that was due to Salt treatments. I didnt have Cories,Otos, or Cats. They dont care for Coppersafe as I recall. The all natural stuff Ich Attack didnt work for me at all but I have read good things about it from other posters. It was supposed to be safe for plants as well.
I think my strain of Ich was resistant to Meds.

jprime84

I am almost certain that it came from the neons I got. I will be doing quarantine for all future fish... Hopefully my LFS will have some advice. I am also bringing in pictures to ensure correct diagnosis.

jprime84

Would you agree that at this point, it is not safe to quarantine only the fish showing spots and treat that separate tank? I would assume that I cannot be safe in assuming the rest of the tank does not have the parasite in some form in it.

Melissawater

Once you have ich, your tank also has it unfortunately. My ich came from cardinal tetras that were new to the tank as well as being in the middle of cycle. I just gravel vaced through the plants, most didn't make it, but most of the fish did.

jprime84

It sounds like my options are to simply raise the temperature and hope for the best (possibly at the risk of plants/fish) or to remove the shrimp and treat it chemically, and just risk the plants and possibly some of the fish.

eiginh

What's the trouble of uprooting the plants and doing gravel vacs? Is your tank fully planted?

mathas

If you do choose to medicate at some point, be very cautious of any product with copper as a main ingredient. Even removing the shrimp during the medication period may not be enough.

From Kordon's website:

Nate McFin

Mathas is right. Coppersafe is nasty stuff for inverts. Though my pond snail population didnt suffer a bit sadly.
IMO if you have a place to keep the fish and treat them seperately it might be the best option but there are drawbacks as well. Without a host Ich cannot survive for long so the tank so the plants would be safer, but you would also put alot more stress on the fish themselves.
Heat and water changes didnt take me far at all as you just cant get in to clean as well. The other option if you have a place to keep the plants is as Eingh suggested remove the plants and keep them seperate. Maybe a potassium permanganate dip might help. Then you would be able to clean the substrate properly. The plants would not be happy without the light and Co2 in this option.
Ich attack is another option as I said. It didnt work for me but I read enough positive things about it for me to keep it just in case.
It sounds like you learned the hard way as I did. QT is a must with planted tanks!

jprime84

I dont really want to uproot things at this point. THe root systems were pretty complex weeks ago the last time i did that, and they will have grown since then. Ill keep progress of my situation in the main post of this thread.

eiginh

In that case just up your temps to 84 for two weeks and keep us on the loop.

Shawnie

You might be able to get away with the 84 temps for a steady 2 weeks..add an extra bubble wand for the less of oxygen issue..dont go over 84 as that is plenty high enough and no need to stress the fish even more..if its not ich, and the spots just go away (my angels and neons have white spots occasionally but they never get worse) the warmer temps wont hurt them with proper airation in the tank.....if after 2 weeks it seems gone, you should be good to go ..if you still have some, or it comes back, you are going to have to make the decision to vac as much as you can and risk the plants...i wouldnt medicate as that would be harsh on the fish and plants IMO ...

jprime84

Depending on what the store says after seeing my pics (ill also post them here), I may do the temp thing. If I do that, I will lower my water level a few inches so that my filters produce a lot of agitation. I will also turn off the CO2 for the period, as it can lower oxygen levels as well.

What stress signs would I look for in fish that would let me know its getting too hot for them?

Shawnie

lowering the water isnt enough extra oxygen they need IMO....it moves the water more which yes, does cause some oxygen levels to rise, I dont think its enough when the temps are going so much higher...you really need the extra airstone and pump IMO ...you can get both for about $15 with tubing and stones as you dont need a huge air pump..(or at least in my LFS )stress signs will be lethargic fish, or spiratic swimming...not eating and just not acting themselves...pretty much them acting out of the norm of their behavoir...good luck either way

jprime84

I have a spare air pump and stone that I can toss in there. Ill also look for a narrower gravel vac. That will allow me to poke around the plants and at least do a basic vacuum.