DSwofford

Ok, hopefully someone on here can give some insight because everyone at my LFS is baffled.

I have a 125 gallon freshwater tank, filtered via two emperor 4oo's. My water is about 60 days old and was cycled without fish. I added start rite and a container of bacteria by Top Fin.

After my water cycled I started with 3 tiger barbs and 3 silver dollars. After 10 days passed my water parameters were still in the normal range and I added a pleco (no algae problems, I just like plecos) After 14 days passed my water parameters were still in the normal range and I added 3 more tiger barbs and 3 more silver dollars. (all fish came from the same store, except the pleco).

Two days after I added the last batch of dollars and barbs they all came down with ICH (except the pleco). I treated the tank with "rid-ich" per the label and did a 25% water change at the end of treatment. 3 tigers died during treatment. The day after the treatment the remaining 3 tigers died within 20 hours, followed by 2 silver dollars. 24 hours later all the silver dollars lost all of their fins and died. (Their fins were fine and literally disintegrated within 24 hours). All fish were dead except the pleco which was carrying on as business as usual.

LFS said I most likely had a virus in my water or some "unknown" parasite and the ich and "fin rot" ( I have fin rot in quotations since I have never seen fin rot take off fins in less than 24 hours) as they called it were secondary infections.

Pleco is still in tank and doing fine. I bumped my temp to 90 degrees and let it sit for 14 days, during which I performed 2 25% water changes (once at the start and once at the end). Tested my water myself and all was fine. Took a water sample to my LFS for second opinion and indeed, my water was well within acceptable parameters. My lone Pleco "Trooper" as I have come to call him (since he has been such a trooper in all of this) is looking pretty lonely in the tank by himself so I purchase 2 pictus cats on 2/27/09. Monday 3/2/09 the pictus show signs of ich. I set up a 10 gallon hospital tank using the same water from my 125 gallon tank. I bring it up to the exact temperature as my large tank and transport them to the hospital tank. I give them half the recommended dose of rid-ich. This was at 3:00 in the afternoon, by 11:00pm one of the cats was laying on the bottom and his gills were going a mile a minute (temperature was 75 degrees and had plenty of air in the tank) He was dead by 2:00am. By 8:00am Tuesday the second cat had dropped to the bottom and was also rapidly moving his gills. He died at noon today. Neither of them had white spots on their body anymore.

Trooper the pleco is still alive and shows no signs of infection.

LFS said must be the same virus or "unknown" parasite in your tank. I have a problem with this and really want to call BS on it but I would like some of your ideas and opinions on this.

Any insight??

Thanks in advance.

Amanda

What were your water parameters during treatment?
Ich cures are known to kill your cycle.

CHoffman

Hi and Welcome to Fishlore!! SO sorry your having problems...It sounds like to me what happened was everything was going fine but you didn't QT you last batch and they might of brought in the Ick..84 degrees is suffiecient for treating ick...90 degrees IMO is way to high...The higher the temp the less oxgen in the water. Do you have a air pump or anything to help with that...When you added the ICH meds, it probably crashed your cycle....and losing fins and dealth could be caused by ammonia poisioning caused by the crashed cycle..That would be my guess...For know..Turn your heater down to 84 degrees, leave it there for two weeks, do frequent gravel vacs to get all the ICH spores out and then when getting new fish Quarintine. I hope these problems end soon for you so you can enjoy your nice big tank.

DSwofford

From what I remember (sorry can't find my log, my 16 month old has done something with it)
pH was in the 7.2 range
ammonia was in the 0 PPM range
nitrite was in the .25 ppm range
nitrate was in the 0 ppm range

Toxic

Sounds like ammonia posioning, what are your water parameters. Tank may not have been cycled or it was crashed by the meds.

DSwofford

I know 90 degrees is high but I have seen so many variances on what temp Ich can't reproduce at. 84-88 degrees so I set it at 90 (don't worry pleco is not in tank).

Amanda

If nitrate was at 0 - the tank either didn't cycle or your cycle crashed.
That would explain the deaths & fin loss.

Toxic

should have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and 10 to 20 nitrates, nitrates are a sign that the tank is cycled. I would do 50% water changes daily with prime until the nitrates come up and the ammonia and nitrites test at 0


Edit: Amanda beat me to it

tomchitown

[quote=DSwofford;541148]From what I remember (sorry can't find my log, my 16 month old has done something with it)
PH was in the 7.2 range
ammonia was in the 0 ppm range
nitrite was in the .25 ppm range
nitrate was in the 0 ppm range[

your nitrIte should be 0
and unless you have live plants in there you should have some nitrAte reading
5-10ppm

she beat me too ...lol

AlyeskaGirl

I am so so sorry for your loss!

DSwofford

Let me find my log book and get actual readings. BTW I have live plants (3 bamboo plants) in the aquarium.

Amanda

Bamboo plants are actually bog plants. The roots can be in the water, but the leaves must be above the water for them to survive.

catfishlover123

I'm sorry for your loss! That's a lot of fish.

DSwofford

Nice. LFS said they could be totally submerged. I have had them in there for over a month and they look as healthy as the day I bought them. When can I expect them to die? I am getting used to all the death in my tank.

Amanda

They'll last a few months in the tank before they begin to break down.
Some people somehow attach them to the tops of their tanks so that the roots hang down but the leaves are above water. That way the roots will feed on the nitrates in the water, but it will thrive.

FishCreek

Sounds like the meds killed the cycle and then everything died as a result of ammonia poisoning. Do you check your own water parameters or rely on the LFS? Best to get your own Liquid test kit if possible (if you don't already). Also did you raise the temp up gradually? Best if done slowly so fish get used to it. 90 is way too high though. Sorry for your problems. If you don't want to do something else with the bamboo ( Its really a type of dracena), take it back to the LFS cause they told a lie.

agabr123

i'm sorry you lost your fish everyone else has you covered on the possible problems, good luck getting everything back in order!

Shawnie

welcome to fishlore!!

IMO the issue was what you used to seed the tank..the top fin and start right do not contain a self sustaining bacteria the only one existing for now is tetra safe start which is formerly bio spira...and then the meds probably finished it off ...as long as you continued to use the product, the cycle would be fine...although a pain in the bum, using prime or stress coat + with daily water changes will get you through the rest of the cycle...unless you purchase some safestart, thats about the only way to finish up the cycle..it will be done when you have 0 ammonia and nitrites and under 20 nitrates...goodluck!

cerianthus

Unless DS confirm that NH3, NO2, increased after whenever he added batch of fish, I cant say wether system crashed or went thru mini cycle. 125 G with so few fish to
cause masssive peak seems highly unlikely unless really overfed.
Angels Cats and Silver $ are very prone/more prone than big scaled fish and very sensitive to most Ick medications i've encountered. At this point keep the tank at around 84-86 for week then GRADUALLY decrease to desired temp and run as is for another week or two before tempting adding more fish.
How many heaters are in 125? Is the temp stablized at specific (set) temp all the time?
If there are fluctuation sof temp, may want to consider adding more or proper sized Heaters (usually 5W/Gal but depends on your lowest room temp).
Although 2 Emperor 400 may be sufficient for 125 G by Mfgr's recommendations, would increase the flow/circulation w/ canister filter or PH w/ Cartridges ( must since fish can sucked up on strong PH, Hagen make PH 802 (dont know the new model # and Quick Filter which can be attched to its Powerheads (PH) so will create more movement of water and some extra mechnical filtration. Check Drsfs.

As far as No nitrate registering, possible w/ cycled tank with so few addtion of fish which unfortunatly did not make themselves at home.
I've seen worse than what you described where fish drop like flys due to many reasons including unknowns. Unkown paraasite and etc, possible but agree w/you as BS.

Unfortunate but happens.I am glad at least you logged all the event/datas which will be very helpful once posted.
Another good idea to prevent , although not 100%, is to quarantine new arrival. YEs, more work but possibly less loss and less frustrations?
Never tried Bamboo completely submerged but have done well having just the roots submerged. I would recommend to remove also but it is up to you since have seen old timer's (no dispect since from whom I gained irreplacable knowledges) tank w/ Sanderiana fully submerged and kept for pretty long time. No, I have not personally tried Sandy.
Hope this helped and all goes well from now on.
btw, post when find the log and I am sure you already took precautionary measures, becareful with products used for tank around 16 month old.

DSwofford

ok found my log.
ph was 7.6
ammonia was 0ppm
nitrite was 0 ppm
nitrate was between 2.5 and 5.0 ppm

retested today and all is the same except nitrate is a little closer to 5.0 ppm

Sorry about the previous mistake I was shooting from the hip, I still get nitrite and nitrate confused.

DSwofford

Right now I am using two to maintain the 90 degree temp. Normally I have one 300watt that keeps it at 79 degrees.
Yes all my stands are child proofed. He is something else at 16 months, he is 32" tall and weighs 30 lbs. Although he gets scolded he thinks it is funny to smack the tank where the pleco is attached.

Lucy

Wow, really sorry about the death of your fish, that's pretty rough.
The only thing I haven't seen asked is did you increase the aeration to make up for the less oxygen in the warmer water?

DSwofford

My pleco went through the first temp increase but currently I have no fish in the tank. However I have a 48" bubble wand for aeration.

cerianthus

Out of curiosity, Is there reasons for high pH? Although some fish can ajust to wide range of pH, wondering if this may be the reasons for all the troubles you experienced. I mean it is stressful enough to go from lfs to your tank but if way different pH at lfs, i'd assume couple of hours of aclimating is not enough for fish to ajust to such big difference. Silver $ and Angel cats, pleco are originally out of slightly acidic water. As you saw, pleco seemed to adapted well to such pH, that does not mean others adapt as well. Barb on the other hand, found them to do better in slighly alkaline water than where they are found.
Check lfs water's pH to see how they keep their fish before adding more.
I am wondering either your tap is alkaline or something in the tank is causing pH to go up, such as shell, calcarous rocks, for example.
Any pics of tank/deco?

DSwofford

Not sure why my PH is so high, it has always been high. To back track some more, I had this tank set up last year with the following: 2 plecos, 1 red tailed shark, 4 tiger barbs and 2 gourami. They all did great until I lost power for a week last winter and they all died.

http://s107.photobucket.com/albums/m...urrent=aq1.jpg


http://s107.photobucket.com/albums/m...urrent=aq2.jpg

http://s107.photobucket.com/albums/m...urrent=aq3.jpg

CHoffman

Hey..Just noticed your from the KC area..I'm not too terribly far from you..I'm in Kansas, I think you might be the only other person I've seen come even close to Kansas on here..lol...My PH is high too..7.8 or so...All my fish have done fine in it, exception of some angels, but the LFS lost all theres too so I'm thinking it wasn't my tank and had nothing to do with PH. What kind of rock do you have in there...It might be making the PH higher if it's limestone or texas holey rock.

cerianthus

It may be the rocks looking at the pics. Simple way to find out is run pH test on tap water or bottled water. If results are close to neutral, add some scraping of the rock to see if color changes to alkaine side. If it does, maybe it is the rock(s) which may be causing high pH.
Even if it is, keep the rock as you can use them to buffer from time to time when and if pH drops.
Wether pH does cause a problem to fish or not , it really does cause problem to fish when exposed to extreme. Their adaptability depends on indivisual fish just like my skins are somewhat semsitive to saltwater than others (maybe not just salt but high pH that my sin is snsitive to). Because one has done it does not mean you will have same success. I bet no one will try to go extreme on few thousand dollar fish so what's the difference, price tag? No fish are fish, they deserve proper care regardless of its price tag, IMO.
Idea is to try accomodate their needs as best as possible.
In case lfs keep the fishes as high as yours, then I 'll assume you can do so but if their pH is lowered than yours (neutral or acidic), how about trying to keep at similar pH to avoid such mishap.
I have kept many different fish at different range even extremes, other than recommended w/ some success/failures thus came to conclusion that it is best to accomodate to their needs as best as we can.

DSwofford

ok, never thought about PH levels out of the tap so I took your advice and tested straight out of the tap. My readings were off the chart. I would guess them to be in the 8+ range.
I called my buddy that lives two towns over from me (different water districts and about 30 miles apart) and he said he has high PH in his water too. I am assuming LFS has same PH for two reasons:
1. Same water district
2. They tested my water for a ton of stuff including PH and said everything was at an acceptable level.

I agree totally with what you are saying. I don't care if a fish cost $100 or $1 I want it to live a long happy life, I don't enjoy my tank of death, I would much rather have a tank where all my fish will flourish.

Any other ideas as to what is going on with my tank

cerianthus

OK, so it was simple tap water.
then check the lfs water or simply ask if they keep different pH for different tank/fish. They may TREAT (RO/DIFilter or additives) their water if in centralized system cuz I can NOT see any lfs keeping all the fish at such alkaline water, it wont hurt to ask.

Other than pH issue. cant comment on anything else other than possible disturbances in 125 (no fish if I remember correctly at this moment) thus checking NH3, NO2 every few days and log w/ date thus when you are ready for next batch of fish, less chance of going thru frustrations.
Another thing with acclimation, I used to drip tank water into bucket/cat litter pan (make sure fish cant jump out). Take water and fish into bucket/pan (provided lfs & your pH is somewhat close), attach airline tubing to your tank (hold it down with hood), tie the loose knot, suck to prime. Can tighten or loosen the knot to control water flow. This is drip method, should remove water as water level gets higer in the bucket/pan. If the pH is similar,( although other factors are involved but lets hope lfs water has no NH3, NO2 but can test before acclimating. Level can be higher than what it is since fish were in bag excreting). shorter time to acclimate. If big differences in pH, then longer time to acclimate. Addtion of gentle aeration (coarse bubble) in long acclimation is recommended.
In case worried about temp dropping during acclimation (sudden temp drop in temp can trigger the hatching of dormant parasite; from old school,lol) thus can have bucket sit in larger container with slightly warmer water than tank water.
I hope I did not make it more complicated, just trying to assist in any way I can.
Hope it is smooth sailing from now on for you and your fish.

DSwofford

Thanks, I appreciate all of your input and knowledge. I stopped by the LFS I got my fish from shortly after they opened this morning and they had a bunch of deads in their tanks so I'm wondering if maybe the problem is on their end. I'm going to try my next batch of fish from another LFS (they're slightly higher priced, but maybe their fish will be better quality).