armadillo

We just bought this hog-nose puffer on Saturday, and I am worried it's in trouble: he's breathing really fast, and really heavily. He's basically panting like mad. Details in the next post. I would really appreciate your help you guys.

armadillo

So here's the full story:

We've bought a young arrow head puffer (T. suvatii) two days ago and he's heavily gasping/heaving since yesterday night. Right now, he's breathing so fast and heavily, I wonder if he'll make it.

He mainly lies on the (fresh-water sand) substrate, so that's reassuring for hognose puffers (I've read that was their normal behaviour). He is still active and play swith the airwand, which is really fun to watch btw.

Here's all the context info.

Tank size
He's quite young (only about 6cm long, excluding the tail), so we've put him in a 12G long. We're planning our upgrade to a 20G.

Cycling:
It's a brand new tank (we hadn't planned on getting him, and as you know, they're a catch so we took him in although we had no cycled tank). To compensate for that, the tank is heavily filtrated (although not too much current): there's the filter that came with the tank + a filter that was in use in another tank of ours (to precipitate cycling) + an external filter. We've also put in a couple of panty-hose bags with established gravel at opposite ends of the tank, to help with the cycling. We're testing the water daily and we'll do a 50% water change at the slightest trace of ammonia/nitrite. We've had him two days, with one 50% water change this morning (although there was under 15 nitrates, and no n'ite/a'nia). We've consciously put water back in that's the same temp as the tank water, so I don't think the problem is temp difference.

PH, temp and conditionner
PH is 8.0 and tank temp was 24C according to the thermometer, but felt really cold to the touch. I have just increased the thermostat a couple of degrees I think it's about 26C now, but I have done this after we noticed the symptoms.

We condition the water with EasyLife Liquid Filter, which I believe is only available in Europe. I have also mixed a couple of drops of Vitachem to his new water since I've noticed his problem.

Other symptoms
He's got some light finrot, which I think is fungal but it's difficult to tell. The finrot has gotten worse since yesterday, but still not dramatic.

Also, when he plays in the bubble wand, he 'nearly' flashes, in that he behaves like a dog that shakes water off itself once in a while, but it's not as sudden as a proper flash spasm. So I don't actually know whether he's itching or just playing.

Things I suspected
The two cut panty-hoses holding the substrate: could it be releasing residue of washing powder used to clean the panty hoses when they were still used as clothing?

My husband left the plants with the pots and cotton wool (which I am against, but he insists on that). Could it be some toxin that's released by the plastic pot or cotton?

Could it be the temperature was too low and he was weakened by the stress of moving and got an infection?

Another possibility is that he is in fact not a fresh water puffer, but I do not think that is the case, as every reference we check confirms that T. suvatii are 100% freshwater.


Hope you guys can help. Sorry about the long post, but Thijs will be so disappointed if something happens to his new fish. He went out and spent loads of money on a new tank, plants, a really big pump, and there's the fish itself, which is really difficult ot find. It's not just about the money of course. He really wanted to take good care of it and he's now really worried.

COBettaCouple

hmm.. i would say pick up some Rid-Fungus, but I don't know if you can get it there. It treats fungal conditions even for scaleless fish. perhaps there is an herbal anti-fungal med available there?

I wish i was more familiar with that fish, but i wonder if he has skin flukes:
Sluggishness, flashing, spider web lesions on skin, color loss, reddened fins, drooping fins, fin damage.
or ulcers:Sluggishness, lack of appetite, open sores with red edges, possible fin rot.

armadillo

Mmmm. No, I don't think so. It's getting really bad now. I've just heard a lot of splashing and that was him trying to get out of the water. He basically looks like he's in a lot of pain. I wonder if it could be internal parasites?

So the symptoms are (excluding finrot) really heavy panting, and occasional flashing. It looks like he's in pain. I'll try to find signs of lesion.

Sabi

I'm so sorry about this Anne! heres something i found maybe it'l help, apparently they are sensitive fish. You cant put him in a cycled tank till his is cycled?
Aqa predator

armadillo

I tried to unplug each of his appliances one by one to see whether it could have been an electromagnetic field that I can't feel but that hurts him, but he shows no difference. I now wonder if it could be the substrate. I am going to try to put him in the hospital tank to see if he is better there.

I rinsed the sand in three pans, and I wonder if they were maybe not rinsed properly, and some soap somehow got sucked up by the sand?

Any other known causes of heavy breathing? I can't think of anything but asphyxia and pain.

armadillo

Thanks so much, Sabi. We'd read that really useful link. Actually, it's a favorite.

Right now there's no ammonia or nitrite, and hardly any nitrates, so I can't imagine what could be causing this. It's sure not ideal to have him in an uncycled tank, but we're not going to even get him to go through it at this rate.

armadillo

We've been researching for I don't know how long and I don't see a disease the corresponds to panting and scratching. This is what we have narrowed it down to:

- gill flukes (but we can't see the flukes)
- velvet (but the patch on his fin doesn't look like oodinium)

Dino, Ross? Any idea?

Dino

Darken the tank/room.

Can you see what the gills look like? Are they darker/paler than other fish?
Do they appear frayed?

armadillo

Thanks, Dino. Why darken the tank? In case it's Oodinium? We're switching the light off now, and we'll add a side lamp for during the day, but I am curious about your diagnosis.

I can see the gills clearly as he's heaving so badly so he's really opening them wide: the gills themselves are what seem to be the normal colour (meaty-red), and the gill-covering skin outside is the same colour as rest of the fish. I looked with a magnifying glass and I do not detect any fraying.

One noteworthy point is also that we've seen one single white dot on the inside of one of his gills. The 'dot' was larger than the normal ich one.

armadillo

OK, he's still breathing hard this morning, but I think maybe not so hard, although it could be my imagination. He is still eating.

I am definitely starting to see some ich spots. I wonder how safe it is to use some salt (he's scaleless and purely FW). Maybe I'll just do a large water change to get rid of the other meds, increase the temp to 28C, and use ich medication.

Sabi

So its ich? But how can that affect his breathing?
Whats the highest temp they take? I raised mine to 84-86F when ich broke out. Best of luck i'm keeping tabs here!

Dino

The lessened light is to calm the fish.

I would raise the temp, rather than add salt.

armadillo

We found some ich on his gills. I also think it's a multiple infection.

Status last night: Temp raised, lights out, ich meds in (compatible with broad spectrum meds used). Breathing still labored although slower. Seemingly more out of exhaustion than improvement. He also started showing scattered fungus here and there on his body. Also, his fins were badly clamped (sign of pain, right?)

Status this morning: Breathing eased, still some ich but not worse than yesterday. Can't see too much fungus but fins still clamped.

armadillo

Thanks, Dino. That's what I thought too about the salt. That's what we did (increased temp), + some ich meds.

Oh I see about the light. I'd read that columnaris (not oodinium like I was saying earlier) thrived on light, and columnaris was one of the short-listed diagnoses we ended up with.

That's very good to know about the light, thanks.

Dino

Glad to be of service.

0morrokh

EDIT: Never mind I posted this before I saw there was a second page in the thread.

It sounds like it could be some sort of gill parasite, or else is it possible some sort of chemicals got in the water? Parasites can be treated with salt baths and anti-parasite meds (salt would get rid of ich too). Just make sure puffers can tolerate salt, I know they can be pretty sensitive. The ich and finrot are probably completely separate infections. You may need to treat wih antibiotics for the finrot. Jacking up the temp would be a good idea too for both the ich and healing the fins faster. Did they have him in pretty bad conditions at the store?

armadillo

Actually he's way better now. I'll check again but last I looked the fungus was gone, the ich was receding and the breathing was vastly improved (next to normal). I think we 'may' just about reach out of the wood territory. Fingers crossed.

I think he was weakened by the stress of the move (he had to stay in his bag for ages as we had to put together the set-up. We'd given him a big bag with lots of water, but still), and got ich. We saw some ich on his gills, which would explain the breathing difficulties. He then got himself a fungus infection as secondary infection. As soon as we started treating for ich, his breathing started to get better.

I really hope he's OK.