BenCzDad

Sergeant, my son's clown loach is sick and needs help. Current symptoms include: pale body color, but pectoral fins are bright orange. One cloudy eye, one small white spot near nostril. Prefered orientation (head-to-tail) is vertical with mouth 1/2 inch from surface. Effects of fin rot are present although active fungal growths on his tail or dorsal fin are no longer present. Can swim and rest in a normal horizontal orientation, but spends over 95% of the time in vertical orientation. Respiration is rapid. Appetite is low.

We've been treating with Pimafix (Pimenta Racimosa) and Melafix (Melaleuca) for two weeks. Treatment seemed to help earlier symptoms, but I thought two weeks of treatment would be more than enought.

Problems started six weeks ago when tank heater malfunctioned. Temperature fluctuated between 72F and 84F for 2.5 days. Replaced heater. First symptoms were rapid respiration. A week later began to see mouth fungus. We treated the water with API-branded fungicide and an API branded Tri-Sulfa, both at 1/2-2/3 normal dosage. Treatment helped eliminate mouth fungus, but killed "Ghosty", my son's black ghost knife. We stopped both medicines for fear of killing other fish.

Within a week, Sergeant developed a white spot on the edge of one eye, a small white spot on the adjacent nostril, and multiple small white spots on the tail fin. A fish specialist at a local fish store recommended Melafix. After four days of treament with only Melafix the fungal conditions were worse. We tried one dose of Erythromycin (at 50% strength) and Pimafix and thought we had killed him. He survived and needed some sort of treatment so we began treating with Melafix and Pimafix, which he seemed to tolerate well.

After one week on both medicines he still had fungal growths and the effects of the fin rot were becoming more profound, but he was otherwise acting and eating normally. We left him for 10 days over the Christmas holiday in the care of a neighbor/pet store employee who fed him, administered the Pimafix and Melafix, and changed the water. We were elated that he survived our absence but we were saddened to see the current behavior. The vertical orientation is not a normal behavior for him. He was also a very social fish previously. Now he spends most of his time isolating himself in the top far corner of the tank.

Water stats are good: Nitrate: < 20 ppm, Nitrite: < 0.5 ppm, pH: 7, Carbonate Hardness: 50 ppm, General Hardness: 60 ppm, Ammonia: Negligible. Temperature 77F. 29-gallon tank. Excellent aeration (air stone). Tank mates include seven tetras, one 2.5-inch mollie, and one 7-inch pleco. Water changes weekly and careful not to overfeed. Feed shrimp in the morning, algae flakes at night, and 1/3 of an algae wafer at night for the pleco. Realize the pleco, the mollie, and the clown loach will need a larger tank, and will eventually get one, but if not for Sergeant’s current illness all fish would be very comfortable. We’ve tried hospital tanks in the past with very poor results so we are scared to go that route.

I cannot imagine how Sergeant can survive much longer without a new course of medicines, but I don't know what best to use. I also don't know which of the two medicines we should continue (if any). If anyone can help, we would appreciate the advice.

Thanks,

Ben C and BenCzDad

COBettaCouple

Welcome to FishLore, I hope we can help Sergeant out.

The first thing going on, is that the tank isn't cycled. Probably due to the Fungicide meds that filled the ghost knife. What do you treat your tap water with? I would recommend Prime, it would help protect them from nitrite and ammonia poisoning. I think he might have some of that going on with his hanging near the surface.
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Produc...&N=2004+112994

If you're not using liquid tests, I'd recommend the API master FW kit for more accurate results on ammonia, nitrites and nitrates.
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Produc...&N=2004+113074

How big is the tank? At his current size, your pleco is putting out enough waste to probably need at least a 29-40g tank to handle it.

How much do you do for your partial water changes? 50% now, with 25% every other day would be good for now and help bring the toxins down some until the tank gets cycled.

For meds, I would definitely get some Rid-Fungus and start treating with that asap. Rid-Fungus is safe for the fish but I've found it to be very effective in treating fungus on our fish. It's an organic, herbal liquid that doesn't smell like perfume to say the least, but it would be the best anti-fungal med for that tank.
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Produc...&N=2004+113021

Vita-Chem and Garlic Guard are 2 supplements that can help your fish out and give him a better chance at making it. We add them daily to our tanks just as a regular part of the tank maintenance, just doing half the recommmended weekly dose on Vita-Chem each day.
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Produc...8&N=2004+22763
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Produc...2&N=2004+22763

Good luck with him.

BenCzDad

Thanks for the advice.

We've cycled out out the original API-branded Fungal-Cure already via six 25%-30% water changes since switching from API Fungal Cure to API Pimafix.

We already use Prime with each water change. We will continue to do that. We also use Stressszyme and a pH neutralizer with each water change. Should I stop or cut back on the use of either of these?

We have, and occasionally use, a liquid test kit, but we frequently use API 5 in 1 Test Strips. Once my son learned how overfeeding adversely affects water quality we have always managed to keep toxins well below recommended levels. Typically, water quality only suffers when we are out of town and neighbors (over)feed our fish.

The tank holds 29 gallons. Yes, on the small side for a pleco, a mollie, and a clown loach, but absent of this one problem, we try (and usually manage) to take very good care of the water and the fish.

We will step up the pace on the water changes for now. I was worried about stressing the fish by cleaning the tank more than once (sometimes twice) per week, but I will step up the frequency if the benefits outweigh the costs.

I will try the Rid-Fungus. We are almost out of the Pimafix anyway. Should this be used at full strength or should we reduce the dosage because of the clown loach's sensitivity to chemicals in the water?

I will also try the Vita-Chem and Garlic Guard. Should I adjust the dosages of these to account for the clown loaches sensitivity to chemicals?

Thanks again for taking the time to respond.

GregCzDad

CPVFD325

You dont think this sounds like a case of Ick? Clown Loaches are notorious for being very susceptable to it. With the 12 degree temp fluctuation for a few days would be plenty of stress to bring it out. Just my

jsalemi

Rid-Fungus (like Ich Attack and Prima/Melafix) is an organic mix, not chemical, so it's safe for any fish. Use the full dose recommended by the manufacturer. Same for the vitamins (which Vita-Chem and Garlic Guard are).

COBettaCouple

I wouldn't use pH altering products. We did that a lot at first, but with little effect (hard water) and then we learned that fish can adjust to the local water and usually are adjusted to it when you buy them, so keeping the pH stable is the best and that's mainly accomplished by the same water supply and we were spending extra money that we didn't need to.

The Rid-Fungus is herbal, so it has no harsh chemicals and even with fry in the tank doesn't need adjusted any. Same for the VitaChem. The VitaChem bottle recommends 2 drops per gallon per week, but we do 1 drop per gallon per day and have been doing that for over half a year.

Garlic products, I'm not fully sure of with clown loaches, if it needs reduced. You could hold off on that for now and post a question to double-check with clown loach owners. I believe it would be safe, but best to be 100% sure.

BenCzDad

Thanks again. I bought and started the Rid-Fungus and stopped the Pimafix today. I will be happy to stop the pH neutralizer. I was only able to find the Garlic as an ingredient in our local store's salt water food. I could not find the Vita-Chem either. I will check another store tomorrow and then go the internet/mail order route if I cannot find anything.

I also went over the symptoms (the rapid breathing, the fin & tail rot, the vertical orientation, the cloudy eye and the white spot near the eye and olfactory node) and returned to the conclusion that the fungal infection is perhaps simply a secondary (albeit serious) problem. "Cracker" suggested Ich. I don't think I've yet to see a case of ich, but I do suspect there to be some sort of bacterial infection at play that two weeks of Melafix was able to impact but not wipe out.

For the fin rot and the suspected bacterial infection I started giving Sergeant some Maracide (at 50% recommended dosage) and some TC Tetracycline (at 66% recommended dosage). I know that Maracide should not be administered at full strength to a clown loach but I was not sure about the Tetracycline. I also turned the thermostat up on the tank heater by two degrees and I will repeat that over time until the water temp reaches 83-84F (just in case we are dealing with a case of ich). It's been seven hours since the first application. For the first two hours after administering the new meds, Sergeant came down from the corner of the tank and swam around normally - although he looked pretty ragged. After two hours he went back to the corner in the vertical orientation and stayed there for the following five hours. The good news is that when we fed him a few minutes ago he came down to the center of the tank and ate rather vigorously (algae flakes). Given the effort he is putting out just to pass water through his gills I was very encouraged to see him eating well.

My questions now are:
1. Do you think it was wise to stop the Melafix and start the Tetracycline and the Maricide?
2. If you think the tetracycline is a good idea, do you think I should administer at the full recommended dosage or continue administering at 66% of the recommended dosage?
3. Am I doing too much at one time by changing meds and raising the water temperature?

Thanks again for all your advice.

BenCzDad

COBettaCouple

1. Yes, I would be looking at other options after 7 days with Melafix, so it seems the Melafix had done all that it could.
2. I've never used tetracycline, so I'm not sure on that one, to be honest. We mainly use TriSulfa and Rid-Fungus combined for fin rot and TriSulfa for other problems calling for an antibiotic. (Unless something even stronger was required.)
3. No, if you feel ich is in the tank, you'd want to have the water warm for 2 weeks, but still would need to treat the other problems.

BenCzDad

Two days into the Rid Fungus, Tetracycline, and Maracide and Sergeant is hanging in. He doesn't look great, but he has spent considerably more time swimming around today (vs. spending all of his time nose up in the corner). He is eating well, although the eye cloud leaves him at a disadvantage relative to his buddies when we feed them. Tomorrow we do a 25% water change, administer the second dose of Maracide, and the third doses of Rid Fungus and Tetracycline. I will keep you posted. Thanks again for all your help.

BenCzDad

After a week of Rid Fungus, Maracide, and TC Tetracycline, Sergeant, my son's clown loach, is still not healthy. In fact, after looking like he was making somewhat of a comeback (a few days ago), he now looks as if he is getting sicker. Although I have followed the water change instructions with the medicines (25% every other day), I am thinking that, after a week, we have let too much stuff (i.e. chemicals) accumulate in the water.

A week ago he was pale and thin, so I also began increasing the frequency of his feedings (vitamin-fortified shrimp and vitamin fortified flake food). The additional feedings really brought his color back and he still eats voraciously at every feeding, but the tail rot never really got any better. Also, the eye cloud and the white spots around his eyes nostrils, a and mouth, all of which improved somewhat when we started the new medicines a week ago, are now again getting worse. The rapid respiration is still a problem as well.

This afternoon, I checked on him and found him nose up and almost motionless but breathing near the bottom corner of the tank. He responded, rather vigorously in fact, when I added some food. After eating, however, he began doing what looked like an involuntary roll; something I first noticed yesterday after he would eat.

I just did a 30% water change (at 2:30 PM) and plan to do another either tonight or tomorrow morning (just to cycle the chemicals out of the water). Let me know if this is a good idea and whether I should do it sooner rather than later. Beyond that, I need some advice as to how to treat him.

Thanks in advance for your help.

BenCzDad

Drea

Hi, I've read all the replys so far, and what I was wondering is does your filter have charcoal in it? If it does and the chemicals that have been added, could be re-entering the tank over and over again. If you removed it for treatment (recommended on med instructions) have you tried using new charcoal between meds when doing a water change? I'm not as learned as many others here, so I'm just trying to help

BenCzDad

We did replace the charcoal filter when we stopped the previous course of medicines and we removed it when we started the new medicines. Water quality has remained very good thanks to the water changes every two days.

I am considering a change to an ick medication that treats the water rather than the Maracide, which claims to treat the fish. If the increased temperature accelerates the life cycle of the ick parasites, perhaps I should be treating the water after all. Not sure?

Finally, I don't know if I should
1. Resume the tetracycline once I've cycled the water,
2. Give up on tetracycline and move to a different antibiotic, or
3. Stop any/all antibiotics.
I am thinking that since a normal course of treatment for the tetracycline is four days, I have given it more than enough time (eight days) to do its thing.

Thanks for your suggestions. I greatly appreciate the help.

BenCzDad

Butterfly

After all the different Meds The clown Loach needs some good clean water at a temperature of about 82F. They are very sensitive to meds even organic meds and when having so many used in a short period of time is at a definite disadvantage.
Clown Loaches are very susceptible to ICH but a temperature of 82-84F for 14 days will get rid of ICH on Clowns without meds .
Let us know how he does, they are so sweet when in the peak of health, and a larger tank is in order as soon as possible. Clowns like to be in groups of three or more and can get to be over 12 inches
http://www.loaches.com/species-index...a-macracanthus
Carol

COBettaCouple

Carol's right - he could use a break from the meds and I think maracide and tetracycline at the same time would be too much for him, possibly causing enough stress to allow the fungus to gain ground. After a few days of clean water and just vitamins and garlic suppliments, I would just try Rid-Fungus alone for a few days as it's the easiest on him and it sounds like fungus is the biggest problem he has.

angelfish220

The way he eats so much yet is thin makes me think internal worms. could that be the underlying cause? I dont know, just putting that out there.

Butterfly

Clown loaches are notorious for having internal parasites and heres some recommendations from a Loach site I trust completely.
http://www.loaches.com/Members/shari...ydrochloride-1
But I would worry about the fungus and other issues first. He needs the cleanest water he can get for several days before he is subjected to anymore meds.
carol