|  |  |
October 26th, 2008
|
| | Fish Keeper
| Flashing Fishes Some of our platies and danios have started flashing against the plants in the aquarium, two of the platies seem slightly lethargic, but still swim around a fair bit and eat. One of them, a mickey mouse platy (Spot) is REALLY fat looking, but all the other fish are of normal size. The problem is, I can't find any other symptoms. So I really have no idea what treatment route to take. Lots of diseases cause lethargy and flashing. I considered dropsy for the fat fish, but no potruding scales. Is there something I'm missing that I should be looking for? Should I just try a number of different treatments and cross my fingers? (sounds like a bad idea to me)
[UPDATE] Just noticed that two of our "healthy" fish have two to three white chalky looking specks on them. One, a red wag platy (Red) has one on his forehead and one between his head and dorsal fin, the other a sunburst platy (Leo) has one on a fin and one on his side. They're VERY small, but very pure white, so they do stand out, I just wasn't looking at those fish because they acted fine. The "sick" acting fish have no spots that I can find.
I am considering ICH now because of the spots. But do Ich spots come in patches or just one here and one there? Last edited by dancerhas; October 26th, 2008 at 01:04 AM.
|
| |
October 26th, 2008
|
| | Fish Master
| it can do both...if its ich, 83f temps for two weeks will kill it..add some extra oxygen as warmer water has less and vacuum the subtrate as ich spores hide in there... |
| |
October 26th, 2008
|
| | Fish Keeper
| Another disease worth investigating is columnaris. From this thread, clinton1621 posted the following (the bold parts I emphasized because they seem to match your symptoms): Quote:
Originally Posted by clinton1621 Ok, from researching several different sources, some mentioning a few symptoms and others listing full symptoms, here is a rough workup for possible diagnosis by symptoms.....
1. Early stages present possibly on the glass as small white clearish looking strings (resembles a parasite but really small) that flow in the water current.
2. Small white to gray 'pimples' or spots on the fishes lips, gill plates, body, or fins that have a stringy look to them (note that ich appears similar but is much smaller and does not appear stringy).... this is an early stage of columnaris and is harder to spot. Other possible symptoms at this stage could be flashing, darting around erraticly, scratching, or shimmying. Lack of appetite may not be noticed at this stage, so just because they are still eating doesnt mean they are healthy.
3. Spreading of the pimples or spots to a larger size and noticable loss of flesh and coloring in the surrounding tissue, usually inflamed as well. This stage leads to multiple infections of other diseases or parasites (most commonly fungal infections, which is why they are often confused in diagnosis) due to the open sores as the columnaris decays the tissue. Probable notice of lack of appetite.
4. Gill infestation which turns the gills a brown to black color, this is much harder to see and by this point it is rarely treatable as the columaris will have destroyed enough gill tissue to make it irreversable. Rapid gilling and lack of movement and appetite are very likely.
5. In the later EXTERNAL stages such as #'s 3. and 4. above (which should be obvious by then) the fish will stop eating entirely and become lethargic. Massive loss of tissue and severe necrosis down to the internal organs is possible. This stage is also rarely treatable as the damage to the fish is too severe. Note that internal infections will also cause them to stop eating completely as well, but there may be NO external signs on the fish, so this would be a much harder diagnosis.
6. Internal infections as mentioned in # 5. above sometimes present no external symptoms, this causes muscle tissue loss and organ necrosis from the inside out. For obvious reasons this is very hard to diagnose and usually by the time it presents externally it is too late for treatment to be succesful.
7. This is a tough one... certain strains will kill the fish in as little as 24 to 48 hours with possibly none of the symptoms listed above. Usually a tank wide die off occurs without warning over the course of a few days. This strain is virtually untreatable.
Treatment....
Lower the water temp to 75 - 76 degrees... higher temps make this bacteria multiply faster and become more agressive.
Raise oxygen levels in the tank... lower oxygen levels do the same as high temps, and the fish will also need the extra oxygen in case of gill damage.
Gram Negative antibacterials such as,
Triple Sulfa or any gram negative Sulfa meds will work in the very early stages.
Kanamycin, Nitrofurazone or Minocycline (Maracyn 2) will work in either early or later stages.
There are also medicated foods , such as oxytetracycline, that are listed as possible treatments but due to the fact that the fish usually arent eating I would say these would only be effective in VERY early stages
Note that gram positive Tetracycline and Erythromicin (Maracyn 1) are sometimes listed as treatments, but they are NOT EFFECTIVE because columnaris is gram negative.
EDIT : This bacteria is highly attracted to the fishes organic slime coat and is why it also can appear on the inside glass surface where there is a buildup of organic slime. | |
| |
October 26th, 2008
|
| | Fish Keeper
| Columnaris doesn't seem to match too well, the spots are not stringy at all. I would liken them to little bits of chalk. I also see no inflammation around the spots.
As for vacuuming the substrate, how do you go about that? I assume you need some special gizmo. Also, wouldn't that get rid of the good bacteria, and I would need to re-cycle my tank? |
| |
October 26th, 2008
|
| | Fish Master
| once your tank is established, its not an issue..if you are still cycleing, it might set it back a bit but the ich is more important to get rid of right now than the cycle completion...daily water changes are needed for both anyhow  |
| |
October 27th, 2008
|
| | Fish Keeper
| Thanks for all your replies.
I think things are getting worse in my tank. I used some Tank Buddies Ick Clear Tabs to clear the ick (used them before, seemed to work fairly well). I removed the filter during use because the instructions said to remove activated carbon from the filter. Reinserted the filter late last night. All my fish are acting either lethargic or insane. My one algae eater was jumping out of the water, and all my platies are sitting on the bottom or flashing.
When I removed the filter I found some mold or mildew under the lid to the filtration system. So I left the lid off so it could air out and kill that. Could that be affecting my fish as well? |
| |
October 27th, 2008
|
| | Fish Keeper
| wow personally I would do a water chage with gravel vac right away and see if that helps...my ick med of choice is coppersafe. It is active for 1 month so all you have to do is replace what is removed during water changes. It also will kill any other external parasites if ick is not the ptoblem. Have you a water test kit? I would test right away before you change the water and see if the parameters are way off. ( fish trying to jump out is a indicator of bad water )....good luck.
lid off or on the filter should make no difference Last edited by Fishies-for-me; October 27th, 2008 at 11:08 AM.
Reason: more info |
| |
October 27th, 2008
|
| | Moderator
| I'm sorry your fish aren't well.
What are your readings for ammonia nitrites and nitrates?
I agree with Fishies, I'd do a water change. |
| |
October 27th, 2008
|
| | Fish Keeper
| Unfortunately we do not have a gravel vac. We've used a large scoop and two pails (one for dirty and one for clean) to change our water.
Here's my water parameters:
Ammonia very little - none (I don't think our meter is dead accurate) pH 7.4
Alk 200 chlorine 0
Hardness 150 nitrite 0 nitrate VERY little
I tested before and after changing the water, and they were very similair, these parameters are AFTER the water change.
We just changed a good bit of the water, I also cleaned out the filter tube so no bacteria/spores/parasites could linger in snagged debris (not sure if this will do anything or not)
Another note on our little algae eater, he has/had very accelerated respiration. he's since calmed down slightly since the water change (not jumping out of water) but still fast respiration. |
| |
October 27th, 2008
|
| | Moderator
| A gravel vacuum is well worth the money and in my opinion necessary. It'll make water changes so much easier and you'll be able to suck out left over food and fish waste that can cause ammonia spikes.
Also, if you're dealing with ick, vacuuming the gravel will get rid of the spores, like Shawnie advised. |
| |
October 27th, 2008
|
| | Fish Keeper
| I second the gravel vac...if you get a manual one ( not a python or such ) they are not that expensive and well worth it . I wish you had the readings from before the change to compare with after...oh well...the fact that the respirations have improved on the one fish tells me that fresh water helped...maybe continuing with water changes every day for a week ( 15-20%) will bring things under control....good luck. ( the fact you have amonia detected after the change makes me wonder what was there before) |
| |
October 27th, 2008
|
| | Fish Keeper
| I really wonder about that ammonia meter. Depending on the light it's viewed under it can appear green (slight ammonia) or yellow (no ammonia) I need to get a different type of ammonia test to be sure about it. But it's never gotten anywhere close to blue, ( so called danger levels though I understand ANY ammonia is dangerous)
Our Red wag platy (who's been hiding most of the time) has emerged long enough for me to get a look at his white spots.
A: there are more
B: they look softer now, not hard
C: they are in different positions than they were
I was looking at petsmart.com and they had vacuums available in store for around $18 Not too bad.
Something else noteworthy, I started adding aquarium salt about 2 weeks ago. That seems to be around the time I started having problems. Do I need to add more for every water change? (it seems logical that I would) |
| |
October 27th, 2008
|
| | Fish Lore Newbie
| My molly had some of the same symptoms as your fish. She was flashing, crashing into things, lethargic, but still eating. I used Jungle Labs parasite clear and she got much better real fast. I suspected that she had internal parasites. |
| |
October 27th, 2008
|
| | Fish Keeper
|
I'm to the point where I'd try it just in case, but I'm also worried about trying random cures when I'm not 100% sure what my fish have.
Our Twin barred platy is acting really sick, I don't think he's going to make it.
I'm quite worried
I just read in the "Curing Ick" article that this person raises the temp to 85-88 degrees F. I've considered doing something like that, but that seems SO high. I'm afraid it would hurt my fish when their recommended temp is from 75-82 degrees F.
I have also been unable to locate coppersafe in any of my local pet stores. Last edited by dancerhas; October 27th, 2008 at 02:37 PM.
|
| |
October 27th, 2008
|
| | Fish Keeper
| Okay, well I finally was able to purchase Coppersafe at a local pet store, but it says that it can harm plants and some snails. I'm worried that if I put this treatment in, that it will kill my snail. Should I put my snail in a separate tank while I treat my other fish? Any other suggestions? |
| |
October 27th, 2008
|
| | Moderator
| If you have a quarantine tank, you can move the sick there and treat them or if they're all sick, move the snail.
The ick treatment that Shawnie gave you in a previous post is safe for your fish, just increase the aeration like she said.
Is it possible to post a pic? Maybe someone will be able to pin point what's wrong. |
| |
October 27th, 2008
|
| | Fish Keeper
| vacums at walmart $7.49 |
| |
October 27th, 2008
|
| | Fish Keeper
| Thank you so much for all your helpful replies.
We do not have a "quarantine tank". When we got our tank we were complete and total fish noobs and had no idea about the need for one. We do have a small 1.5 gallon fish tank from many years ago. I suggested this to my fiance as a temporary (and very carefully monitored) home for our snail while we treat our beloved fish.
Would you suggest trying the temperature method first, or coppersafe? Oddly enough just two days ago our air pump crapped out so right now we are without extra aeration.
Fishies: Thanks for the note about vacuums, will definitely be picking one up |
| |
October 27th, 2008
|
| | Moderator
| If it's ick, yes, I'd raise the temp rather than medicate but you'd have to increase the aeration.
Ick looks like salt sprinkled on the fish. If it's fuzzy patches it would more than likely be a fungus.
The 1.5 would be fine for the snail for now. I would be hesitant to treat the whole tank with meds unless all your fish are ill.
Almost anything can be used as a Q tank. I've used a 1.5 hex, a 5g hex and a 4g kritter keeper. Some members have used clean plastic rubber made totes. |
| |
October 27th, 2008
|
| | Fish Keeper
| Almost all of our fish are sick...unfortunately.
I think we have velvet AND ick. I just noticed that almost all of our fish have RAPID RESPIRATION, some have GREYISH FUZZY PATCHES (velvet), and others have HARD WHITE DOTS (ich cysts?). Fortunately both are treated with Coppersafe. We opted to raise the temp, increase aeration, AND add coppersafe.
Unfortunately it came too late for our Twin Barred platy. We just lost him.
As for Mr. Snail, he is happily exploring his Hotel Room.  I'm open to suggestions on how to reintroduce the snail to the tank once this is over WITHOUT reintroducing the ick and velvet along with him.
Thanks for the replies, I will update soon. Last edited by dancerhas; October 27th, 2008 at 11:05 PM.
|
| |
October 27th, 2008
|
| | Moderator
| I'm so sorry you've lost your fish.
Good luck and keep us updated. |
| |
October 28th, 2008
|
| | Fish Keeper
| Well the coppersafe is active in the main tank for a month....( just replace what is taken out with water changes...example if you change 10 gallons add enough for 10 gallons not for the whole 29 ) When it comes time to remove it put the carbon back in and then do frequent water changes to suck out the copper and don't replace it...I am not sure about velvet but ick would be long gone in a month.... you may want to pick up a small heater for the snail...not sure how much cooler water will affect them.By the time you are sure that all of the copper is out of the tank and the water is safe for him/her then the ick.velvet should not be a prob with reintrodution anyhow as the sanail can not get infected with it he can only carry spores in the drops of water that would be transfered over with him.... and yqw for the heads up on vacuums .. I was in Walmart last night and looked for them to price....good luck. |
| |
October 28th, 2008
|
| | Fish Master
| the salt will make the plec very sick and some other fish dont tolerate it..so the warm temps at 83 for two weeks for the ich, daily water changes of at least 50%or more with some prime condtitioner, and 2 times a week vacuum for two weeks with the ich, will help alot....do not add anything else for now except the water condioner...and you were right about any amounts of ammonia..it should be 0 ....goodluck! |
| |  | |