capekate

hello all
Im pleading for some help here. Its a terrible thing to watch your fish die. I dont know what is going on. First it was the bumblecatfish, and I thought that was random. Then I lost a black skirt tetra. Next day it was a tiger barb. Then it was a serpae tetra next. I checked the water perimeters and the ammonia was zero, nitrite zero, but the nitrate was higher than its normal 10. It was over 20 most likely a 30. Maybe close to a 40. Which is very unusual for my tank readings. When I saw second black skirt start acting sick, is when I did the test. I immediatly did a water change of about 40%. Surprisingly that black skirt tetra seemed to recoup fine. And today I did another test and it was around 20. So did another water change. The three serpae tetras that were fine.. are now sick and dying. The 3 tiger barbs have been hiding out under the bubble wand and are now dying. It seems to be some kind of nerve thing. First they appear weak agains the current and struggle. Then they seem to loose control, as if paralized. Then snap out of it and swim alittle more and then again seem to be paralized. My thought is that its nitrate poisening. What else can it be? and what can I do??
New fish I brought in were three otos and they are doing great! I brought them into the tank 11 days ago. I know that otos are very sensitive to water conditions and yet these guys are doing fine. All the tigers are sick and dying as I type.. and the serpae tetra are freezing up as well. The original black skirt is doing fine at the moment and doesnt seem to be sick anymore. Anyone have any clues whats going on? I feel so helpless and dont know what to do?!!
PLease help my fish!!!
~ kate

cress10

Sorry to hear about your fish Kate. I am not sure what to do, just know that I said a quick prayer for your babies. Sorry!

cichlid seeker

you have to lower the nitrate levels to 0 the nitrates and nitrites should always be 0

capekate

Thank you so much... I appreciate that.

capekate

Hello and thank you for your help. The nitrate level for a normal reading can be around a 10 and 20 is considered to be ok, not a drastic number to cause problems in most fish. But one that I would definitaly want to do a water change. My readings have never been above a 10, until now. Ive done about a 50% water change now in two days and other than that, not sure what to do now.
thanks again for your help ~ kate

capekate

well I just completed another ten gal water change. And still watching the fish. One tiger barb doesnt look like its going to make it. The other two tiger barbs are what I would call stable, with no real symptoms. the three otos act like they are not affected at all by whats going on in the tank. The serpae look alittle better, but im watching one for its weakness in swimming. I took out the frill plant as it was looking pretty bad. With the diatoms all over it and parts of it looked like it was dying, I thought maybe the plant could have contributed to the problem, what ever that is. Im still thinking that it was a high dose of nitrate that is killing the fish. Im hoping that the last water change, which would make it about almost a 60% water change will help the surviving fish. Any other suggestions out there? Im afraid Im going to wake in the morning to a dead tank..
thanks, kate

COBettaCouple

have you been using amquel+ or prime on the tank and on all new water since this started? could you post pics of any of the fish? i don't think your nitrates really should be causing so much damage even if they had got to 40 before all the water changes. it sounds more like something contagious perhaps. that dying plant should have been releasing nitrites and this does sound as if it's a nitrite outbreak.. are there any other things about their behavior, swimming, appetite, apperance, gill color.. even the littlest thing that might give a clue to the problem?

timg

I'm with Flbc on the idea that nitrates are not a likely cause for this. The reason behind this thought is that nitrates are not toxic except in very high doses, and 40 is not high. It's above normal limits, but well within tolerance for fish.

My feeling is that it is something you are not looking for causing this. Is this one of your new tanks, or the established one? Also, is there any chance of a pollutant getting into the tank or the filtration system accidentally? Have you been decorating or using spirit-based materials lately? What caused the nitrate spike?

Not a lot of help unfortunately, but without hands-on knowledge it's very difficult to guess, and that is the best we can do. I must say that I think you are looking in the wrong direction thinking of the nitrates though, so please take a look around and find the cause of the problem rather than just curing the result.

capekate

Hope by answering some of these questions, and when you look at the youtube video that I will link asap, I hope you can help me to figure out what is wrong with these guys.
thanks for all your help. ~ kate

COBettaCouple

do they have weight loss and/or white/gold spots?

capekate

Thanks Tim, I got your PM and was wondering if a dying plant can have caused some kind of gas build up? I have uploaded a video to youtube an as soon as its done processing I will post the link. Now another tiger barb is acting the same way the others have. If it was a water problem, wouldn't the otos be affected? They are sensitive to water conditions Ive heard? I introduced the three otos to the tank on june 30th. With them not being sick, can they have introduced something to the tank? The bumblebee catfish died on july 6th, on the 8th a black skirt tetra died, on the 9th a tiger barb died. All the same way. First weak.. laying low down around the gravel.
thanks for all your help in trying to figure out what is wrong with these poor guys. My husband is pretty upsset by it all. They were all doing fine, the tank readings were good and we are getting ready to add fish to the new 55g soon. He is discouraged at this, and is now hesitant about adding 25 dollar fish to the 55g, if we cant even take care of the 29 cycled tank.

capekate

The serpae looked a little skinny and I thought it strange how I can almost see right through them as if they were translucent. No white/gold spots. No physical apperance of any symptoms on their bodies that I can see.
thanks, kate

timg

I would suggest that is is either parasitic or bacteria infection. I had fish do this on me some years ago and the ones that came through were treated with meth blue and protozin. Don't exactly know what it was, but this combination saved a few of them.

Put them into a QT and treat as soon as possible or just treat the tank they're in, but meth blue doesn't do tanks or equipment any favors! Oh, and take the temp up to around 82-84 which will help to dislodge any parasites.

capekate

thanks so much I will bring the temp up. I have on hand, Mardel Maracyn. I also have, Jungle lab, fungus clear, says it clears fungus and bacteria fast. I also have on hand, Aqua-sol, (for ICK)says that its used also on protozoan parasites, its only ingrediant is copper sulfate. Is there any name brand that i should look for that includes the meth blue and protozin?
thanks, kate

COBettaCouple

It does look like a parasitic infection. meth. blue can be bought on it's own, either from the LFS or the DFS website. The aquasol could do for now or you could get some parasite clear.. or: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Produc...1&N=2004&Nty=1 for a stronger med.

vin

It's impossible to keep nitrates at 0 as this is the bi-product of the bacteria that consumes ammonia and nitrites.....Keeping them under 20 is preferable. Closer to 10 is ideal. Levels 40+ are getting into the lethal range.

capekate

thanks so much Dave,
I will look for that product at the LFS, but off hand, I dont think I remember seeing it there. The product info on that link, says that its safe for the tank. Id like to use that for sure! Do you think that its a good idea to take the sick fish out, put them into a spare ten gal tank that I have, add water, water conditioner, no filter, use a air tube for areation, no gravel, use the heater to get the temp up first? Then add the fish.. and meds there? Or should I treat the whole tank as it is? Should I start off with the aqua-sol now or wait and see if I can find the product that includes the meth at the LFS?
thanks so much for your help!!

COBettaCouple

to be safe, i'd treat that whole tank since there's a chance of contagion. i'd treat with what you can now and move on to the stronger med when you get it but if you can find Parasite Clear locally and start that today, i'd do that since aqua-sol is relatively weak.
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...pc=1&N=0&Nty=1 - look for this at the LFS or order it with that stronger parasite med if you do an order.

capekate

thanks Dave,
Im heading out the door now and hope that I can find that product.

COBettaCouple

ok, best of luck & i hope you find it all.

timg

sounds like a good chance that you can get this beaten, if you don't leave it any longer to treat.

Use the aquasol to start with, ensure the carbon is removed from your filter, raise the temp and then find alternatives like Meth blue or parasite clear to finish the job off.

If you treat them where they are then the whole tank will be cleared and with parasites there is a fair chance that they are water bound, and it saves stressing the fish any further. If you can avoid meth blue in this instance it would be good, as it will stain the silicon and air tubing, heater and filter media and leave a blue tinge behind afterwards.

timg

One other thing April, don't expect miracles. I would be very surprised if you save the ones that are already showing serious signs of affliction, but you should be able to stop the progression further and the others that are just starting to show signs should recover.

Good luck and I hope all goes well for you.

Tim.

timg

After reading through the thread again, I would suggest that the infection came in with the ottos and it then spread to the other fish. The ottos may well be carriers and not affected by this particular disease, which could be why they are still ok. I take it that you didn't qt the ottos first? Ooops!

This is a good example of the need to qt new fish before adding them to the community tank, although there is no guarantee that it would have shown up on them anyway!

It might be worth noting that when new fish arrive here they are put into the qt which is always treated with blue and anti-worming treatment. (Yes, fish do get worms). I watch the fish for any other symptoms and treat accordingly. For example, I recently purchased three female dwarfs and a female guppy from Petsmart, only to find that when I got them home, they were covered with whitespot. If they had been introduced to the community straight away, I would have had to treat not just one tank but three!
The new fish will stay in qt for at least a week if nothing shows, or until treatment is completed if anything is wrong. Keep the 10 gallon spare if you can!

Methylene blue is one of the traditional remedies for many ailments, works as a calmer and combats most types of fungus, slime, flukes white spot and velvet. Normally I use at half strength, otherwise you can't see the fish! (It's not called blue for nothing)

capekate

thanks so much Tim. Dave and Vin~
I found the parasite clear by jungle lab and put in three tabs. It says to use one tab for every 10 gals of water. When I came home I found the serpae and the tiger barb that were dying, dead. I have another tiger barb left, that is a little weak I hope that I can help that one. Im down to two serpaes left, two black skirts and one tiger barb. Not including the three otos that do not seem fazed at all by whats going on in the tank.
It very well could have been the otos that brought something in. I am going to set up the spare 10g as the future QT. And use it when I bring fish home. good idea on treating them anyway.. even if they are not sick when brought home. Maybe something that is mild in nature, can be used without harming any that are not sick to begin with.
Im going to set up the tank to use to quarantine the cardinal tetras that I will be bringing home for the 55g. The two discus wont need to go into QT since they would be the first fish introduced to the new tank. I am not fooling myself into thinking that IM going to be able to save any of the fish at this point. But its good that I treat the tank and then feed it ammonia til I think its clean enough to add new fish there at some point.
Thanks for all your help and advice.. ~ kate

timg

\That's why I use meth blue. It is as close to natural as you can get and has a long and distinguished history of success. It is completely harmless to healthy fish, new eggs, fry or anything else but effective on a wide range of ailments. It's a very good all-rounder, so long as you don't mind the blue edges and corners of the tank!

capekate

Well I guess if i use it for a QT it wont be a problem with the stainning. I didnt see any at the LPS in town but will have to go to petsmart and see if they have any. If not, then I will order it online and keep it handy for the Qt. Does the Methblue interfere with the cycle? Or when used in a QT we dont have to worry about the cycle since the meds destroy it anyway?

timg

It has no effect on the cycle and doesn't disturb the bacterial culture at all. As long as you remove any carbon from the filters, it will be fully effective. It is made by InterPet and readily available in most places. Just ask for interpet number 10.

All joking apart, the blue staining is permanent, which is why I say to use in qt if at all possible, since it will resist just about all attempts to remove it from the silicon, including strong bleach! Once it's there, it stays, but for qt that's no problem, and if I ever need to treat one of the main tanks, I only ever use half strength.

For a long time I used a drop of this to treat the water during changes. one drop in a 4 gallon bucket will give a really nice blue tint to the water in the aquarium, which is actually quite attractive!

COBettaCouple

when we have a q/h tank we don't worry about it being cycled since we sometimes would use a med that would destroy the cycle anyway.

capekate

I set up the ten gal as a QT. It has a heater, small filter and a aeration wand. No gravel.. no decorations. The small filter Im using had a filter cartridge that i kept in a cycled tank, I remember reading that the meds take away the cycle anyway so I wont concern myself about the cycle. I will just watch the water perimeters and do water changes.
Im hoping that I will be able to add the cardinal tetras to that tank tomorrow and keep them in quarantine til I can put them into the tank with the discus. Do you think it will be all right to keep them in there, if the tank isnt cycled?
So its all done... and the parasite clear seems to be working, or its my imagination. Or its just that all the real sick fish have died. Im down to two serpeas, one tiger barb and two black skirt tetras an three otos.
<sigh>......
Thanks Tim for the tip on the blue stain. If i can help it I wont put that in the QT until I really need it with sick fish.
thanks to all for helping me.... ~ kate

timg

Lets hope that we have been able to catch this in time to save the rest. I use the blue as a first line of defense in the qt and it's in there before the fish go in normally. I have resigned myself to the blue edges and the filter and things that are in the tank stay there all the time, so it doesn't matter now!

I would recommend that all qt fish are treated with blue from the start, since at half dosage it is able to eliminate most of the problems before they take hold, and it works as a good conditioner if they are not sick. the fish themselves don't get stained, strangely enough, and they will be healthy and happy fish. It also contains a stress reliever, so they settle much quicker and brighten up almost straight away.

As for the water parameters, some meds do destroy the bio-culture, purely because they are designed to kill bacteria, but in many cases the filter will be unaffected and so cycling is possible in the qt most of the time. My qt has an undergravel filter system anyway, which tends to be more resistant to meds. A trick I use is to keep another filter in one of my established tanks loaded with bacteria, so if the meds damage the culture, when the treatment is over I just drop this filter in and mini-cycle the tank. It only takes a couple of days to stabilize again.

If the qt is empty, then I feed it as you would fishless cycling, are use it to condition for breeding to keep the balance. When sick fish are put in, it is much better if the tank is cycled, as it reduces the need for water changes, which allows for more effective treatment and less guessing on the dosage to top up with.

I also have a few plastic plants and substrate in there so that they can feel more at home, with places to hide and so on. The more comfortable the fish is, the quicker and more effectively it responds to treatment. (I know this sounds daft, but would you be happy put into a bare room with nothing but a bed?)