prairielilly

Hi,

Although I've learned a lot in the last few months I'm still relatively new at this, and I was hoping to please borrow the brains of those who know substantially more about this than me: I'd like to find out how long parasites can live in an aquarium without fish, or if taking the whole thing apart and drying it and leaving it for a spell will be enough to finally get rid of all parasites.

Without telling a very, very long story: I got a 20g about 10 weeks ago and didn't know about cycling yet and added 11 fish the next day, then spent the next week watching them die . I did some research and learned a lot, and started doing frequent partial WCs to try to decrease the ammonia and save the remaining fish while the tank cycled. I ended up with 2 when it was done. I added some more fish, a few each week, and soon had 9 fish in my tank (2 platy, 1 molly, 4 harlequin rasbora and 2 cherry barbs, all small and juvenile) and didn't really know if it was overstocked or not as some resources told me 'one inch per gallon' while others said 'each tank is different'. I asked that at another forum and was advised to add at least six more fish! I did add another molly and four more barbs. All was well for about a week (twice weekly 30% WCs, all water parameters good) and then the second molly suddenly died. Then the rest started getting sick - white stringy poo, flashing, lethargy, not eating, but no visible parasites on them. I started giving them lots of meds, for bacteria and fungus and parasites all at once - and well they almost all died. Nine dead fish. So I stopped all meds and just gave the remaining fish good clean water hoping that would do it. That was about two weeks ago - what I now have is two fish in my 20 g (molly and platy). The molly is 'indestructible' - I've had him since day one and he's never gotten sick at all not even when the tank was cycling. The platy is flashing and rubbing and has red inflamed gills and hides all the time (likely bc he's the only platy as well as being sick poor thing??) No other visible signs but I've seen this far too many times in the last few weeks. No matter what I did for the rest they lived about four days from this point getting weaker and weaker til they died - the other platy died this morning. Because there were no visible signs of parasites except the inflamed gills and rubbing and flashing, I've been treating the tank for gill flukes over the last week and there's NO improvement. This tank has been treated with salt, copper, formalin, praziquantel, pimafix and melafix (the praziquantel recently, the rest were all at once and yes I've since realized how stupid that was). I've read posts here that say gill flukes are nearly impossible to completely get rid of. So seeing as I am VERY frustrated with it all and ready to GIVE UP and don't really want to put even more money into a fruitless cause, I came to a rather drastic conclusion that maybe I should empty the tank and dry it out, then re-cycle it (fishlessly!!) and start from scratch. I never QT'd any fish before and boy did I learn my lesson. I currently have a dwarf gourami in my 5 g (I wanted him in the 20, but obviously not right now...)

Stats: 20 gallon tank, Marineland HOB filter, 100 W heater set for 78 F, airstone, bogwood, lots of plastic plants and polished pebbles. Ammonia, nitrite consistantly at zero for past six weeks (cycled in 4 weeks), nitrate usually around 5 depending on when I did a WC. 25-30% water changes 1-2X per week, vacuum gravel once a week. I use Aquaclear for chorine/choramine, a bit of Stress Coat and aquarium salt at 1 tbsp/5 g. I did find I was overfeeding for a bit and now I've got a lot of mucous-y white stuff (sort of looks like algae) that other forum posts tell me is possibly fungus, working on getting rid of that with lots of vacuuming. Only a very small amount of actual algae. We have hard water here but the pH is neutral. I'm attaching a pic - it's a little outdated, I since removed the orange/red plant (impossible to keep it clean, but the fish loved to hide in it) and put in another piece of bogwood.

I know beginners make a lot of mistakes and everybody goes through bad times but this is a whole pile of bad luck -- rather than throw in the towel at this point (can't really do that now that I've sort of started this 'multiple tank syndrome' thing - I've got 3) I though I'd just start this one over. If that's too drastic, can anyone please advise??

In a perfect world where my 20 g is parasite- and infection-free, I'd have the dwarf gourami and 8 cherry barbs and they'd all be healthy and I'd call it a day and just get to ENJOY THE FISH TANK instead of it being a constant source of stress! When I originally got the molly and platy they were in groups - the rest didn't make it and I'm not very enthusiastic about replacing them (possibly due to frustration....)

Any advice would be so much appreciated!

Attached Images

20 g tank Dec 7:08.JPG (394.7 KB, 37 views)

soldieroffortune1974

Welcome to Fishlore........glad to see you made it here,and now we can help you fix the problem.Sorry your 1st post is based on so much bad luck,but we will correct that. Welcome,welcome,welcome.

Instead of ripping everything apart and starting over,let's do the next best thing. Re-cycling the existing set-up with ammonia.(assuming ALL fish are no longer in aquarium)

1st read the article about cycling fishless with ammonia. If you've already read it,use it for reference,because I am going to change it up a bit for you in this case.

Now,with that info in mind,we will re-cycle by adding 10ppm ammonia to the aquarium. It will kill off all the eggs,larvae,adult parasites and protozoa,fungus,etc. We will keep the level at 10 PPM for 2 or 3 days (regardless of what your readings are) to disinfect and kill any organisms present (except the beneficial bacteria) On the third day you can allow the ammonia levels to start dropping off. Now you can follow the remaining instructions for the fishless cycle,and be confident everything was just nuked and you're starting over.

You CANNOT do this with ANY fish in the aquarium.You probably knew that,but I needed to say it.Any more questions we're here to make it a happy experience for you. I personally would hate to see you give up.

Welcome

prairielilly

Well that's so very very nice to be welcomed like that especially when I've been so frustrated! Thanks for that!

I will read the article (soon - it's one in the morning atm). I cycled my 5g and 3g with regular ammonia, but a refresher can't exactly be a bad thing.

The tank IS currently cycled - so if there's no fish, don't I just need to add enough ammonia to keep the biofilter alive? or is the extra ammonia to get rid of all the nasties? and if I do this there's ZERO chance that a month or so from now when all's supposedly well again and my pretty little gourami is in the 20 g that he'll start flicking (because of this, not something new, that'll be the cleanest tank in the city??)

Do you agree this was gill flukes? bc that was pretty darn frustrating (and SAD - poor things)

Thanks for the help (:

agabr123

Keep in mind that the one inch per gallon rule means the size of the fish at adulthood. When they say that each tank is different, they mean first that you have to take into account aggression. Sometimes a two or three inch fish may need five or ten gallons of their own territory to prevent them from attacking tank mates. Also, a 14 inch fish won't be happy with a 20 gallon tank by himself, even though it fits the rule (sadly, I've seen this before....).

If you can, I would definitely suggest quarantining any new fish that you buy for at least two weeks before adding to your tank.

It would probably be easier to remove the algae by scrubbing rather than vacuuming.

Finally, as far as medications go, some people say that they would rather do something than nothing. But personally I have to say that unless you are 100% sure (or at least 95) of what your fish has and you have the precise medication to treat it, sometimes medications can do more harm than good.

The extra ammonia in this case is to kill any parasites you may have in the tank.

Certainly don't give up. Most of the people on this site have started out much the same way as you have. It may seem like you'll never be able to sit down and enjoy your tank, but I promise the day will come! (But by then you'll probably be enjoying six or seven tanks, one is never enough!)

soldieroffortune1974

The ammonia level of 10ppm is to kill all the nasties in the water,substrate,filter,decor,etc. You do this and there is ZERO chance ANYTHING will survive to cause you future problems (from this incident) The ammonia will not harm the cycle in any way,but it will greatly increase the amount of beneficial bacteria.After the ammonia drops to 00ppm and nitrites 00ppm and nitrates (any level) You will have to do a large water change because the nitrates will be off the charts.(Nitrates are lethal above 20ppm)

Do you agree this was gill flukes? bc that was pretty darn frustrating (and SAD - poor things)


It would be hard to agree it was gill flukes without knowing the water parameters numbers.It's a safe assumption it was internal parasites,but I couldn't say it was defintiely gill flukes.

prairielilly

Yes, I agree - I tried to only put small fish together that were peaceful. The problems started when I realized that a) mollies and platies were bigger adults than I first thought; and b) most of the fish I wanted to keep prefer to be in shoals. I know better now, that's why I want 8 cherry barbs in the future - I really liked the cherry barbs, and if I have only 6 of them plus my gourami there's not really enough fish-inches left for a shoal of anything else. I'm planning on either 2 males/6 females or 3 m/5 f.

When I originally set up the 20 g I didn't have a QT tank. Then I got the 5 g for a betta, then decided to get a 3 g for a betta. The 5 g is now my QT tank for the moment - it's keeping the gourami who so far is doing great. I'm thinking of 'fixing' the 20 g and then adding a few barbs, leave it for a few weeks and observe, then add the gourami and concurrently put a few barbs in the 5 g, and so on until I've got a healthy show tank.

There's a SMALL amount of actual algae - goldy brown, makes a thin film on the glass and some plants. I've been removing that with an algae sponge and/or my fingers. What I'm talking about is some different weird stuff - it's soft, squishy (mucous-y) and in the water looks like down and feathers do in air. It's white to tan and is pretty thick in the gravel. I've been scouring the internet for what on earth is the stuff and the closest I came across was 'fungus overgrowth due to excess uneaten fish food'. Thoughts??

I read (after the fact unfortunately) that toxicity poisoning will kill all of one species all within a short time. That's what I saw - first all the rasboras, then all the cherry barbs. They would start to twitch in a very unnatural way, then died shortly after. I changed some of the water and it didn't help. I've read that can happen in species sensitive to copper. Whether that or the overload of too many meds I don't know, I just regret the whole thing. The platies seemed to tolerate the copper OK but then died due to whatever was making them flash/rub and get really weak.

Got it - going to give the tank a REALLY good cleaning, then pickle it for a while.

When I cycled my 5 g with ammonia, I put a few mL's in every other day until I started to see nitrates. That coincided with Christmas travel so I put in a puck-style fish feeder and hoped for the best. When I came back I changed out the water and put in a few mL's of ammonia. The next day I had zero ammonia and nitrites and very high nitrates. I changed out 98% of the water and put in Mr Gourami. It's now 3 days later and I just tested his water - zero ammonia and nitrites, 5 nitrates, pH 7.2 and fishie looks happy. I'm hoping to do the same with the 20 g.

Got three and counting! I REALLY want an 80 g+ but my landlord won't allow it - it would fall through the floor!

Lucy

Hi Welcome to Fish Lore

Looks like you're covered advise wise, I just wanted to day hello and good luck.

prairielilly

Thanks so much for your help - I'm in the process now of 'pickleing' the 20 g (with NO fish) and hoping for the best. Whatever it was that my fish had I've now learned enough about good husbandry practices that I can hopefully avoid a recurrence! From now on, quarantine everything and no more overstocking!

One little further question: my tank currently has a power filter on one side and an air stone on the other. I know fish don't 'need' the air stone if they have a power filter but it helps to oxygenate the water bc it disturbs the surface. It did a very good job of that actually, so much so there was NO quiet water at the top of the tank. So when I put fish food in it would pretty much immediately get distributed all over the tank. When the fish were healthy they would chase it, but they often weren't and the food would just go who knows where. Then I had the entire tank bottom covered in stuff - plants and wood and rocks - and that made it really hard to clean. So I know you're supposed to remove uneaten fish food after a few minutes, but I made that really hard for myself with how I set up my tank (plus putting a net into the tank really freaked out the fish, never good they were stressed enough and after a while they'd all hide whenever they saw me). So should I have less decor, and/or no air stone? Or does it really matter? I don't really want catfish, shrimp or snails - not really drawn to them, also prefer to fill up the tank with other fishies like cherry barbs and Mr Gourami. I blame the excess fish food for the mucous-y white stuff and my trying to remove the fish food for freaking out my fish (stressing them and contributing to making them sick).

prairielilly

Thanks! Everyone's been very helpful, so great to find

soldieroffortune1974

I'm in the process now of 'pickleing' the 20 g (with NO fish) and hoping for the best. Whatever it was that my fish had I've now learned enough about good husbandry practices that I can hopefully avoid a recurrence! From now on, quarantine everything and no more overstocking!


Quarantining is very important most people don't do it because they don't know about it.Those that do know about it,try to cut corners and usually end up with some kind of disaster.Quaranting is a necessity.It only takes 1 bad buy to have a major disaster. There are some nasties,you can't do anything about,everything else is a good idea to catch it before it has a chance to do real harm.I quarantine any and all fish for 3 weeks no matter what.It's best to be safe than sorry.

I normally understock my aquariums,you never know when that 1 fish catches your eye and you have to have it.If you're already at max stock level,you may have to pass on it,or overstock and potentially cause problems.

One little further question: my tank currently has a power filter on one side and an air stone on the other. I know fish don't 'need' the air stone if they have a power filter but it helps to oxygenate the water bc it disturbs the surface. It did a very good job of that actually, so much so there was NO quiet water at the top of the tank. So

I prefer airstones,and 2 or 3 as opposed to just 1. I use a gang valve to control the agitation of each 1. It's just a plastic piece that the tubing comes in 1 side and out the top or side,with a little control valve to regulate the airflow.It will solve the problem of too much agitation and only costs $1- $2.

You can always cover the filter inlet with a sponge (good idea for small(er) fish) to reduce the current of the filter.You can also pack more filter media behind the cartidges in the HOBs to reduce the flow as well.It creates restriction and slows the waterflow without reducing filtration. The extra material will also be readily available for when you set up another aquarium due to 'insatiable MTS' You'll have seeded matrial ready to go into the new filter

So I know you're supposed to remove uneaten fish food after a few minutes, but I made that really hard for myself with how I set up my tank (plus putting a net into the tank really freaked out the fish, never good they were stressed enough and after a while they'd all hide whenever they saw me). So should I have less decor, and/or no air stone? Or does it really matter?

With no bottom feeders?cleaners it's a good idea to remove the uneaten food. With the above suggestions on reducing the current,this may not be as big of an issue.You don't have to worry about removing every little bit of uneaten food.It's easier to give a little food at a time,if they eat it all,then you can add more. Following that,there wont be as much,if any,to remove.

I would say following the other suggestions,the decor is going to be up to you,leave it as is,add more,or take some out.The decor isn't going to be an issue (except when doing regular vacuming maintenance)

Good luck,I am confident the 2nd round will be a better experience for you and the fish.

prairielilly

The airstone did have a control valve on it, turned down to the lowest setting it would still run at. It was one of those huge spherical stones though, maybe I'll try a smaller one. The fish seemed to love it, when they were healthy they'd throw themselves into the bubble stream over and over.

I had considered packing the HOB full of extra media but I've had some initial trouble with it - pretty often the biowheel doesn't turn very well or stops completely (it was bought new with the tank in a kit less than 3 months ago, so it couldn't possibly be worn out yet). I've cleaned everything out including the impeller and usually that gets it going again. Rinsing the cartridge in a container of tank water seemed to help too, but as soon as I put the cartridge back I'd get lots of the mucous-y white stuff flying around the tank until the filter had time to suck it all up. I've been replacing the cartridge every 3-4 weeks bc I've been medicating and needed to remove the carbon; in a healthy tank I likely would replace it when it starts to fall apart (or so I've read is a good idea). So even though I hope to not have further troublems with the white stuff I'm a little hesitant to restrict the filter's flow. Or maybe fixing the excess food thing will fix that too??

agabr123

Sounds like you have everything mostly under control. I'm not sure what that "fungus" is, but depending on where it's growing I would either use ammonia or possibly even a bleach/water mixture on your gravel (rinse VERY thoroughly). I'll leave it to others if they think that the bleach is a good idea, since I've never had to use it before and have only heard that it works well.

prairielilly

Thanks so much to everyone for their help!

Today I took the tank nearly apart - I rinsed out about half the gravel as though it were new, and thoroughly vacuumed the rest (compromise between wanting to NOT kill off the biofilter and wanting to get rid of the white gunk). There was so much gunk in the tank that I couldn't see through the water once I agitated it that much - I guess it wasn't as clean as I thought, I'll have to vacuum better in the future I changed out 98% of the water, rinsed off all the decor and put the tank back together - a bit more sparingly (kinda hard for me to NOT use every plant I bought...) So now there's some free gravel in the front and lots more space between the plants, but still lots of hidey holes for the eventual inhabitants. I put more plants along one side as that faces a walkway (might be what was scaring them?)

I think it's interesting that the Marineland filter cartridge with NO carbon in it works perfectly fine on the HOB filter, but when I use a fresh cartridge the wheel barely turns. I've left the cartridge with no carbon in there and the air stone will stay as is for now I think.

I added 20 ppm ammonia and plan to continue doing so every day for the next week (no fish right now, soldieroffortune, thanks though). Yeah it's overkill I know, but at this point if I were to think I'm safe and add some cute little fishies and they started flicking---!!! and I could have prevented it --!!! I just might give up then, and I really don't want to do that. So overkill we will do, for now. Here's hoping for the best!

Happy New Year everyone!

soldieroffortune1974

Overkill may not be the word for it.There is such a thing as doing too much. If the plants are real 20ppm will kill them.If the plants are fake,then 20ppm could melt the plants. I wouldn't go over 10ppm. If you want to do it for a week,that's fine,but when using chemicals you need to be cautious. Not to mention the fumes are hazardous as well. SO be careful and think about it before you do it.Good luck.

prairielilly

Melt the plants?? My gosh! didn't think this was quite that toxic. All right, 10 ppm it is. I guess more isn't always better...

soldieroffortune1974

exactly...more isn't always better.

Red1313

in some cases it's ok to over kill, other times not so much. (but thanks for the ammonia tip as well SOF I hadn't heard of it before ) I'm not sure how stocked you will be and how much room you'll have in the end but if you have room you may want to look into a group of 3 cory's, they'll keep any over feeding issues under control.
(I originally didn't see the appeal but once you get a look at they're little boggle eyes they're hard to turn down).
It's just a thought if you have room and may be interested.
Good Luck with your tank and welcome to Fishlore.
p.s. I don't know if you are aware of this but betta pictures are mandatory The betta forum awaits... lol (if you haven't already)