Siggghhhh ICK ( another thread)

[Nate McFin]

Hey gang,
Well 2 weeks since the intro of the Cardinals into the tank (No quarantine as they were the first and likely the only fish to go into the tank)
Anyway I woke up this morning and went to feed the hungry beasties and I noticed white spots on several fish and several more had it in the fins. No pics of ityet but I did a search this morning and found this pic of ICH on a cardinal. It looks exactly like this on the ones that have it in the fins and as said some actually have it on the body.

I didn't have much time before I left for work this morning but I did manage to read that the heat should be turned up. I turned it up to 80 and then a few hours later while I was on break up to 82. Temp on digital thermo now read 82.2 on the furthest side from the heaters. I also turned the UV light back on.
I read lots of conflicting info on various sites regarding what temp it should be (some said 82, some said 84)
Some said medicine, some said not
Some said Salt some said not
Can I get the straight scoop from the folks that I trust the most. Pretty please LOL
This seriously bums me out as I haven't had any casualties since they moved in. All are eating well moving about and have good color so far.
Should I be adding anything like Stress coat as well?

[AlyeskaGirl]

ICH can be difficult to get rid of sometimes before it kills your fish so I would try salt and raise the temp to 84 for two weeks it can't hurt them as long as it's done slowly just make sure there is enough oxygen, airstone. Along with water changes, good gravel vacs to pickup the spores. Put salt back in tank that would be enough for the water you only took out.

[cmoreland]

Pretty much what she said :-D

[Nate McFin]

How much salt should be added?

[AlyeskaGirl]

For API Freshwater Aquarium Salt, follow the directions on the box. So add enough salt to treat the whole tank. I have a 20-gal and I usually add 4-5 Tablespoons when I use it for a med or sometimes only half. Then when you perform a water/gravel vac ONLY add salt for the amount of water you took out because it doesn't evaporate. It tells you that on the box.

[Nate McFin]

Thanks Alyeska. I picked up the salt this afternoon it is the API. I read that tetras are sensitive to Salt so I will start with a half dose. My plants aren't going to appreciate it either but I will keep my fingers crossed everything turns out.
The fish started flashing this morning as well. The temp is now at 84.5. The fish are still eating well and some of the spots seem to be clearing up but a few fish have quite a few spots. Mostly on the tail fin. Hopefully I caught it in time and it isn't the Florida strain I have been reading about. The UV is still going as well.
Any thoughts on adding stress coat to the mix as well?

[AlyeskaGirl]

Originally Posted by Nate McFin

Thanks Alyeska. I picked up the salt this afternoon it is the API. I read that tetras are sensitive to Salt so I will start with a half dose. My plants aren't going to appreciate it either but I will keep my fingers crossed everything turns out.
The fish started flashing this morning as well. The temp is now at 84.5. The fish are still eating well and some of the spots seem to be clearing up but a few fish have quite a few spots. Mostly on the tail fin. Hopefully I caught it in time and it isn't the Florida strain I have been reading about. The UV is still going as well.
Any thoughts on adding stress coat to the mix as well?

ICH can be difficult to get rid of sometimes. I also have Tetras and I still give the full dose when needed. The reason they are sensitive to salt is because they come from water that has low electrolytes. The salt adds electrolytes. Same for the Angelfish. I believe I read that somewhere. Someone please correct me if i am wrong. Also scaless fish such as Loaches and Catfish this includes the pleco too can't have salt because it irritates their skin.

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article5.html


Sure you can add Stress Coat. That's my main water conditioner.

[Nate McFin]

Thanks again!
OK day 3- Fish still have visible spots. Some look new others have fallen off. All the fish are still eating well and their color is good. They are still flashing though not as much. They look like they are shuttering their fins. (If that makes sense)
Overall I would say it is looking better but still definately there.
At what point in this process would you recommend a medicinal approach if at all. After a week if still showing signs? Sorry for asking so many questions but while I am at work its all I think about! Poor little guys, never thought I would worry about fish so much! LOL
Also how frequent should I do a water change. My change yesterday was 50% and then another 50% after I added the water back as there was alot of gravel I didn't get to during the first vac. I was afraid to do another one today because it really seems to freak them out and I dont want to cause more stress than I have to. All water params look great 0 ammonia 0 nitrite 10 nitrate.
Thanks so much for your help and understanding.
-Nate-

EDIT: DISREGARD WATER CHANGE QUESTION.....DAILY =( I guess the poor guys are gonna have to deal with it. Still curious about meds though.

[Nate McFin]

Update time-
I have been doing alot of reading of various threads on the net about ICH. One thing most have in common is no conclusion and final result. I will finish this one to the end.

So day 6-
ICH is still present. Temp has been at 84.5. Water changes every other day and UV running during the day only as it has a pretty strong current and I want them to rest well.
Salt has been added with each water change to replace the part I took out.
It did seem to get better and I only had 2 fish showing any cysts but this morning they are back and I would say 7 or so have signs. None of the fish have more than 3-4 spots. All are still hungry and active but still flashing some on the plants and gravel.
I have read that it should take at least 2 weeks maybe more but when should I really notice a change? I thought I was over the hump a few days ago but now that they are back I am concerned again. Is it time to try a different approach or keep plugging away?
Thanks, Nate

[AlyeskaGirl]

You are doing good, just keep the temp up, do good gravel vacs every few days and if after 2 weeks you still see some spots it's ok to keep temp up for 2-3 days more. Be patient. You don't want to medicate because heat (no higher then 86) and salt doesn't kill your cycle as most meds will.

I was doing some reading on ICH and came across covering the tank up to make it dark because the parasites can't find the hosts in the dark. lol Then I read to get a really fine piece of filter padding to put in filter so it would trap the parasites in as they get sucked up. Thought that was interesting!

http://www.fishyportal.com/cgi-bin/p...=43&did=237122

[Nate McFin]

That is interesting regarding the light. AS far as th filter goes I have had a TON of filter floss in the back of HOB. It seems to be trapping a ton...not sure if there are parasites as I am afraid to look with a microscope. LOL

[Nate McFin]

I took some pics today of the fish and managed to get a couple that showed the problem. It is still present on 1/4 of the fish or so. Goes away comes back goes away comes back. =(
Anyway I thought these might help just in case.


So far so good with all still alive but still flashing and some twitching of fins that are affected. Note on te bottom pic you can se a spot on the nose (for lack of a better term lol) of the fish to the left of the one with circles. Also note that all the spots in the water are extra aeration bubbles not floaters...don't want anyone to think I have floaters. HEHE

[Nate McFin]

Well I woke up this morning to find my Cardinals covered in Ich again. They have had it for 18 days now total. So far no losses but this time 2 are really covered pretty heavy.
I tried heat and salt for the last 18 days. Started at 84 and left it for a week. No change. It would look better today as the Ich fell off into the gravel but it was back withing a day or two slightly worse than the last time. So I bumped the heat up to 86.5. It has been at 86.5 the last 11 days and same thing. Fall off, look better, then it comes back. Today , BAD! All are active though and eating.
SOOO...to my question. I am going to switch to Meds today after my (every other day) water change.
What Ich meds would you use for Cardinals. Tetras are sensitive to Malachite green so I dont really want to use it. I also know half doses should be used for Tetras in some cases. Too much reading has overloaded my senses and I don't know what to use! The Safer the better but I want it to work. This has been a tough road with these guys and gals next time I stick to pond snails...lol
Thanks!

[Shawnie]

im wondering have you vaccuumed the subtrate about every other day during those 18 days nate? as ich falls off, it can survive in the subtrate for some time...the stress from too high of temps , 84 is usually good, and less oxygen, could be some of the reason it keeps coming back....

im not a med person so ill have to let others help you with that..and as bad as it sounds now, meds are probably the only recourse.....I hope things look up sooooooooon!!

[navyscuba]

Well I would say keep temp High and as Shawnie said increase oxigen with a bubble wand or stone and if want to use meds I recommend Rid-Ich. I have to say Is going to stain the silicone in the tank with a slight blueish color. Good Luck.

[Nate McFin]

Yeah I have been cleaning the substrate as well Shawnie. I have also been running a UV during the day and Bubble wand at night. The Salt dosage was cut in half as Cardinals are sensitive to Salt as well. The temp doesn't seem to bother them at all. Natural temps for Cardinals is 82-84
I really hate to go with meds and I want to cure this thing by natural means. What to do what to do

[Shawnie]

if you have been doing all that, id say meds are needed....I just wish i knew more about meds to suggest something.... im sorry..as with most meds when used, watch your cycle.....

[Nate McFin]

Well I ended up going down to the LFS today. Turns out Rid Ich has Malachite green and Formalin (Formaldahyde) I Was afraid to even try due to the Malachite.
So I ended up buying Wardleys "Ick Out Sensitive" made for Tetras and other sensitive fish. It is a Formaldahyde based product as well though pretty diluted. I couldn't really find any reviews except from Petcos website where there were two ( both positive) I was hoping to find some info from a more reputable source but alas...
I am going to combine with the other treatments I have been doing and see what happens, though I dropped the temp down to 84 so they dont have oxygen probs. Another reason I didn't want to use the Malachite was because of the UV light. It can break down the Malachite green. (Same with Copper based)
I will report back and let everyone know how the Wardleys works!

[AlyeskaGirl]

I bought a bottle of Seachem Para Guard to have on hand incase ICH ever attacked my fish. The bottle says "fish and filter safe parasite control, A safe alternative to formalin, contains no toxic methanol."

"employs a proprietary, synergistic blend of aldehydes, malachite green and fish protective polymers that effectively and efficiently eradicates many ectoparasites (e.g. ich, etc.) and external fungal/bacterial/viral lesions (e.g. fin rot). http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/prod/198603/product.web

I'm sorry I didn't get back to you sooner.

[missgingersnap]

I used a similar product....jungle ick guard 2 for sensitive and scaleless fish. It has formalin in it though. I've been dosing every 24 hours with a water change and it's almost gone now. I have neons and they've come through it so far. Good luck!

[Nate McFin]

Ok...day 3 per instructions. Which were:50% water change between treatments and dosed meds as recommended. Repeat for 3 days. No more than 3 is recommended to prevent gill damage.
So I did that and here are of the results after the final water change- Spots on fish are much lighter but not gone by any means. I would say there are 20-25 spots TOTAL between all the fish. It is not recommended to treat again yet its still there. I am a little un sure what to do at this point. Any ideas? I have in the meantime went back to salt, cranked the heat back up, and started the UV again.
I am at a loss and kinda frustrated. No fish losses so far out of 14 Cardinals. All are eating well and have good color. (Except for the white spots!)
Should I give them a chance to not be in medicated water for a bit risking a return of the ich to full form or should I treat again immediately and see if I can wipe this thing out?
Thanks!
Nate and Fishy friends!
PS- ICH was first found on April first 3 weeks and 1 day ago.

[navyscuba]

Keep the heat at 83 or 84 and keep doing water changes and gravel vacuuming till gone and even if you don't see any on the fish keep the vac going for like 2 or 3 weeks the eggs will stay till one fish is in stress. Good Luck.

[Nate McFin]

Thanks NS!
I hope this works. Time seems to move so slowly in fish tank world. First the cycle takes forever and now it seems I have had this Ich for a million years. lol

[navyscuba]

I know it took me forever to get rid of the Ich too.

[Nate McFin]

UPDATE-
Well day 27 of the Ich problem is here. The spots have subsided some though there are still a few present. I have been very diligent with my water changes and doing daily 20%.
I still haven't had any losses though I had a bit of a scare with one fish who refused to eat and sat in a corner most of the day. He is now out swimming with the others.
I did end up cutting out the salt treatment once the spots began to stay subsided for more than a couple days. The fish are much more active since the salt has been removed.
I continued with use of the UV light 24 hours a day though I am not sure how much it helped.
Thanks for everyones help with the problem and I am ( as I said ) happy to report NO LOSSES!
I will continue to change the water and run the UV for the next few weeks to make sure things are still in tip top shape. Now...where to put that QT? LOL
Thanks again...you are all the best!

[navyscuba]

Hey that's good news. Is a tough battle against Ich but it's possible. Good Job.

[Fishies-for-me]

If you have more problems I recommend coppersafe if you do not have inverts. Personally it is the only ick med I will use. It works on ick , velvet and other parasites . It seems to be very easy on the fish and it stays in the water for a month ...no redosing...all you have to do is replace what you have removed with water changes. It does not stain anything in the tank either.

[aquarist48]

Thanks for the good news Nate.

[Nate McFin]

UPDATE-
Well, after a week of no visible signs the Ich had seemingly disappeared and is now back despite temps that had climbed to 87. I dropped the temp slowly down to 84 when the spots disappeared for a week and left it there as Cardinals live in 82-84 water in the wild. I thought "that should be the end of it"
Wrong after a few days of dropping the temp from 86.5 down to 84 its back.
GRRRRRRR...this is really becoming a pain now. My latest research is making me lean towards Coppersafe. I have been reading how to monitor the Copper levels during the treatment. The other thing I have been looking at is Kordons Ich attack. The "all natural" cure. 5% active and 95% inert. I dont like that it doesn't tell you exactly what it is.
I would love to treat without chemicals but this strain seems very hardy. 2 med treatments and getting close to a month and half with temps 84 and up. I am at my wits end with the problem. If I thought the fish could handle 88 degrees for awhile I would try that but it just seems to dangerous.
Anyway...back to the drawing board.

[joy1125]

Fishes-for-me (or anyone else who's used Coppersafe) >>>>> does Coppersafe destroy the biofilter?