capekate

Hello all...
I am trying to figure out what is wrong with my tiger barb. He has been listless and sort of drifting around the tank with lack of energy. So often I think thats the end of him when he is laying sideways on the bottom, but he continues to breathe. then will move around alittle bit more and sink down as if it is about to die. I checked my water perimeters and the ammonia is .25; the nitrate is over 10 almost at 20. Which i know is high, and the nitrite is at zero. I did almost a 50% water change hoping that would help him. I lost a tiger barb a few days ago as well, and now only have one left. The well one goes up to the sick one as if to nodge it along and the sick barb will try to swim around before sinking weakly. It is so sad to watch and I dont know what to do for it, I wish I knew why the tiger barbs have died, along with all my rainbow platy a week ago. The serpae tetras are all fine, the two angels are fine. I have seen the angel ram the barb before and thought that may be the cause of this problem. But i am just loosing too many fish and just dont know whats going on. My tank is cycled, and the water is very clear with only diatoms on the plants and decoration. Can anyone advise me on what can be going on here? I would like to bring more tiger barbs in the tank for that lonely tiger barb that will be left, but I dont want to do it now if there is a disease in the tank.
Please advise on what I should be doing? thanks, kate

capekate

update: that was quick...
'spot' the tiger barb died. I put him inthe net at the top of the tank, hoping that near the surface he may find better water. IF that was the problem. He just didnt make it. I have used maracyn in the water a few weeks ago for the fungus on one of the angels. I also used the jungle lab fungus clear about three times. I wonder if the meds could have affected him. I checked the gills and they were not red. Still wondering if it was a nitrate poisening that got him or something else. there are no marks on the body, no ick, no fungus...clear eyes, no pop eye. Its so sad.., Im doing everything I need to do for the tank, using prime, stress zyme, used the meds as needed, many water changes.The water temp is around 77*. I just dont know what can be causing this fish die off. Its so frustrating...Seems that the only constant thing in my tanks are the bettas that are all doing so well.

sgould

Sorry about the trouble you are having.

Nitrate of 10-20 is not inordinately high...not low, but definately not high enough that tiger barbs should be dying from it as they are pretty tough. The ammonia reading concerns me a bit as it seems to indicate that your tank is not fully cycled, or is experiencing a mini cycle for some reason. .25 ammonia should also be surviveable for a tiger, but it is still something you should be keeping an eye on. There are 2 other things you mentioned that tickle at my brain a little bit, but I can not say for sure that either are definately the culprit...I am hoping someone else can chime in and either confirm or rule out. The first is the tiger getting rammed. It is possible that if the angel is attacking the tigers they have been hurt internally and it is killing them. Swim bladders can be damaged from ramming, for example, and I am sure other injuries are possible as well. The other thing that caught my eye is the use of several chemicals in the tank. If your tank is currently free from disease, I would get some AC in your filter to eliminate any residual meds/chemicals. Unless you are treating a specific illness, the only chemical you want in there is water conditioner when you do water changes. Other than that, the less chemicals the better. Incidentally, if I am not mistaken it is possible that meds could interfere with your bacteria, which might explain your ammonia reading.

sirdarksol

That sucks.
One more question. How old are your fish? Did you get a number of them at the same time? Is it possible that they were getting old and the recent (minor) increase in pollution in their water was just too much stress?

COBettaCouple

you know, sgould brings up a very interesting point about the 2 angels in that tank. I'd watch them, see if they seem to have 'buddied-up' and how the other fish act around them. It seems to be rather common for a pair of angels to buddy up and one by one take out all the other fish, even other angels. Certainly, Spot sounds like he had bad swim bladder problems and that could have been the result of injury like sgould said.

Actually, I just thought of a question - did all the rainbow platys go first, THEN the tiger barbs starting going down? If the answer is yes, then i think that would confirm even without observation that the angels are taking out the fish one group at a time. The surviving fish may need to have a separator put up or a witness relocation program.

It does sound like you're taking good care of them and it would be exceptionally strange for them to just start dying off like that, especially with no major changes in water chemistry.. the only other explanation that i can think of would be a contagious disease, but i'd think you would have seen some common sign of it in every fish that has been lost.

The AC is a great idea too and you might want to use: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Produc...&N=2004+113805 to knock out some ammonia while you're at it.

capekate

good morning
and thank you all for your advice. Giving it some thought...
1) the tetras, I bought about three months ago. I just lost another one this am. Which was swimming around just fine when I went to bed. The only physical marks that I could note, was that this particular tetra was loosing its body color and getting pale. any ideas on what could cause this? I also noticed a bump near the gill that looks like a wart. round... and under the skin.
2) the ammonia in the water could have resulted from adding 5 fish to the tank alittle more than two weeks ago( the rainbow playts) . and then 3 more a week ago today ( the tiger barbs).My PH is 6.4 Possibly causing mini cycles.
3) jungle lab fungus clear, notes that the AC does not have to be taken out of the tank if it is more than 6 days old. And i still have the AC in the filter. I have not changed any of the filter media since I started the tank in march. Should I be doing this?
Should I take out the AC bag and put a new one in now?
4) its very possible that the angels have buddied up and attacking the different species one at a time. First all the 2 cory cats died within days of buying them. Then all five of the rainbow platy died within a week or so of getting them. Now two tiger barbs, with only 3 serpea tetras, one tiger barb and the two angels remaining in the tank.l
Its very frustrating and sad to see these fish deaths accuring all the time. I use prime in the water with the water changes and have started using the stress zyme just a few weeks ago. Could the stress zyme be harmful somehow to the fish?
thanks for all your help folks... this is getting me down.. and I dont want to give up on my tanks. I will be getting a 55 g tank probubly next saturday and really want to clear up whatever it is that im doing wrong before I start another tank and get more expensive fish in there.

armadillo

Hi Capekate.

I am sorry about all your fish losses. It sounds awful.

Could some of the fish deaths be related to the acclimation method? As you mentionned that a lot of them died in the first week, I wonder if it could be linked? I read these great articles on acclimation which helped me much (http://saltaquarium.about.com/librar.../aa091597a.htm). Of course I have no idea if that's what it is, especially as it sounds like the tiger barb was not that new, but it might help explain the new arrivals' death rates.

Everyone: Would you discorage getting more than one angel, then, in case they do buddy up and start bullying other tank mates? Can an angel be happy on its own?

capekate

thank you for the link... I will read up on it. I believe I have done the right thing in the acclimation process, but who knows? Im open to all suggestions as this has truly baffled me!

capekate

Also....
my other thought is this: Im wondering, if it is the angels attacking the fish, Im wondering if maybe moving the remainder of the fish, the three small tetra serpea and the one last remainning tiger barb over to the ten gal tank where there are three long fin black skirt tetra living? If anything but a defense against the attacks? til i can get down to the fish store and by a divider for the 29g tank? Or would I be openning up another can of worms by this method of thought?
thanks, kate

sirdarksol

Did a little (very little) research on Angels. If they've begun mating, that could be why they are so belligerent right now. I'm amazed that the Cories would go. They're not even in the Angels' level of the tank. It seems like something strange is happening.
Of course, you could just have a pair of serial killer Angelfish.
If tiger barbs are fin nippers, I wouldn't put them in with the black skirt tetra. It would just be changing who's getting picked on.

COBettaCouple

After a week (or 2 if you get the good stuff), the AC is worthless and can release what it's captured back into the water. by now though, that AC is probably totally inert and doing nothing.

Ammonia poisioning is unlikely to affect one group at a time, yes, the cats would go first, but then it would be an assortment of the others.

Do the fish that die also get very thin and/or curved in the spine?

Acclimation problems also seem unlikely, given the order of groups going down. It really sounds like the angels are the most likely cause at this point. If they are moving the fish to their own tank or putting in a divider in the 29g would be the prudent thing to do.

capekate

*thanks ... I have not noticed any fin nipping problems with the three tigers that I had. With the last one in the tank, it seems to have been adopted by the serpae tetras. and swims around with them now. Im sure the tetras may end up being fin nippers tho if i put them in with the other black skirt tetras. I would like to just keep the angels by themselves for awhile and see if that works out. But may just go ahead and wait til i can get to the store for that divider. this way they wont have to leave the tank they are accustomed to. And possibly the ten g tank with the three black skirt tetras is at its quota.
thanks for your help! ~ kate

capekate

I know that alot of folks dont even use AC in their tanks, thinking that its not necessary. I will pick up another packet of ac at the store when I go and pick up the divider.
The tetra that died, the one that lost its color, was thinning. But no curvature of the spine. The other fish did not get thin tho.What could have caused it to loose its color and go so pale? I know that when a fish is stressed it will loose its color, but this was a true pale loss of color all the time.
One of the angels that I call althea ( in case it ends up being a male, i will call it al) is very friendly towards me. When i sit at the chair near the tank, it follows me and comes to the corner where it can watch me. Its a very friendly fish. BUT tho i have seen it ram a fish, most times I do not see that happen. Can it be smart enough not to do that when I am around and watching? Is this something that may be happening at night? The other angel, Marble, can care less about me and was sick for awhile with the body fungus but doing fine now and growing back its fins. It kept its fins clamped for so long where althea would keep her fins high. The jungle lab fungus clear really worked for Marble.
Anyway... will just have to get the divider... some AC today and see what happens. And hope the rest will make it til then.
thanks, ~ kate

COBettaCouple

well, fish TB doesn't sound like the killer then.. i don't know firsthand about angels, but i know our bettas and platys like to do things when they think we aren't looking that they won't when we are.

neon tetra disease could be the culprit in that last tetra dying, was his swimming errratic? were there any gold or white spots on him?

capekate

well there wernt any gold 'spots' on it, tho there seemed to be a lighter patch of a gold color. I am adding a photo of him for you to see. Im hoping i do it right, as im still using the laptop! uggh...

Attached Images

fish photos 001.jpg (90.5 KB, 34 views)

COBettaCouple

yea, i think you can rule out velvet as well now.

capekate

Im trying to upload a video of the tank and fish to youtube so that you can see the behavior of the remaining fish and tank. Could the amount of diatoms in the water cause a problem? There is alot of it on the plant decorations and I am continually washing them off.
For some reason, i cant seem to upload the video im not used to the laptop and it comes up as an 'avi' file?
thanks, kate

capekate

Well i managed to upload the new fille to youtube and now it is processing the file. When that is done I will link you to the video there.
~ kate