Alessa

Awesome! now I lost my gorgeous fancy-tail guppy and other two guppies as well.

After the die-off like two months ago, everything seemed fine, and i began to restock... but now, fish keep dying and I dont know why.

and my little guppy, pumpy is sick. He is now in the q- rubbermaid container with an airstone, ammolock, garlic guard, stress coat and a medicine called "lifeguard" by jungle labs.


I gave him that medicine, because I did notice a little reddish spot in one side, and in the box it says it helps against "red streaks"

However, the info on these "red streaks" is vague, and I just noticed them on him. None of the other dead fish showed any red streaks or spots.

Now, even thought the rest of the tank seems and acts fine, I dont know what to believe. One day they are fine and the next dead. I think that it is time to medicate the whole tank, but I am having a lot of trouble identifying the "spots"... they look like a bacterial infection though...

Is there anything i can medicate with, that will not kill my cycle?

HELP?

Lucy

I'm so sorry Alessa.

When ever someone has problems with guppys, I remember Dino telling me how pet store guppys are not very hardy because of the way they have been bred.
When I asked about them, he advised me not to buy from a pet store, but from a reputable breeder.

I know that doesn't help your problem, but it could explain why your losing them.

Alessa

Yes, I thought about that also... but I also lost ottos and platies during the die-off...

There is something hidden in the tank since I brought in those darn neons 3 months ago... since I cant see it and cant figure out when it will take its new victim, I want to medicate with something that will not kill my cycle.

Lucy

I did a little research on that once and went back to my notes.....

Most nitrifying bacteria are gram positive while the majority of aquarium infections are gram negative.

So the use of gram positive antibiotics has a bigger risk of killing your bacteria.
Gram negative will not harm the bacteria.

The packages will usually advise if they'll effect the bacteria.

I'm looking at the Maracyn-Two package, Mardel products claim not to effect the cycle.

Kordon's herbal treatments claim to suppress the growth of the bacteria but won't kill them.

Triple Sulpha is gram negative so while this may supress new growth, it shouldn't kill the existing bacteria.

I don't see anything on the package of Jungle Parasite Clear...I beleive Lifeguard conatins the same ingediants plus some others as an all in one treatment.

I hope that helped some.

Alessa

Thank you Lucy. I think I will try Maracyn-2...

Oh gosh... I hope this was over.

Lucy

Me too. Good luck.

Matt

I am not 100% sure but could it be a bit of copper in the water

or is that only for SW?

Alessa

Ehh... I think so.... if I had copper I'd think that my snails would be dead by now.

I really think that this is a virus or a bacteria. But thanks for the imput Matt.... I have wanted to know the copper content in my water, just because I lost a lot of ghost shrimp a long time ago...

Matt

As My Signature Says : Always Happy To Help


From Matt

And no probs ill help u and anyone else anyday.

Alessa

Yep, confirmed. Red spots in the body, tail and dorsal fin...

what the heck are they?

All I found was an article in "red pest" and it says that it will only get better by making them eat medicated food... what if they arent eating at all?

it also says to disinfect the aquarium with acriflavine (trypaflavine) or monacrin? while the fish are still there!

cerianthus

As one of member mentioned, it could be that some of most of casualties are related to origin of fish. From my experience, I found that Good amount of Livebearers (especially Guppies) from certain location had lot higher mortality rate no matter what I tried.
You maybe able find better batch of livebearer by contacting local fish club/society where you can not only find better quality fish but also learn a great deal form very experienced hobbyist.
I am not saying this is the reason for your problem but it won't hurt to take few precaution.
Whenever you find certain fish you want to purchase, ask the staff how long they been in store and rather than buy them right away, how about waiting few days before making decision to purchase or even next day. This way you can make sound judgement call by observing the health of the fish (Sometimes fish will breakdown afte few days later on arrival).
Secondly, check your water before purchasing any livestock to insure new arrivals are not subjected to poor water condition ( your fish in the tank may be adjusted your water).
Thirdly, you may want to test LFS water to make sure that fish are/were not exposed to poor water.
Fourthly, when acclimating new arrival, you may want to do it in cat litter pan/bucket where tank water is drained to pan via air line tubing (tie the knot to control the flow rate or IV Line,drip method). Romove some water from the pan frequently.
Longer you acclimate the better provided the temp can be maintained. Should also add coarse bubbles to provide enough aeration in the pan.

And for future references, the ammonia has two different forms. As pH drops (becomes acidic), ammonia becomes ammonium ion ( non toxic to fish) and as pH rises (becomes alkaline), ammonium ion will change to ammonia (toxic).
I have seen numerous occassions where tank that registered high ammonia with low pH. Most people will perform Big partial water changes. If new water that is higher in pH is added to tank, ammonium ion will convert to more toxic Ammonia, causing problem to inhabitants. This is the reason why big water changes should not be perform unless toxic substance (Windex, Fantastic,etc) somehow got in the water.
Always do small water changes more frequently which will help you to reduce Ammonia
with out shifitng equilibrium between Ammonium ion and Ammonia too much .
If you keep a jounal of all the events and maintenance ( water changes, test) that took place, just post it so that we can have better understanding of your problem(s) which will lead to more sound advises by our members.
I hope I did not make it more confusing.

cerianthus

Red Blotches on/in the body, fins, tails can be internal hemmoraghing due to exposure to NH3, NO2, especially NO2.
Kanacyn by Aquatronics worked well on such bacterials infections.
Just remove ONLY CARBON form filtration. Be sure to follow the direction since certain ANTIBIOTICS alone can produce NH3 as it breaks down.

Alessa

My tank water was 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and 0 nitrate. There is no ammonia in the tank.

The tank receives partial 20% water changes weekly, and it is planted.

The PH is stable around 7.

I know that redness is normally associated with ammonia poisoning.. however, my tank has had no ammonia spikes since it was cycled back in march, and the fish that is undergoing treatment has been there for about 4 months with no problems.

Icould understand losing the "new" guppies. But what about ottos, platies...? I am talking about fish that I had had for months with no problems, until, I added 4 neon tetras and boom! everyone began to die.

I thought I was done with it, unfortunately, it seems like I am not.

I am sure that whatever it is, is a bacterial condition that came with some new arrivals I unfortunately did not quarantain 2 months ago.

Matt

Have You Found Out The Cause Yet Alyssa

From Matt

ER9

i wish you luck. i had similar red spots once on my danios only a couple and very hard to see. i was told as you seemed to have figured out its probably and most likely a bacterial infection. i used jungle labs parasite clear with success. unfortunatelly any of my fish that seemed even slightly affected at the time of treatment died....with the exception of a gold chinese suckermouth. i also found out as well that alot of fish....even some from better aquarium shops are heavilly inbred and naturally are more susceptible to anything and everything. ironically some of the fish we have come to know as hardy, tough fish (ie danios) are doomed an early death because of this careless breeding. i have since lost all of mine...the last few in a recent unexplained dieoff like your experiencing now. like you my tank is cycled and water quality was excellent. also a heavilly planted tank. all of a sudden my leopard and gallaxy danios just withered away and died in a few days time. strangly enough in my case....my more sensative fish and shrimp are perfectly healthy and content. its a very frustrating hobby sometimes.

cerianthus

It just may be that new arrivals have brought something with them.
If the fish you had for four month survive through cycling process, they may have been exposed to NH3, NO2.
NO2 can have a long term effects on fish, just like if one is exposed to carbon monoxide.
Carbon monoxide/Nitrite when iexposed to man/fish, will bind to gas exchange site (oxygen & carbon dioxide)on hemoglobin. Once attched, less gas exchange takes place. What kind of effect on victims? Depends on duration of exposure. More intake of CO/CO2, more critical.
I believe one can completely regain health but can fail down the road.
It is very hard to determine exactly what's causing all this?
Also loose the AMMOLOCK which can distort reading on certain NH3 test kit (Liquid Test kit). It should say on the bottle, maybe in small print, that one have to use 2 step NH3 Test Kit (Dry Tab) when using AMMOLOCK.
Try not to use any Med w/o knowing exactly what since Med itself can be toxic to fish when used improperly.You would'nt take ANY Med because you think you are sick.
Stresscoat, I don't think it relieves any stress on the fish. If it did, I may take some every night.LOL. Do not use too much since very slimy. No need to use more than needed.
Like I said , I had good results from KANACYN by AQUATRNICS for symptoms you described. Good Luck!

Lucy

Just to clarify a couple of things:

Alessa's tank was cycled fish-less


She's only using ammo-lock in the uncycled rubbermaid container she's using for quarantining the guppy, not her main tank.

Alessa

Thanks Lucy

sirdarksol

I have no useful input on the problem, but I hope your fish get better.

Alessa

Thank you sds

Alessa

Thankyou ER9. I will try the jungle labs parasite clear as well.

cerianthus

How can you cycle the tank fish-less. When one used certain productson the market, it still will may go thru so called mini-cycle. I have used so called Live Nitifying bacteria from Lab shipped over night on numerous occassions and I found out that no big differences in process. Actually I had more problem trying to fasten the process.
I can establish the tank in one day provided I take water and substrate & Filter media from the Well-established tank and add the fish at the same time w/o any ill affect.
Unless one is on top of the tank on daily basis, one can never know when NH3 or NO2 spikes. And also NO2 effect on fish is very hard to determine. There are known method to detox Nitrite poisoning due to shipping if used properly. Ususally done on S/W fish. Whether if it actually worked or not, very hard to tell since each individual fish are different. But generally it is used to Detox NO2.
Especially in QT, one should not use AMMOLOCK. When setting up QT. Use water from main tank and filter materials ( could run sponge filters on main tank to be used for such occassion ). Then no need to use any water treatments. Need to monitor QT water more closely.
There are pathogens in the tank all the time, looking for weak fish to attack. Healthy fish can fight back just like we do.
One can never eradicate these pathogens. If one can eradicate all biological activities (bacteria, fungal, virus, parasite), tank can not support life.
Therefore it is imperative to maintain the tank in optimal condition at all times and do research on your own to learn the basics first then apply your experiences/advices. This way one can make more accurate and sound decisions.
" Ounce of prevention is better than pound of cure"

Lucy

Kind of off topic here, but you can cycle fish less using a different source of ammonia besides fish.
Pure ammonia, fish food and I've heard but never tried raw fish (Ew to that one) lol

I do the same thing, however, not everyone has access to established media and/or gravel.

Alessa

First of all yes, there is a way. Adding ammonia drops to the FISHLESS tank to replace fish waste until the tank cycles.

Second yes, there is a need for using ammolock in my q because the medicine that I am using does not allow for water changes and ammonia does accumulate in the tank. I dont want my guppy to die from ammonia poisoning... and yes, I am well aware of the effects that ammolock has, thats the reason why I never use it in the main tank.

Thirdly, yes, there is a way to know when ammonia and nitrite spike... If you are aware of your tank conditions, do maintenance and your biological filtration is well established like mine then, there shouldnt be any spikes.If there are they would register in the liquid master test kit?

Fourthly, I do know that one "should do research" thats why I have been keeping fish successfuly for a good 7 months now UNTIL I got those darn neons, and didn't Q them. I am a committed aquarist, and I believe that research is the first thing one must do. Thats the reason why I cycled the tank FISHLESS, I did my research... Cycling with fish is barbaric and I think anyone with a bit of respect for their aquatic creatures would understand and respect that.

Fifthly, I do know that "there are always going to be pathogens in the tank" It is supposed to be a mini-ecosystem. I am just trying to find a way to control this particular one so that my fish will stop dying.

Red pest is a gram-negative bacteria that has a mortality rate of 50%, and is more common in saltawater environments. External treatements do not seem to be very effective. I am now struggling with the fact that I need to get medicated food but guess what... sick fish wont eat.

And yes, I should get fish from a more "reputable" dealer next time, and quarantin my fish, But I am not going to give up on the ones I have. I have done my research on this rare disease and I know that I am up against something that will either kill half of my fish or require me to kill my cycle in order to kill it. It is not an easy desicion for me to make.


Oh, and like Lucy said, I didnt have access to gravel or media when I first started my tank.

cerianthus

Have anyone ever used Ammonia and Ammonium chloride. I have used ammonia some 30 years ago with different results since every attempt were not identical. The nitrifying bacteria only multiplies in numbers equal to bio load. In fact, colonies of Nitrobacter (one that oxidize NO2 to NO3) will perish in presence of High NH3 even in well established tank, causing NO2 surge. That is the reason why nitrification is two step process. I've learn Ammonia method from old hobbyist (they must be in their 70's, 80's), from whom i've learned great deal, w/o using all the products on the market now days. Once the NH3 is oxided to NO2, need to continue to feed them via artificial method keep colonies of Nitrosomonas going. Why do it artifially by adding chemicals when possible with few fish w/o jeopardizing their health, if one can handle the process. I found thru experience, NH3 method is more delicate way of starting the tank, can result in disaster if one is not careful.

No need for ammolock/Amquel in QT provided biological activities were introduced to Qt via Main tank water & Filter media. It is your choice. Read the label on AMMOLOCK/AMQUEL, it should state to use Salicylate Agents (2 tablets) to obtain accurate NH3 reading.

I am glad that you are as into hobby as I am , cares and admire the beauty of our treasured livestocks. Been in the hobby for more than 40 years. I had most success, without loss, establishing biological activities with fish than artificial method. Although I had fish from early childhood, what got me into hobby so deeply was a pair of Geophagus steindacneri. Since then I had 30+ tanks in river system and separate breeding tanks ( in 80's and single). Once one has the bug, can't seem to get rid of it, not that I want to.

Believe me when I tell you there are pathogens in the tank all the times ( maybe not every kind ).
Compare to our surroundings. Because one stays at home all the time, one will not catch cold. It only takes the virus come into house via whatever way, then virus is present at home. Does this virus affects everyone in the househod? May or just someone more vulnerable(children, elderly). This is just simple analogy to explain to you that as soon as you introduce a single fish, it is very highly that your tank can sustain other pathogen brought in by fish. If nitrifying bacteria can survive , why not pathogenic bacteria. If i remember correctly, certain pathogens can produce spores which can be in dormant stage until the conditions are right for them with weakened host..

I don't want to get into Micro/Molecular/Cellular Biology at this point. I may have to find my text book if I can find them. It's been 30 years since I touch these books.

I know it is difficult to assess the problem without Bio/Chem Lab in the house. But what ever you do, keep a journal which can assist you in fish keeping down the road.

I am glad to hear that you are not giving up. I am sure what you are learning from this unfortunate event will prevent further mishap in the future.

My apology if I made it more difficult for you. I was just trying to help rahter than make it more confusing.Try looking up online for following books where I learned a lot about pathogens of Fish.
1. Textbook of Fish Health (Dr. George Post -Fish Pathologist, TFH Pub)
2. Handbook of Fish Diseases (Dieter Untergasser- wrote many books on Hobby, TFH Pub)
I am not sure if these are still in circulation but try book forums.

Good Luck and LMK the outcome.

Alessa

I got the anti-bacterial jungle labs food.

No one likes it... but I know with a little bit of hunger, they will eat it.


The one that worries me is the little fella in the q-tank... if the infection does not kill him then he will die of starvation... he wont even eat bloodworms, how will i get him to eat medicated food?


This is so frustrating.

Beeker

Alessa,
I'm sorry to hear about you losing your fish. I hope the rest of them pull through. I don't know if Maracyn makes a product for Red Pest parasites, but their medications have always been gold to me. I hope your Jungle Tabs do the trick.

Lucy,
I also didn't have gravel or filter media from an established tank. I did the pure ammonia method too. It worked like a charm. It was a great method, and if I had to do it again, I would, rather than forcing innocent creatures to live in such an unstable and toxic environment. If people complain about smog, why should I force a fish, who has no choice but to live where I put it, to live in conditions that I would be unhappy with?

cerianthus

It is choice that each individual have to choose. It is also very possible to establish the tank using live stock w/o exposing them to toxic watse product if one know how to control it just like one know how to do it w/ pure ammonia. Once one has one tank well establish, should be able to set up new 2nd & 3rd tanks with ease without using pure ammonia.

Lucy

Thanks for info cerianthus. It is true, everyone has a way of doing things. We have to choose which is one we're most comfortable with.
I'm sure with your backgound in fishkeeping, you'll be a great asset to the forum.


Alessa

I'm really sorry you're going through this. I know what you mean about the food. It's impossible to force a fish to eat.
I hope whatever you're doing works and the little guy pulls through.

Alessa

Ok, what I found out about the disease is:

It is not easily killed with water antibiotics. The only ones that help are the ones present in medicated foods.

If fish arent eating, one should use a disinfectant... :/ Lifeguard by jungle has a compound of N-halamine which is a potent disinfectant... I hope it will work.

What I am doing is medicating the fish in the Q and feeding the ones in the main... lets hope this works.