Zman

Hello all,
This is my first post here. I own a betta named Speedy. I've had him for 3 years, and he's been care free, till now. He suddenly lost his top fin and developed a large swollen area thats bleeds whenever I change his water. It doesn't look like photos of ick I've seen. The local fish store suggested tank salt, an antibiotic, and a product called Freshwater TLC ( supposedly friendly bacteria). All this stuff seems to make his water get cloudy within a day. They suggested I was guilty of overcleaning his tank, and removing all the good bacteria. Perhaps its true, but as of now, Speedy only hangs out on the bottom and rarely eats. Any suggestions. I've attached photos of his malady.

Rob

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armadillo

Does he live in an unheated fish bowl there on the picture, or is that just a temporary hospital tank?

Well if you change the water all the time, then it doesn't matter that you kill the good bacteria, as there seems to be no filter or gravel for the bacteria to live on anyway. What I mean is that if your tank has not cycled (that's what we call it when a bacterial colony is established), then you just need to do very regular water changes, which is exactly what your'e doing. So I don't think you're guilty of overcleaning, on the contrary, in such a small pot, it's a necessity. If you're interested in this whole good bacteria/cycling business, we have an article in the beginner's section that should help.

What do you treat the water with before putting it back in? Do you use some sort of a conditioner? This is unrelated to his disease I think, as you've had him under the same conditions for 3 years, but untreated tap water can be toxic. As you dont' mention a conditionner, perhaps that's worth mentionning. I'd recommend Prime.

His fins dropping sound like typical finrot symptoms, judging by all the posts flying by on the subject with exactly the same description, so am pretty sure. If you have a look in the betta section, I am pretty sure there was 2 threads going on about finrot yesterday. I am sure they are full of good advice as to what medication to get. Finrot is super common with betta it seems, judging by the posts always flying by on the subject, so you were very lucky not to have had it so far.

3 years is pretty old for a betta. I hear that's pretty much their life expectancy.

I don't know the product you mention (TLC), but if it was referred to you as something to add friendly bacteria, don't use it. It'll be one of these cycling products that have nothing to do with curing the fish. Sometimes fish stores are really annoying like that, pushing any product that takes their fancy.

Zman

Thanks for your advice. You are correct in that I use a small, roughly 1 liter container. It is unheated. I change the water every 2 days, and clean off the rocks with soap and water. I fill his bowl with tap water conditioned with a product called Betta pus bowl conditioner. This has been my system for 3 years, till this incident. The bleeding at the injury site when the water is changed is particularly distressing. I already put in the "good bacteria" product, and other medications, and don't want to stress out the fish by changing his water again. But I will if its the best thing to do. The clerk told me that Betta can live much longer than 3 years if they are cared for properly. Don't know if thats true or not, I'm pretty much an amateur.

armadillo

I understand that it's very distressing. Am sorry your little guy is going through this. This forum has a lot of betta addicts that are going to butt in soon I hope, then you'll get lots of experienced advice.

You seem to really love your fish and to be suffering from fish store misinformation. The bleeding indeed must be heartbreaking.

It's just such a shame it took 3 years before you came across this site. Here is its: basically, bettas need much more space to move about and explore than what your little guy has, but am sure you didnt' know that, and am sure it's not what's getting to him after 3 years. If he makes it, though, please move him to a heated, filtered tank with a piece of decoration like a bridge or something (smooth, so his fins don't get torn), and with a volume of at least 5G? You'll see him swim around and it'll be a joy to see. The subject of cramped tank size for betta regularly creates quite a lot of stir on this forum. It really doesn't matter what the fish store tells you, honestly, you wouldn't believe the stuff they come up with. It is difficult to believe, but you know more about caring for your betta than that clerk guy. All he sees, is bettas passing hands for a week or so. He doesn't have experience in the long-term care for one. This forum is full of anecdotes with the rubbish some stores are spreading, resulting in neglected fish because the owner's kept in the dark about their true needs.

Back to the disease:

- I'll say it again to reassure: finrot seems to be really common with betta and loads of people here are experiencing it and am hoping will intervene soon to tell you precisely what products they use and what they do.
- 'Good bacteria' product: Oh look I dont' think the good bacteria product should hurt the fish if it says on the bottle that it can be used with fish, but if you are going to do a partial water change, then good, as that stuff is not going to help right now
- Do you know the pH of your water? If it's above 7.0, then you need to underdose any product that you give (I am talking of the good bacteria stuff and the finrot meds). If you've given the exact dose and your pH is high, then you'll need to do a water change anyway
- Sick betta like the temperature higher, so you'll need to get a heater and I doubt one will fit in your tank
- I don't kow what that ulcer is on him. Could it be excess fatty tissue from lack of exercise? I heard this was a common problem with bettas in constricted spaces.
-We would need to know the name of the meds you've been using?

For some reason and despite his cramped conditions, he's hold on 3 years, and that seems to be on the high side unless am very much mistaken. I'd recently posted the betta lifespan question on the forum and was answered around 3 years so you're doing alright, and it's not due to excessive cleaning, on the contrary. Anything less and he'd probably not have survived. Hopefully, he'll live longer to see his new shiny tank which we'll give you loads of help with when you set it up!

mlinden84

Soap should never be used to clean anything in the fishtank. If you just use water and a little elbow grease you can get the rocks clean.

armadillo

Ooooh, I hadn't read that bit about the soap. Indeed, not a good idea. They don't need to be cleaned, though, just rinsed off with water from your tank.

Tom

In all honesty, it loooks like fin rot to me. If someone else confirms it, buy and add some BettaFix, it helps with fin rot and other diseases.
Tom

Zman

Thanks. Yeah, guilty as charged on the soap thing. I've never tested his water. I just changed it often, and assumed the bowl conditioner did the rest. I guess I'm lucky he's survived for 3 years.

Zman

One of the 3 products the clerk at the fish store recommended was Maracyn for Fin Rot, Popeye, and "Body Fungus". I added a tiny sliver of one tablet, since one tablet treats 10 gallons. Speedy's bowl holds a little more than 4 cups. And Tom, I'm sure you are right that its some form of Fin Rot, since the whole fin is gone. But I haven't come across that type of swelling with bleeding in any of the online photo's I've seen about Fin Rot.

I realize I come off as a complete dork on this forum. I inherited this fish from my wife's 1st grade class. She brought it home after the school year, with some of the instructions that she had looked up for the kids. It became my project to keep the cat away from it, and I took a liking to the little guy. It wasn't broke, so I never sought to fix it. Till now.

COBettaCouple

if possible, i'd move him to a heated tank, maybe a little 2.5g minbow kit like they sell at wallyworld.
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Produc...&N=2004+113767 - this is our fav. heater and the 50w will do fine in a 2.5g minibow tank.

but either way, i'd get the following products for him:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Produc...8&N=2004+22763 - add DAILY to his water.. it will look cloudy but clear in a filtered tank in a little while. i'm not sure how long until it would clear in a bowl. these vitamins are the best stuff that i've found yet for helping prompt regrowth and strengthen a betta's basic health.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Produc...&N=2004+112994
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Produc...&N=2004+112993 - use the recommended dose of both to treat the water. we treat all our water with both the Prime and the NovAqua+. The Prime locks up the ammonia, nitrites and nitrates and the Novaqua+ adds more vitamins and system boost for the fish.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Produc...&N=2004+113021 - Triple Sulfa is probably the best bet for him as far as antibiotics go. There is a product call KanaPlex. It is stronger than Triple Sulfa but I'm not sure if your little guy is up to it now, so Triple Sulfa might be better for now.. you'll want to do 2 5-day courses of it, maybe 3. The Betta experts here have found out from the manufacturers that it is safe to do 3 courses if necessary. If you think you'll need 3, i'd get 2 boxes just in case.. you can always forego the 3rd course if you want.

some other items that might be good would be:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Produc...&N=2004+113074 - we use this testing kit to test ammonia, nitrites and nitrates.
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Produc...&N=2004+113769 - this costs a little more than a strip thermometer but gives you digital accuracy and the ability to test the temp of water in a jug, coming out of the tap, etc.

That's the entire plan and all of the products that we would run for him if we were treating him. Those products combined give him the best chance of healing up his wounds i think. Some products can be found locally, some (like vitachem) would need ordered. the priority would be clean, heated water and triple sulfa, but as much of this plan as you can implement would increase his chances.. Honestly, he's got what looks like a bad case of fin rot that's become body rot but Bettas are tough little guys and he can make it. You've taken good care of him and he is at the average life span of a betta now, but i hope that he'll be able to heal up and get to be an elderly betta. Also, the human touch is an intangible help to a sick betta, they love to watch us and hear us.

Best of luck to you and to your little guy.

armadillo

Oh Zman honestly, you dont' come across as a dork whatsoever. I think it's fabulous that you ask these questions because you want to take great care of him. I just think it's a shame petshops spread a mix of misinformation and perfectly good advice. How is one to make the difference and who is one to think they know better?

Told you the forum betta experts would come in! Whatever you do, trust BettaCouple. He's saved a couple of my fish for me (eternally grateful, Dave!!!)

Tom, indeed, the bleeding is what puzzles me. I agree with you that the fin thing sounds totally like finrot, though.

How's your little guy doing?

Zman

Thanks for asking, Armadillo,
He is alive this morning, but I almost lost him yesterday. He was trying to reach the top of his bowl to get his usual gulp of air, but wasn't strong enough. He was simply floating completely vertical, head up, below the surface, completely listless. He would let himself fall down on his side, and slowly get back up, and fall again. I removed him to a more shallow bowl, with only about an inch of water, where he could reach the surface easier. The extra air seems to have helped, as this morning he was actually splashing around quite a bit. He still can't seem to eat, though. I fed him some Betta bits, and he does try to eat them. But he spits them up. When I get a break today from work, I've got to find him some smaller food.
I put a drop of Betta fix in his water till I can get him some nourishment.
I hope he will hang on till I can purchase the products mentioned by FL BettaCouple. Thanks for your advice and encouragement.

COBettaCouple

yw.. hope we'll be able to help some.

freeze-dried daphnia is a food given to bettas when they won't eat and maybe he'd eat a little of that.. or thawed frozen bloodworms? (maybe dipped in garlic juice if they're not accepted without)

Zman

A quick update: I got some frozen blood worms this morning at the local fish store, Sea Vision ( they had never heard of daphnia, so you guys are more than a little more advanced). Speedy did eat a few of them, not many. But its the first thing he's eaten in about 3 days, so I'm hopeful. I cleared the rest out of his water. I don't know when to put him back in deeper water. He pops his head up and takes a breath very easily in the shallow water I now have him in. I guess I'll wait till his appetite fully returns. As I said earlier, yesterday he didn't have the strength to make it to the surface, so I don't want to rush him.

COBettaCouple

good to hear that he ate some.. the daphnia you'll find with the canned fish food. hikari has a great freeze-dried daphnia. petsmart carries it for sure. that's where we got ours.

armadillo

Hi Zman. That's good to hear, that he's eating. I still think getting him a 3G, perhaps with a tall ornament so he can rest on that, close to the surface, might do him good, but not right now, as he's not well and may not appreciate being moved. You're putting so much effort in for him, I really hope he pulls through.

Zman

UPDATE:
Thanks to all of you for your help. Speedy is still alive. He's really weak. But he is eating both blood worms and Betta Bites ( which he could not before). The swelling on his dorsal fin stump is going down, although its still an ugly thing. He no longer bleeds there when I change his water.
He does not swim very well, still, so I have him in about 2 inches of water. I have also added a heating pad (set on low) under his bowl. He has never been above room temp before. If he makes it, I'll get him a heated, filtered tank. Blood worms dirty the water up so quickly!

COBettaCouple

he's moving in the right direction and hopefully will keep going that way. it sounds like he's happier and feeling better somewhat though to be eating.

does that heating pad stay on or shut off automatically after an hour or so? we used a heating pad on a sick betta's container once and it does need temp. monitoring of the water.

Zman

No, it does not automatically shut off. It has a high, medium and low setting. The low is simply warm. His water was between 65 - 75 degrees ( room temp) for 3 years. With the heating pad on, the water does not feel warm to the touch, but it doesn't feel cool either. I'm checking it right now with a thermometer.

COBettaCouple

yea, i think for Bettas (at least to my perception) the water should feel slightly cold, which is how 80F water feels to me.

Zman

Yikes! I had to take 2 readings. I couldn't believe it at first. It read 88F the first time, and 90F the second. I'm assuming thats too warm. But Speedy seems to like it. He's swimming around a great deal this evening, which is a big improvement. Should I turn off the pad for a few hours? Permanently?

COBettaCouple

a heating pad is tricky to use as far as your water temp goes since it's not aiming for a particular temp really but just warming at a certain rate. what we had to do was monitor the temp and turn the heater on/off when needed.. trying to stay in the 80F range.. although for his condition 84F might be a good temp to shoot for. after a little bit, you can get a feel for how long and how often to turn on the heating pad.. if you can stay in a 2 or 3 degree range, that'd be best.. they love consistency. i know it's kind of a pain, but it's the best way that i've found to use a heating pad for this purpose.

you'll have to see how fast the water loses heat there, but we were dropping a couple degrees per hour without the heating pad on and i ended up doing 15min bursts of heating pad on low whenever the temp got below 80 (84 in your bettas case for now).

Zman

While I am happy he is swimming so much and eating again, I am concerned about the way he is swimming. He moves his tail in a different manner than he used to, much more awkward. It may be that the fin rot stump is causing him pain and hindering his movements. He does alot of flips, which is strange to see in just 2 - 2.5 inches of water, and then just slumps on the bottom for a long while.

COBettaCouple

it's a big change to him.. and it is a good sign that he's got more energy and appetite.. he's probably easily tired though and why he will slump to the bottom.. they love swimming around, so it's natural to do that more as they feel better. hopefully the way he's swimming is a temporary thing and will change back as he heals up.

Zman

Update: Its been a week now, and Speedy is still alive. I increased the depth of his water by a few inches, but gave him some large rocks to rest on that rise to just beneath the surface. He's usually hanging out there, now, with occasion forays into the deep end of the pool. His appetite is back. But his injury doesn't seem to be healing at all anymore. It looks horrible and painfull. I followed FLBettaCouple's advice and purchased KanaPlex. I've waited till he was strong enough to handle it, and administered it today. I hope it doesn't kill him. I've read on various forums that it does kill fish even when administered in the right dose, much less the wrong dose. The clerk at store I bought it from today told me they never use it on their fish ( but they stock it?). But it is a "big guns" medication that does often work, I've read as well. I can only hope I did the math right before I dosed him. I felt like a coke dealer, splitting up little stacks of it with a razor blade. We'll see how it does.

armadillo

Gawd, I really think he makes it. It just might be that push that he needs to get better.

COBettaCouple

we're glad to hear that he's eating and swimming a little. The Kanaplex is powerful meds and we'd only recommend it for extreme finrot cases like Speedy's where bodyrot is a high possibility. I don't think i've seen a fish bounce back from extreme finrot like he has, so he's showing a lot of strength now, just surviving with it shows he's a strong little Betta -- he's got a better chance than most fish would i think. He's definitely a little fighter and wants to get better. Keep up the attention time too, it helps them fight. Best of luck to you both and i hope to hear that the kanaplex is healing up that wound soon.

capekate

Any word on how this poor betta is doing? gawd... what an awful open sore, it looks so painful, I cant imagine a betta surviving that. I sure hope that its doing better and in a bigger tank with a heater. Has Zman posted anywhere else on Speedys condition since these posts?
~ kate

COBettaCouple

i don't think so. we're waiting to see how the little guy does too and hope he pulls through.

Zman

Just wanted to give you guys an update on Speedy. Still alive. I began administering Kanaplex last week. He did not like it very much at first, at least in its perscribed dosage. He turned dull gray ( instead of his usual blue), and his surviving bottom and rear fins became completely translucent. There were no holes, but they had clear patches that you could see through. I thought he was a "goner" for sure, with this new setback on top of everything else. I immediately did a 50% water change and have only been giving him half the required dosage.
His body color is back to normal, although his fins are still a little off. His wound does not seem to be healing, or maybe its just a slow process. Don't know if Kanaplex can turn around body rot, which I assume he has, based on others oppinion on this forum ( who are wiser than me in fish care). I also am adding a little Bettafix and Maracyn. He is eating well. I'm keeping his water level very low so he can surface easily.
In addition to the meds, I gave him a new piece of furniture, a ceramic sake cup. Speedy seems to enjoy curling around it for long periods of time.