prairielilly

My DG has had some 'constipation issues' for a few months now, about ever since I got the panda cories, which I attributed to his ravenous pursuit of the cories' bottom wafers. He usually has a string of poo coming from him. I've been watching him pretty closely to make sure it's not white or slimy, which it isn't. It's the same colour as the wafer. I just figured he's a little pig.

The whole tank got a course of Jungle's PC around end January - early February bc I was concerned the cherry barbs had 'black spot'. All's well on that front.

Took a real close look at my DG today...he has five or so threadlike red worms coming from his anus. He's the only fish showing that. Everyone else looks healthy and happy.

I've been reading everything I can find and I'm convinced it's camallanus worms. If I'm right, that means it's a safe bet that a) every tank's infected except the 5g, as I've been sharing tools between them, didn't know anything was wrong, b) pretty much what's required is the eventual tear-down/sterilization/re-starting of all my tanks, c) I need to treat all fish with Praziquantel.

I've read (some of) the stuff here regarding other's experiences, and some had luck with prazi-pro, some didn't. Prazi-Pro doesn't seem to be for sale here at least on the store websites I commonly check. I'm wondering if the levels of praziquantel and metronidazole in Jungle's PC would be effective at all? am I hyperventilating too much? bc I feel ready to have a bit of a fit...

agabr123

the only med i know of that has worked for camallanus worms is levamisole, i'll try and look for some more info for you regarding symptoms and how much to use

AlyeskaGirl

Oh I am so sorry.

http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/fish_dis...disorders.html

prairielilly

There's levamisole (and praziquantel) in Jungle's medicated food, I have that, I'll start with that asap if they'll eat it.

am I right that I have to tear down/restart my tanks? I JUST GOT THEM GOING AGAIN TWO MONTHS AGO!

How on earth did this happen!??

Lucy

I'm really sorry about you DG. It would be a really good idea to put him in QT. Hopefully it hasn't spread to your other fish.
If I recall levamisole isn't available In Canada.
Did you read this thread? Maybe you'll find some info that can help:
My experience with Camallanus worms

Good luck, I hope you can beat this.

agabr123

poor little guy

i'm going to look for some more links, i can't seem to find the ones that i've used before, but i'll keep looking

prairielilly

I did read that. It says (or another did) that it's hyper-transmissable and if one has it they all do, it takes months to actually see the worms so they could have it internally. Some ppl have had luck with prazi pro some not. There's levamisole in the medicated food.

my God I'm having a crying fit...I set up a tank and watch all my fish die bc I don't know about cycling. Then I re-set up the tank and watch all my fish die due to disease. Then I learn from other folks who are so nice and help me out, I get a clue, I re-set up my tank...and now I'm going to lose them all? the time, the expense, the emotional investment, these are my PETS...my gosh the DG probably came with them right from petsmart.

ok. I'll get it together in a second here...

Lucy

prairielilly

thx Lucy

amazing what a purring kitten can do too.

Dirty, rotten LFS! Wonder if I'll ever be able to buy a healthy fish! Sorry first I cry, then I get good and mad, then I'll actually be able to do something.

So I've never seen Clout or Prazi Pro for sale here. I see Maracide and Coppersafe, those won't help. I see Jungle tabs and medicated food. I have those so I'll try those and see if there's an improvement. Got to stop overreacting that will likely help the most. DG the only fish showing worms so if the food helps then hopefully that will do it. Just don't have any idea when to redose, do I have to tear down, what? Lot of learning to do.

prairielilly

All tanks got some Jungle tabs and medicated food tonight. They're eating it, at least trying too - a lot of bit and spit going on.

It appears that praziquantel/metronidazole will either a) not work; b) work by paralyzing the worms allowing the fish to excrete them, at which time they are eaten by the fish and the cycle starts all over again. These are said to work provided no fish re-eats expelled worms. How to make sure that happens ---?

I found a really good link that says the dog dewormer fenbendazole (Panacur) which is available from vets (in Canada too, thank goodness!) has been used with success, and kills the worms, eggs and larvae. I'm going to call my vet tomorrow and see if I can get some of that - don't know seeing as I don't have a dog, and it's not an OTC thing...maybe there's a fenbendazole for cats? and I could get it even though my cats are fine? and it will be water soluble and safe for fish?

http://www.petfish.net/kb/entry/154/
http://www.plecofanatics.com/article...ntry.php?e=337
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums...d.php?t=145970

cerianthus

Any pics?
Although possible, roundworms are usually host-specific. Seen but not too many occassion, on livebearers. Never experienced on Anabantoids.

If fish are eating med. food, why not just continue with such.

I can not say wether it is or not.
If infestation is bad, fish may show some sort of changes in behavior/coloration.

If and when able to obtain levamisole, it wont be effective (deactivated) when pH is high. If memory serves, CERTAIN COMPOUNDS (meds) ARE pH SENSITIVE/DEPENDENT and levamisole is such.
Levamisole HCl will work better in any pH.

prairielilly

They are eating the medicated food, which contains levamisole as I said. I will continue with it although I have found many links that state it doesn't work due to the worms having developed resistance to most meds.

I cannot get a picture of this, the worms are finer than a hair and extremely difficult to see even if I could get the fish to sit still.

cerianthus

If your med food has levamisole, it should work, that is if roundworm, Camallanus. I doubt other ingredients in med food will work against roundworm such as Camallanus and I doubt if Camallanus were exposed to a point building resistance to levamisole. It wasnt until recently I learned frequent encounters with this roundworm.
This worms was not really frequent problem as far as I can remember.
If finer than hair, it may not be Camallanus since I was able to see with naked eye/under micsroscope that either as thick as hair or bit thicker..
Besides, in bad case, fish should show some other simptoms such as emaciation, unthriftiness , etc.

If and when levamisole is obtained, it can be directly put into water as it can be absorbed thru skin. Although never used levamisole (unavail), Used to use Piperazine Citrate (Pipzine by Aquatronics but Aquatronics abandoned fish med altogether recently; made very sprecific med for most of fish diseases,imo) mixed with food and found very effective when and only if fish ingested.

prairielilly

I've done enough reading now to think that *maybe* it's just a common worm and not the camallanus worms....wish there was a way to know for sure. The worms are extremely thin, hairlike and straight, and a dark red colour, whereas all the pictures I find for camallanus are thick, bright red and ...curly? it's described as 'looking like a pompom' which this doesn't. If it's NOT, wow that would be great...

So today is day 2 of treatment with Jungles' Parasite Clear and the medicated food. No changes yet, the DG looks the same. Everyone seems to be tolerating the meds really well though. The food is tough for them as the pellets are a little too big for all the fish and are extremely hard. I've been crushing them up and soaking them in tank water for 15 min or so, that seems to help, but with the exception of the DG I'm not sure how much is actually getting inside the fish. The betta doesn't seem to mind, to him a pellet is a pellet. I've been adding one Hikari wafer to the main tank per day (breaking the med's instructions!) as the cories don't seem to know what to do with the pellets and it was the first time I'd seen them truly beg for food...I felt really bad for them. The DG punts the pellets around the tank with his snout, sort of like a dolphin with a beach ball, which would be really cute - if it was for another reason

The only real thing that seems to have changed is that I've got one of those pellets somewhere in my filter and can't get it out, and the motor is sounding like a buzz saw.

Not sure what to do if this treatment doesn't improve things? thinking I'd isolate the DG say in the 5g as he's the only one where I can see the worms, and consider the rest of them ok until shown otherwise?

cerianthus

As long as fish are eating/behaving/swimming/acting/coloring NORMALLY, would not further treat w/ med. It is your decision since you can render better judgement but sometimes just monitoring fish/fishes until more obvious symptoms/changes are visible would be better for fish rather than doping/intoxicating (lol) them unnecessarily.
Just provide optimal conditions for them and SIT BACK and ENJOY!

cerianthus

Have you ever thought yours might be a female getting ready? Any pics?
Things are coming back very slowly, LOL!

prairielilly

cerianthus: all is normal EXCEPT the dwarf gourami nearly always has a long string of poo attached to him, he eats insatiably and he has several short, straight, very fine dark red hairlike protrusions coming from his vent (which are far too thin to show up on a picture unfortunately, they are very difficult to see at all unless he happens to hold still for a few seconds against a pale background which is pretty rare). These things, to me, are NOT normal, and that is why I am treating them. Unfortunately nothing has changed so far with the meds, however they are not done yet. Everything I have read about red threadlike things coming from the anus, increased appetite and strings of poo attached to the fish all point to intestinal parasites, which is why I decided to treat for internal parasites. If I am wrong with this please tell me then what it is?

Red1313

Sounds like some sort of parasite to me but I haven't found anything in my books yet...
Do the strings seem to be growing or anything like that?

prairielilly

Nope. Wish I even knew how long they'd been there they are so little. I only noticed them because I was taking a really good look at Gabriel the other day (my DG) and noticed his vent looked a little inflamed, and he always always had a big string of poo, and then he swam so there wasn't anything behind him but gravel (it's creamy white) and I saw these little spiky red things about 5 mm long and freaked out. Calmer now but I really wish I'd see some effects from the Jungle tabs and food like say them being gone? Second dose went in tonight. I can't find anything else written about what it could be, doesn't match descriptions of flukes or lice or anything, and his condition is pretty good except for how much he eats he should likely be four times his present size. All the rest of the fish look and act fine but I read it's really really contagious so I thought better safe than sorry.

cerianthus

I wish I knew! lol! But my reasonings are as follow:
If infestations is that bad, be it tapeworms or whatever, fish should show some sort of chages in behavior (other than eating), general body thinness (all the nutrients absorbed by worms).
Complete the treatment with PC or med food to see if improvements are shown. But from what I could remember, all these topical admistration of parasitic med (not the med food) would not be effective just being in water since metro and panten whatever can not be absrobed thru skin as levamisole would.

Thus my suggestion would be just monitor once med is done.
Reason for pic (side view) was to see if I can help determining gender.
I dont know what kind of DG you have but if memory serves, all these colorful DG (cobalt blue, powder blue, Red flame, etc) are man made color morphs thru selective breeding or genetically altered from Colisa lalia . Its been so long I dont remember which nor do I have any Mag w/ such articles from 20+ yrs ago.
Just poped out my head w/ thought that yours might be female getting ready!

prairielilly

The instructions for the Jungle tabs specifically state to put them into the water, and I have used them before with success.

Pictures of my DG (Colisa lalia) are included in the thread linked in my signature - he was healthy and in a 5g at that time. They include a side view.

cerianthus

PC will work against external parasites but not internal unless ingested proper amt.
will check the photo.

EDIT: well, check the photo. This one is probably He.
Whatever he maybe suffering from, hope he gets better soon!
What kind of cat is that grey color one? Both are cute! I miss dogs and cats. Havent had any pets other than fish since children are somewhat allergic to
them even though childrens adores them & MY BIG BOSS said NO. LOL!

Fishies-for-me

It sounds like c worms to me. I would qt the gourami and treat him and the tank with jungle labs medicated food. I had guppies and used that one them and cured them. I did find him within a few days of getting him tho and took him out of the tank immediately. My theory is that the younger worms are more sensitive to the meds . That is why I recommend removing him. Then it may be easier to kill any larva worms in the main tank. Yes these worms are super contagious and can transfer on a little as a wet hand going from one tank to the other. Good luck.

prairielilly

As of this morning there is still no discernable difference in the condition of any or all fish. They have been on the medicated food for some days now and will get the last of 3 doses of Jungle PC tonight. The DG is now pooping dark red and hiding a lot and I'm pretty concerned about that.

Today I called my cat's vet regarding fenbendazole (dewormer for dogs said to be effective for camallanus worms in fish). They don't carry it and referred me to another clinic, who told me they prescribe it and would only do so for a dog and only for a dog they had seen, they then referred me to yet another clinic, who has a vet who 'dabbles' in fish medicine, who is unavailable until tomorrow afternoon but at that time may call me back and MAY be able to help me out....

I am nearly done sterilizing the 5g (it was a cherry barb hospital - that role is now taken by the 10g, which got instantly cycled when I put the 5g's filter on it). The box filters for the 5g and the 3g are in the 5g as is a ton of ammonia, and as soon as I'm satisfied they have an effective biofilter (there's seeded media in there too) I plan on moving the DG to the 5g. He is still the only fish exhibiting any signs of anything wrong, and contagious or no until the other ones look or act sick I don't want to give them any more meds unless necessary.

This morning my 20g's filter was loud enough to be heard outside (no, I'm not exaggerating) and when I shut it off to examine it yet again I discovered the light fixture is also buzzing almost as loudly. Looked into that enough to find that 1) it's likely the ballast, and 2) the ballast on this particular model can't be removed and I have to replace the light if not the entire hood. All part of the same 20g starter kit that is less than 6 months old - I called the place that sold it to me the last time there was an issue and their response was to try to sell me something else

Wonderful day in fishie land for me

Lucy

You've had such a time of it. The last thing you need is light/filter problems.

I hope the clinic can give you some answers and whatever med is necessary to kick this.

prairielilly

Thx Lucy

You know, without the help and support of Fishlore's wonderful members, I'm pretty sure all my fish stuff would likely have been dried up and packed away by now.

It's not so much that this latest series of events is so overwhelmingly bad...it's more so that it's the third time similar events have happened in less than six months.

Two of three times though my issues have stemmed from the spread of disease brought in by one fish - and in each of those cases the fish was bought at the same store (in this recent case, fish was QT'd - for a MONTH). Said store lost my business for live stock a very long time ago, but I'm still looking for that magic LFS that either sells healthy fish (gasp!) or at least fish that are only sick with something I can actually CURE!

prairielilly

How To Get Rid Of Camallanus/nematode Worms

OK, so this is AWESOME.

I think I actually found this one when I was originally doing research but since I was hyperventilating a teeny bit over the idea of losing every single fish and tearing down four tanks to start from scratch...well, I didn't read it too carefully. I didn't find the link mentioned to actually buy the meds (found it later) so I emailed the author, who replied an hour later! I can order enough to treat 100g of water for $14!! (US or CAD, yet tbd). I'm a little tiny bit uneasy about ordering medicines from a stranger over the internet...is that odd? but it promises to kill all the nasty buggers! and their eggs and larvae and not destroy my little aquatic world and let my fishie babies live!

I know cerianthus mentioned levamisole hcl in this thread too. I discounted that at the time bc I knew of no way to obtain the stuff in Canada (there's a lot of that troublem...)

BTW the links in this thread contain pictures of fish infected with camallanus worms that are better than anything I could get - and they look exactly like my DG So at least I know exactly what the problem is now. Not sure if that's good or bad news though....

prairielilly

...twofold part of this post is to get this down somewhere before I forget everything...

I've just been speaking with a local veterinarian. She has expressly warned me against ordering the Levamisole HCl online as she disagrees with the dosage and has concerns regarding its purity. That said:

- both Levamisole HCl and Fenbendazole are prescription meds which she can't prescribe unless there's a doctor-patient relationship ie. I'm a client at her clinic
- the Levamisole will NOT kill larval worms
-it is also entirely possible to spread this parasite via 'copepods' which apparently includes all shrimps and other worms including bloodworms, despite how reputable manufacturers of freeze-dried products might be
-she wants me to bring in a fecal sample from my dwarf gourami which they will analyze to establish the doctor-patient relationship (I should have asked what that will cost me, hmmm. Collecting the sample, wow that sounds like fun)
-she is going to do some more research and call me back as she hasn't got specific stuff on camallanus (not surprising, she sees cats and dogs)
-I asked: this worm is host specific. As in it's no threat to me or to my kitty cats (-:

More to follow when I know some more?

Lucy

Thanks for all this info Marsha. As said before, I sure hope this all works out for the best for you and your fish.
If anything, your post contains valuable information that will help others in their search for a treatment.
If a fecal analysis is anything like a dog or cat, I don't think they're that expensive.
btw, what were you feeding your dg and what brand?

I wonder if the vet will come upon this thread in her research. lol

prairielilly

Hmmm, expensive...my cat's dental last year was $900 (I was expecting a third of that). We'll see

The DG (and all the other fish except the betta) were getting

Tetra tropical flakes
Tetra tropical granules The Rich Mix
Freeze dried bloodworms (can't remember the brand, will have to look)
Hikari dried shrimp (BBS?)
Hikari bottom feeder wafers (those were supposed to just be for the pandas)
Nutrafin spirulina flakes

...that might be it? lots of variety...

The betta got Wardley betta pellets + the shrimp + some bloodworms

I really hope she calls me back today yet. If not maybe I'll get to talk tomorrow when I (hopefully) take in a sample of fish poo!

Edit: the bloodworms are Omega One, and that was indeed all the fish food.