Igniseus

Hi all, having a bit of a fish problem

Tank size: 16G
pH: Unknown but can get if required
ammonia: 0-0.25
nitrite: 0
nitrate: 0-10
kH: Unknown but can get if required
gH:Unknown but can get if required
tank temp: 26C

Fish Symptoms:
1 x Bengal Loach (2 week old): Began with occasional rubbing against things as if it had an itch. Then it started to play dead, and would just lay on the bottom for hours and hours, nothing seemed to make it move. Finally this morning found it moving a bit, slowing move up and around the back wall, doing this for ages. When scared it drops back to the floor and plays dead for ages. He seems to have gone very pale over the last few days. Doesn't seem to be interested in food anymore.

6 x Zebra and Long Finned Golden Danios (2-4 week old): Seemed normal during the stage where the loach was scratching himself, but today i found them all squished and piled on top of each other right in a corner behind a plant, and currently (with the lights off, i.e. night time mode) they are hiding in the top corners of the tank, behind teh filter, and in other random areas and just hoving there.

Volume and Frequency of water changes: Usually daily as its a new tank/fish, between 15-60%.

Chemical Additives or Media in your tank: Seachem Prime, and small amount of Tetra EasyBalance.

Tank inhabitants:
1x Bengal Loach
3x Zebra Danio
3x Long Finned Gold Danios

Recent additions to your tank: Swapped the decoration around a couple of times since introduction of fish, added an external filter yesterday which is running along side the internal until its cycled.

Exposure to chemicals: None?

Tank Age: 7ish Weeks.

Location: England

Digital photo: Only have a camera phone but if you would like a few (poor quality) photo's i will get some.

Thanks everyone!

sirdarksol

Temperature: Good.
Nitrate + Nitrite: Good, good.
kH + gH: Unlikely to be needed for the current residents of the aquarium.
Water Changes: Excellent. May be the reason your fish have survived whatever is affecting them so far.
Ammonia: If it's zero, good. If not, not good. Fish can't handle any ammonia. The stuff is just toxic. The other numbers suggest that your ammonia is probably 0. I'm guessing you're just having problems reading the color. Are you using a liquid test kit, or the paper strips?
pH: Probably should check, just on the off chance that it's out there. It could be the reason the loach was affected first. Danios are notoriously adaptable to a wide range of water parameters.

Scratching on the tank (usually) means parasites (Ich seems to be a possibility, check this page outhttp://www.fishlore.com/aquariummaga...sh-disease.htm). The danios may be clustering while trying to hide from whatever is causing them discomfort. I know some loaches (clown, for example) play dead, scaring the tar out of their owners, but this sounds excessive.
I'm not one to suggest medication quickly, but it sounds like your loach needs help now, so I would find a parasite remedy (if someone else could suggest one, I know nothing about these. I've never had to medicate for parasites) and treat the tank. Be prepared for the tank to go back through the cycle. Many meds kill off the nitrifying bacteria.
Also, you may want to raise the temperature of the tank to around 82 degrees Fahrenheit (sorry, too lazy to go to a conversion page. I think that will be around 27C) over the course of a couple of hours. If it's ich, this will disrupt the cycle of the parasites' maturation.

Just to be sure I haven't missed something, however, does it appear that the danios are gulping at the surface? What kind of filter do you have?

Let's see if someone else who has seen ich firsthand can come in here and confirm or deny a diagnosis and give some better information.

Good luck and, if I haven't seen you around before, welcome to fishlore.

Igniseus

pH appears to be about 6.4-6.8, hard to tell really.

Danio's aren't gulping at the surface, though 1 or 2 may have been last night when the lights were off and they were hiding in the corner.

Filters:
Original (still in use): http://www.seapets.co.uk/product-det...egory/568.html
Installed yesterday: http://www.seapets.co.uk/product-det...egory/569.html

Also to add, ive just switched on the tank light, and the danios sort of appear to be acting normal, though the loach is acting dead again by the ship.

Thanks

Igniseus

Heres a photo of my loach:

Igniseus

I retested my ammonia and its definitely 0 at the moment. Is there anything i can do for my fishes? Would it be safe to put some general anti-parasite and anti-fungal medicine in? I'm sure there's something wrong with them, the loach is refusing to move again to, he's just laid upside down in the most hidden spot, rapidly breathing.

Igniseus

My Danio's seem fine now i think, but my loach is just getting pushed around the tank by the current, he doesn't seem to be able to swim at all, though he is flapping his fins a bit. He's just getting pushed into obstacles or the glass, he doesn't even align himself and is just sitting wherever he gets pushed into and stuck until he gets free.

Anyone have any ideas?

sirdarksol

I don't see any white spots, but the rest of the descriptions you gave sound a lot like ich.

I don't want to tell you "yes, it is absolutely safe to put a general treatment in the tank," but given the circumstances you've told me (pH is pretty good, given the range you listed), I would personally be treating the tank. Ich is not something you want to mess with. I think there are a dozen different ich remedies out there, so you should be able to find some. If you're lucky enough to have a fish store (not a chain pet store with a fish section, though) nearby, ask the employees what they would recommend for ich.

And please, if anyone has advice contradicting mine, speak up. As I've said, I've never actually had fish with parasites, so I'm not positive about any of this. It's mostly info gleaned from Fishlore combined with educated guesses.

Igniseus

That is exactly what my loach is doing.

Drea

Is the tank in the video, yours?

susitna-flower

Hi Igniseus, sorry you are having problems with your tank.

A couple of questions. Did you cycle the tank before adding fish? I ask because you said the tank has been running for 7 weeks, and the fish have been in between 2 and 4 weeks.

The test results show that the tank ISN'T cycled. If you can get Bio-Spira it will help in speeding up the cycle, as it contains the necessary bacteria and is really the only commercial product that makes it safe to add fish to an uncycled tank.

What kind of test equipment are you using? Many are NOT reliable. Most here at fishlore recommend the API Master test kit. The first thing would be to make sure the tests are accurate. If you only have test strips, you might want to take a water sample to your LFS and have them check it. If you do this write down WHAT the results are, don't let them just tell you they are "good".

Next I can only say that ANY stress, like toxic levels of ammonia or nitrite can bring on an attack of ick. You may be facing several problems at once. Raising the temp just over 82f would be a start, next 25-50% water changes every day till your ammonia and nitrite go down to 0 and nitrates are between 5-10 for sure.... This can take weeks, if you don't use Bio-Spira!

The picture of your loach next to the ship looks like his gills are red, which is an indication of ammonia problems. This is why I am concerned your tests are not reading true.

If the U-tube video is your tank, and it is only 16 gallons, you are over stocked. I assume you just used this video to show something LIKE what your fish is doing, not that it is your tank.......Good Luck and keep us up to date.

Barbrella

Changing up to 60% of the water daily in a new tank is not a good idea, as you could be causing mini-cycles that way.

If you've had ammonia readings while the fish have been in the tank, that could be the loach's problem.

Are you using dip sticks to test the water, or liquid testers?

Igniseus

I have ended the loach's life now anyway, he was struggling so much and in such a state, he had totally lost it behind all hope. Its a sad end, but i'd rather him not suffered any longer.

Now i just need to sort the tank/danios out as they are definately not right. They are hiding too much even though my ammonia and nitrite are 0 and nitrate <10, and their body looks wierd, hard to describe.

I've picked up some anti-slime and velvet (says cures fluke too), though im not using it until someone can give me a go-ahead. The back states its for flicking and rubbing against objects, which my loach did alot and my danios may do but not much. All fish had rapid gill movement i think (my first fish so hard to compare). Danios hang near surface sometimes (they either hide in the corner at the surface or very bottom, usually at top behind filter). They possibly have red skin. And as for the slime and velvet appearance, im not sure but their skin has definitely changed sine several days ago.

I've also picked up anti internal bacteria. the symptoms here are also showing in my fish, such as loss of colour, listless, and then destruction of central nervous system which is what just happened to my loach i think.

But which should i try first.....anti slime/velvet/fluke or anti internal bacteria?

Thanks

Lucy

[quote=Igniseus;304529]
Tank size: 16G
pH: Unknown but can get if required
ammonia: 0-0.25
nitrite: 0
nitrate: 0-10
kH: Unknown but can get if required
gH:Unknown but can get if required
tank temp: 26C[quote]


[quote=susitna-flower;304650]
The test results show that the tank ISN'T cycled. If you can get Bio-Spira it will help in speeding up the cycle, as it contains the necessary bacteria and is really the only commercial product that makes it safe to add fish to an uncycled tank.[quote]


I'm sorry to intrude on this topic, but what about Igniseus's results indicate his tank is not cyled?
I understand ammonia needs to be 0, but I thought I read somewhere (here?) that nitrates are acceptable at <20.
I'm not questioning your knowledge, only trying to learn. I am so new to all this. Thank you

Lucy

susitna-flower

[quote=Lucy;304739][quote=Igniseus;304529]
Tank size: 16G
pH: Unknown but can get if required
ammonia: 0-0.25
nitrite: 0
nitrate: 0-10
kH: Unknown but can get if required
gH:Unknown but can get if required
tank temp: 26C[quote]


[quote=susitna-flower;304650]
The test results show that the tank ISN'T cycled. If you can get Bio-Spira it will help in speeding up the cycle, as it contains the necessary bacteria and is really the only commercial product that makes it safe to add fish to an uncycled tank.No problem. I said that for several reasons.
#1, unless the tank has been running with fish or some kind of cycling process for the first few weeks, it didn't start its cycle until the fish were added. That is why I asked the question.
#2, in the original post it showed the ammonia was .25, and the nitrite 0, and the nitrate somewhere between 0 and 10.

If you have the API Master kit, you will know if nitrates are 0, or between 0 and 5, or between 5 and 10...... There is no jumping from 0 to 10 without the tank still being in the cycle process, especially with ANY ammonia showing. The symptoms the fish are showing indicates ammonia problems, and without seeing any other signs of fungus, ick or other symptoms, the first line of defence is always water changes, and not putting medication in the whole tank, which WILL likely cause the tank to have to go through the cycle all over again.

As for the notion that changing 60% of your water will cause the tank to go into a mini cycle is not valid. You have to do it slowly, to not stress the fish, ie., say 25%, then 25%, then 25%, but since the bacteria don't "live" in the water, but are found in the gravel, on decorations, in the filter, and on the glass, simply changing water doesn't rid your tank of the bacteria.

The first post indicates LOTS of disruption of the decorations, and filteration, which also tells me the tank isn't cycled.

Now, Igniseus, we all have had similar things happen, and I really do want you to realize that this is a learning experience and you probably have enough heart ache without feeling , beat up! So thats not what I want to do, just help you through.

Keep testing your water, Danios are tough, and one of the fish that can survive in a cycling tank. IF they start showing any visable signs beyond what you have described, post them. I would suggest until that time, maybe raise your temp to 82, and keep testing, and waterchanges.

sirdarksol

I disagree with a few statements you've made, Susitna.
First of all, not everybody can easily read the charts for the API test kit. For example, the lighting in my house, combined with color schemes (that were not my choice) add either a reddish or greenish tint to everything in my house, meaning that if I don't take care to go outside and read the vial against a piece of paper, I end up seeing colors that aren't there. In my living room, I can easily read a 0 as a 10.
Second, I've never heard of "scratching" as a symptom of ammonia poisoning.
Third, I don't see very many symptoms of ammonia poisoning. None of the fish seem to be gasping at the surface, just hanging out there, according to the statements we've seen. The loach may have inflamed gills, but the angle we're seeing him at could also just be a shot at the inside of the gill. I definitely didn't see any hemorrhages on the loach's skin (the only time I've seen a fish laying on the bottom of the tank from ammonia poisoning, blood vessels had ruptured all over just under the scales)

Now, I'm not saying that you're wrong about the diagnosis, or that I'm right. In fact, there are some things that you've said that make sense, like the disruption in the tank (although I don't consider the addition of another filter to be a disruption, changing the other stuff around is). I also had not noticed that, while the tank was 7 weeks old, the fish had been in it from 2 to 4 weeks. I just don't think that the case is as obvious as you've stated.
If it is, that's great, because it will be easier to deal with in the long run, especially since danios are such hardy little buggers.

Perhaps the easiest response for this would be to re-do the ammonia and nitrate tests. View them in optimal lighting, with an opaque sheet of paper as the background.
I just don't see any way for there to be a 10 nitrate reading without any nitrites at all.

Another thing to check is to make sure you aren't using a Nessler-type kit to test for ammonia. Prime creates a false reading in these tests.