clinton1621

Well, after researching a lot about this bacteria and also another thread on here where Mathas and I were trying to figure out what these small clear whitish looking things that sway in the water current on the inside of our glass were, I have come to an unfortunate conclusion in my case.....

One of my gouramis (the powder blue) had developed a sore that seemed to get larger and larger on his side right behind his gill after being bitten by my other gourami, at first I thought it was just from that but.... I had already noticed tiny white patches on the bottom lips of almost all my rasbora which had a short "string" hanging off of it.... and then I noticed my corys both have the same tiny spot and string on their dorsal fins....

I was looking up columnaris for someone else and wouldnt you know it.... the things on the glass and all the symptoms of my fish are the EXACT description of columnaris in the early stages... with the exception of the powder blue gourami, which I sadly had to euthanise because of his wound, this is apparently the late stage of columnaris that attacked his open sore from being bitten.

So it looks like I'm off to get some triple sulfa and or maracyn 2 tomorrow... fortunately the other fish dont seem to be affected other than the tiny spots I described so I hope I can save them =(

Anyone have experience with using Maracyn 2 or triple sulfa (or any sulfa meds) and how they would affect a recently cycled tanks bacteria levels

Lucy

That's interesting, I've had something similar to that, but just wiped them off the glass during water changes.
I wish I could remember if I lost my 2 neons around that same time. They had whiteish spots on them, once the spots show up, the neons were gone the next day.

clinton1621

EXACTLY the columnaris from what I understand only lasts in the water for about a month or two and then dies off.... and it will kill small, sick or injured fish very quickly (in as little as 24 hours) thats why I'm worried about my rasboras and the panda corys

Dino

It MAY be hydra.
Are you familiar with them?
They also attach small or wounded fish.

Best of luck and let us know what happens.

Alessa

Thats what I thought they where. But in the other thread (see below) the members suggested it was colummnaris.

I have seen the pics. I have the EXACT same thing in my tanks. Nevertheless, I have never lost a fish. (knock on wood)

I did the same as Lucy did, and they are dissapearing now.

What is this stuff on my glass?

clinton1621

No I'm not familiar with hydra... but now I noticed my only gourami left out of the 2 has a white colored lesion that has the same thread looking string at the base of his dorsal fin and another right behind his left gill plate... this is the exact spot that the other gourami got the lesion that turned into a massive sore...ugh...

Lucy

The more I think about it, the more I think if the white things were on my glass at the same time that I lost my neons, I would have made the connection. At least I would hope so.
I remember checking the water parameters and doing water changes.

clinton1621

Mathas also has the same thing on his glass... and we both noticed our fish spazzing out as if they were being chased or flashing, but not scratching, he has already starting losing a few fish unexpectedly now.... with no obvious sign of cause....

clinton1621

This is the link describing it as an early stage showing up on the glass....

http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/articles/columnaris.html

Dino

Sounds like it may be it.

My take would be to decrease the amount feed and lower stocking levels, or this will be something you may face on a recurring basis.
I would try the sulfa drugs and see if that does not eliminate the organism.

Again, best of luck.

joy613

Here is another forum that has some pretty sound advice when it comes to treating fish http://flippersnfins.yuku.com/topic/...olumnaris.html
I hope this might be some help. This link shows it up close http://www.flippersandfins.net/flexibacter.htm

clinton1621

Thanks a lot Dino, on an interesting note... I researched treatments for this and found out that sulfa is sometimes only effective on columnaris in very early stages, and that kanamycin or minocycline are the two best gram negative antibiotics to use for treatment... what I find interesting is although Maracyn 1 claims to be the treatment for columnaris, it uses erythromycin, which is gram positive and has very little effect on gram negative bacteria (columnaris is gram negative). Maracyn 2 meanwhile isnt labeled to treat columnaris, but it is minocycline, which is the gram negative antibiotic thats recommended for treating this!

I wonder how many people have used Maracyn 1 only to have their fish die because this wasnt the proper medication for columnaris

EDIT : Also I dont believe its a stocking problem... I'm actually understocked as far as inch size =) The fish are relatively new and they all came from the same store... which the tanks there were HEAVILY overstocked (just like every fish store I've ever seen..... so what can you do) so that would be my guess as to the origin. I've also learned that it spreads much more rampantly and shows up more often in late summer due to higher water temps and lower dissolved oxygen levels... dont you just love global warming lol!

clinton1621

Ok, from researching several different sources, some mentioning a few symptoms and others listing full symptoms, here is a rough workup for possible diagnosis by symptoms.....

1. Early stages present possibly on the glass as small white clearish looking strings (resembles a parasite but really small) that flow in the water current.

2. Small white to gray 'pimples' or spots on the fishes lips, gill plates, body, or fins that have a stringy look to them (note that ICH appears similar but is much smaller and does not appear stringy).... this is an early stage of columnaris and is harder to spot. Other possible symptoms at this stage could be flashing, darting around erraticly, scratching, or shimmying. Lack of appetite may not be noticed at this stage, so just because they are still eating doesnt mean they are healthy.

3. Spreading of the pimples or spots to a larger size and noticable loss of flesh and coloring in the surrounding tissue, usually inflamed as well. This stage leads to multiple infections of other diseases or parasites (most commonly fungal infections, which is why they are often confused in diagnosis) due to the open sores as the columnaris decays the tissue. Probable notice of lack of appetite.

4. Gill infestation which turns the gills a brown to black color, this is much harder to see and by this point it is rarely treatable as the columaris will have destroyed enough gill tissue to make it irreversable. Rapid gilling and lack of movement and appetite are very likely.

5. In the later EXTERNAL stages such as #'s 3. and 4. above (which should be obvious by then) the fish will stop eating entirely and become lethargic. Massive loss of tissue and severe necrosis down to the internal organs is possible. This stage is also rarely treatable as the damage to the fish is too severe. Note that internal infections will also cause them to stop eating completely as well, but there may be NO external signs on the fish, so this would be a much harder diagnosis.

6. Internal infections as mentioned in # 5. above sometimes present no external symptoms, this causes muscle tissue loss and organ necrosis from the inside out. For obvious reasons this is very hard to diagnose and usually by the time it presents externally it is too late for treatment to be succesful.

7. This is a tough one... certain strains will kill the fish in as little as 24 to 48 hours with possibly none of the symptoms listed above. Usually a tank wide die off occurs without warning over the course of a few days. This strain is virtually untreatable.


Treatment....

Lower the water temp to 75 - 76 degrees... higher temps make this bacteria multiply faster and become more agressive.

Raise oxygen levels in the tank... lower oxygen levels do the same as high temps, and the fish will also need the extra oxygen in case of gill damage.

Gram Negative antibacterials such as,

Triple Sulfa or any gram negative Sulfa meds will work in the very early stages.

Kanamycin, Nitrofurazone or Minocycline (Maracyn 2) will work in either early or later stages.

There are also medicated foods , such as oxytetracycline, that are listed as possible treatments but due to the fact that the fish usually arent eating I would say these would only be effective in VERY early stages

Note that gram positive Tetracycline and Erythromicin (Maracyn 1) are sometimes listed as treatments, but they are NOT EFFECTIVE because columnaris is gram negative.

EDIT : This bacteria is highly attracted to the fishes organic slime coat and is why it also can appear on the inside glass surface where there is a buildup of organic slime.

mathas

I was really hoping you were wrong about this one

I guess I swing by the store today and pick up some Maracyn 2

Fishies-for-me

I don't know about the other meds ...but I used triiple sulpha about 6 - 7 weeks ago for a case of fin rot in my 36 gal tank and now have a major ammonia spike in a tank that has been cycled for months. I use the API test kit and usualy test weekly before water changes ..last week I was strapped for time and as I have 5 tanks to test and at 5 min per test...lol I skipped the test and just did a water change and this week I have ammonia showing between 2-4...( sigh..water changes alllll this week!!) So Imho triple sulpha WILL harm your cycle!

clinton1621

Heres what I found out about this.... The nitrifying bacteria in aquariums is primarily gram positive, so using triple sulfa would definitely cause a bacteria dieoff because triple sulfa is actually both gram positive and gram negative (it has 3 different sulfa meds in it). Not to say that the other gram negative meds would be safer, but they should have less of an impact on the cycle than triple sulfa for that reason.

clinton1621

Update : Well I started treatment today with minocycline (maracyn-two), day 1 of 5 according to the directions but I will probably go with a full 10 days as thats what seems to be the most recommended for this. So far everyone is still eating and swimming around normally the only one that looks worse is the Gourami (he has flaking skin around the whitish areas now)... which from the research I did seems to fit because Gouramis and Bettas along with soft skin catfish are apparently highly affected by columnaris... along with the fact that my other Gourami (rip) was the first one to present major signs. I will keep an update on this to see how everything goes =)

Alessa

What do I do? I have had the exact same things in both of my tanks, and no one has ever even been sick ( I even have otos, who have soft skin) and the only two fish I ever lost where way before I got them. (Two dwarf gouramis due to iridovirus, confirmed). I have fry in one tank and If I cause a mini cycle i am going to hurt them if not kill them. Should I still medicate? they have been dissapearing ever since I scraped them off the glass...

clinton1621

Unless you are still noticing a buildup on the glass, or any of the symptoms I listed above, then I would say its a personal opinion as to whether you should treat your tanks. The triple sulfa is guaranteed to put you in a mini-cycle so if you decide to treat I would go with Maracyn-two.

clinton1621

Update : Well it looks like day 1 has gone well, no further spreading of any of the spots or sores.... the tiny spots on a couple of the rasboras lips seems to have dissapeared as well, of course that could be because they were eating pieces of the maracyn 2 as it dissolved... hope they dont OD lol. The Gourami seems to be the same, no improvement in the sores but no further spreading... his spots are the largest though. The corys spots at the top their dorsal fins are gone as well but the tip of the fin is gone.... on an interesting note, the Otos seem completely unaffected and have been the whole time even though they have been in direct contact with the stuff on the glass, maybe they have a higher immunity to it

clinton1621

Update : Start of day 2 treatmeant.... Everyone is still alive and kicking =)
All of the larger spots, especially on the gourami, have shrunk a little in size and seem to be healing. The stringy stuff on the spots appearing on the fish is gone, the little stringy spots that were attached to the inside glass have dissapeared as well... I guess that CONFIRMS they were columnaris bacteria. Otos still show no signs of any infection.

mathas

Day two for my Maracyn-Two regimen as well.

Like clinton, all my fish are still alive, but I did notice for the first time this morning that one of my rasboras has a white/gray growth just above its mouth that seems to match all the pictures of columnaris. Now my minocycline treatment is no longer a "better safe than sorry" treatment, but rather an attempt to eliminate the columnaris bacteria.

My water temps have been a bit high, mainly because of my lighting, so I unplugged my heater in an attempt to help drop the temps below the 81-82º I'd been sitting at. I did that last night, and as of now, the tank temperatures are still around the 80º mark. Ambient room temperature is around 75º, so I'm not sure how to reduce the temps any further.

I have an airstone that runs on an opposite timer from my lights, so I have the plants photosynthesizing oxygen into the water while the lights are on, and the increased surface agitation from the airstone enhancing gas exchange when the lights are off. Hopefully that will help a bit too.

EDIT: I posted a couple of close-up pictures of the bacterial growth on my tank walls in the 'What's this stuff on my glass' thread Alessa linked to, but I'm attaching another to this thread just for reference, in case someone searches for columnaris but doesn't read the other thread.

Attached Images

columnaris.jpg (360.3 KB, 52 views)

Lucy

mathas and clinton, thanks for doing all research on documenting your treatments, I'm sure it will help other members in the future.

mathas, thanks for pic, that doesn't look like what I had on my tank. Mine were more of a tiny worm looking thing and disappeared after water changes and wiping down the tank.

MousePotato

Very interesting reading, everybody. I'm not trying to hijack, but mind if I cut in?

I was the person they were trying to help in another thread and I'd like to add my own observations in case they may help anyone. I did not get to witness the early, early stages because I bought my tank fully stocked and apparently already affected, but I did make one observation the first time I saw it - all the fish were gasping just a bit. Not at the surface, but everywhere they swam. Their breathing seemed just slightly labored and I assumed at the time the tank had low oxygen.

We brought the tank home on the tenth and my husband immediately noticed what looked like small spots of dry skin on a few of the fish. Most noticeably it was on the yellow labs mouths and gills, the clown loach's nose and sides, and over the eyes of the Synodontis eupterus (you can see pics in my thread - I don't know how to link it).

We were going to treat for fungus, but first I tested the water and prepared to do a large water change since you can't do them while treating. Fortunately (oddly enough), the nitrates were very high, so I did 50% water changes for the next five days before we began using Rid-Fungus. I mention this because I suspect it was these massive water changes that slowed the progress in my fish.

We treated with Rid-Fungus for about 5 days and it seemed to help some spots (secondary infection?), but others got worse. I came back here and clinton suggested Columnaris, gave me some links for homework and told me how to treat it. So, I did my reading, bought my meds and on Monday I did another 50% water change before beginning medication (Maracyn-Two). We are on day three of treatment and so far I think I'm seeing some improvement. The labs seem a little brighter and the spot on the clown loach's nose is almost gone. My fish never stopped eating (little pigs).

Like others, I have observed that some of the fish are more affected than others and some show no symptoms at all. Here is my breakdown (yes, I know I'm overstocked. Can't rehome sick fish!):

Fronstosas - spots on fins, one small swelling on the little one's lip
Blue Dolphin cichlids - white patches under chin
Asian upside down catfish - oblivious to anything and everything!
Yellow labs - all affected around the mouth and gills, fin rot
Albino ruby red peacock - no visible symptoms
OB zebra cichlid - no visible symptoms
Clown loach - white patches on face and sides
Plecos of unidentified species - no visible symptoms
Johannii cichlid - no visible symptoms
Synodontis Eupterus - white patches on eye ridges
Panaque nigrolineatus (Royal pleco) - no visible symptoms

I have not observed any sores yet. I have not seen anything unusual on the glass, either, but I have three good-sized plecos so nothing stays on the glass for long.

Once again, sorry for the hijack, but I hope this information may help someone.

Dino

This just goes to show that no one can know everything about the hobby.
Never having encountered this in my years of fishkeeping, I had no clear idea what it was.

Thanks for your hard work and hope all your fish make it thru the treatment ok.

clinton1621

Update : First off, my thanks go out to Mathas and Mouse Potato for adding their progess on here as well, its always good to compare notes
Thanks also to Dino for checking up and the encouragement , he was actually the first person I PM'd for advice on this Lucy however is another story... lol just kidding, thanks for the support and all the fun ninja times

Well tonight seems about the same as this morning, all is well... no significant changes either way other than a definite increase in activity and playfullness with the rasboras =)

clinton1621

Update : Day 3 of treatment and everyone is doing great, the larger spots on the Gourami are starting to look much better and he seems to be a little more spunky. I finally saw what real planaria look like last night... after the tank lights had been off for a while I used a flashlight to look around in the tank and noticed these tiny white dots that looked like rice (only a lot smaller) crawling around very slowly on the glass... so I looked it up of course, and yep they are planaria for sure. That also confirms that the clear stringy stuff wasnt planaria lol.

Lucy

I'm seriously going to ask Mike to add a rasberry smiley.


I'm glad there's some improvement.
You're all working so hard against this disease and posting your observations and results will serve to help others.

mathas

Day 3 Update:

No noticeable improvement on my end, but no noticeable deterioration, either. The one rasbora still has the growth above its mouth, all other fish look fine, and everyone is acting/eating normally.

I've attached two pictures of the affected rasbora, one from each side of its body.

Attached Images

	columnaris_on_rasbora_1.jpg (48.7 KB, 43 views)
	columnaris_on_rasbora_2.jpg (42.1 KB, 41 views)

MousePotato

Today's update: Bloody Maracyn One killed my cycle!
(See other threads for details and ranting)

However, despite that, the Maracyn-Two seems to be working. All my fish are active and eating and the growth on the clown loach has receded. The little catfish has become more social (he was always hiding before) and my "dizzy blondes" (yellow labs) are chasing each other whole-heartedly.