jerilovesfrogs

hi everyone! i'm super new at this whole fish keeping thing! it started when my young daughter kept bugging me about a fish. one day i was like, oh....well don't those betta things like live in a coffee can size space? so i ended up getting a "betta bowl" and a few extras....and the pretty blue betta i "rescued" from wal-mart! now freddie.

well then i started reading....ooops. i had a few things majorly wrong. so then i got a 2.5g kit thing. better size, filter, heater etc. but i still was not aware of the nitro cycle. so in he went, to another potentially toxic home. i did buy an API master kit to monitor water. things seemed like they were going ok, then maybe 2.5-3 weeks in, ammonia was spiking terribly....upwards of 4-8PPM!!. (i had not been vacuuming, no clue) i have one now. but to save his life, i took him out and put him back in the bowl. i decided to take down the 2.5g and start over. i saw no other way. that's where i am now. i am trying to get my hands on some TSS to get it going.

i love having a fish....he has so much personality and knows me. very cool. i don't want to give up on him and i want to try my best. but i get overwhelmed with all the info out there....most of it bad. i just called a jack's pet store to see if they had TSS, he said no, but we have bio-boost, same idea. i think not! i was sold Cycle(a couple weeks ago) at an Aquarium Adventure store where i got my 20g. (not set up). well, hey, thanks for that mr.i have no clue about anything related to fish. he also suggested using zebra danios to cycle. which i knew was bad. too much junk out there......who do i believe?! please help me, anyone! here are my list of questions:

*air pump- guy at AA store said i don't need one b/c my filter will give enough agitation. mainly applies to my 20g. true/false?

*spare tank. do i need one? does it have to be cycled....what is the bare minimum i need for it?

*i don't want or need any little fishy babies. how to avoid? can you avoid? (this is for when i get my community tank set up)

*i do not, unfortunately, have all the time in the world to deal with my fish all day long. i have 3 cats, a bunch of backyard birds i feed, i garden, am active, had a child etc! you get the point. i have a life lol. i want to take care of my fish properly, but can't focus on it for hours on end each day.

*how often, when i get it cycled and fish back in, do i need to vacuum and do water changes?

*my 2.5g and not- set- up 20g are both Aqueon. both are kits. is the filter ok that came with them? if not my hubby will not be too happy about that! i've spent a lot so far. or can i get away with the kind of filter it is. HOB(20g), and hang in tank for 2.5g, replace a cartridge every month type thing?

*which h2o conditioner is the best to use?

Kopeth

Airpump: Depending on the size of the aquarium and types of fish you want to stock you may or may not need aeration . As a rule of thumb its always a good thing to have. You can purchase Bubble stones and a small airpump at your LFS

Spare tank: Another good thing to have but not necessary unless you are doing saltwater fish. also referred to as quarantine tanks these are good for nursing sick fish or examining new fish for disease. When using your Q-tank for fish add some media from your cycled tank (Used Filter/Floss, Gravel, Ornaments etc.) to insta-cycle your Q-tank

Avoiding babies: You can try and request only getting male or females of the fish you want to stock (However not likely the LFS will do this correctly) Best to stay away from prolific breeders (Guppies, Mollies, Platys, Danios etc.)

Not much time for maintenance: When cycling a tank to begin with you have to spend a lot more time managing it then you will once it is maintained and cycled. For the 20G tank remember: The more fish you have in the tank the more waste they will produce...causing more water changes. So get fish that aren't big waste producers (goldfish, some catfish are big waste producers) and don't overstock your tank. Maybe get a group of Neon Tetras or Cherry Barbs.

Cycling: Once you cycle your tank typical is weekly 10-25% water changes and gravel vacuum.

Are filters enough for tank? Usually if it came with the kit it can handle the tank size. To be safe don't overstock your tank and take ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate readings prior to adding more fish.

H2O Conditioner: I recommend using PRIME as it will Detox all Tap Water and also detox, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate for 24 hours.

Lucy

Welcome to FishLore!!
Don't worry, many of us started out the same way.

Tetra SafeStart can be pretty hard to find.
This thread will help with some questions about it's use.
Q & A With Tetra about Tetra SafeStart

Cycling with fish weakens their immune system. It leaves them open to disease, illness and death so your instincts are correct on this.

You can reduce that risk with daily waters changes and using a conditioner like Prime will detox the ammonia for 24 hours between water changes.
In a 2.5, that won't be so bad.

Since Freddie is in a bowl, you're going to have to do 100% changes anyway, which is pretty stressful. Also, I assume, it's not heated.
Imo, he'd be better in the 2.5 if it has a heater and filter than can be cycled.

For the larger tank here are Four Methods of Fish Less Cycling

Good luck!

funkman262

You don't want to "take down" the tank everytime you get some ammonia in there. When you do that, you're destroying the benificial bacteria in the tank and you really are starting all over. I've never owned a betta but I can't imagine them producing so much waste that it can't be handled with regular water changes and prime or amquel+. After giving the tank some time, the bacteria will grow on your filter and you'll be fine. Just monitor your water conditions and do water changes accordingly.

Goldwing_Don

Welcome to fishlore....

AlyeskaGirl

Welcome to Fishore!

don't panic, you are doing good. You have come to the right place for help. That is good of you to be researching. It gets easier as you go and start to understand things.

I agree putting him back into the small tank would be a good idea, doing daily 30-50% water changes, depending on your readings and getting a bottle of Prime for a water conditioner to convert the ammonia into a non-toxic form and detoxis nitrIte and NitrAte when you start to get those readings. Amquel Plus works just as good. when your tank is cycled you will have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and some nitrAtes you do partial weekly water changes to keep the nitrAtes less then 20, but 5-10 is best. It can take at least 6 weeks or more to cycle with fish. Good luck!

jdhef

I'm a pretty busy guy also, so I know what you mean about not having a lot of time to dedicate to an aquarium. But to be honest, my 36 gallon tank only requires less than one hour a week now that it is established. Basically I do a 50% water change every Sunday morning, and feed twice a day.

If you can't find SafeStart, the least labor intensive way of cycling is to put a small piece of shrimp in a mesh bag (so it doesn't get all over the tank as it decomposes) and throw the bag with the shrimp into the tank and let nature take it's course. As the shrimp decomposes it will release ammonia and start the cycling process. And since there are no fish in the tank there is no need for water changes until it finishes cycling. Once the cycle is complete just remove the bag with the shrimp.

One very important thing...don't change your filter media every month (like the instuctions tell you to do). The vast majority of benificial bacteria the consumes the ammonia and nitrites lives in the filter media. If you toss the media you will end up with an uncycled tank. The only problem is that the carbon is only good for about one month, but carbon isn't necessary. So just cut a slit in the filter and dump the carbon out. Then with your weekly water change, just swish the filter media around in a bucket of used tank water (the chlorine in tap water would kill your bacteria) to get the gunk off and put it back in the filter.

Good Luck

jerilovesfrogs

Well i don't think i had anything "good" in there honestly! even if i did keep it up and try to deal with it, it would have been a lot more work to get the level under control, than to just start over. i don't think levels of 4-8PPM of ammonia are very good for my fish....so regardless, i had to get him out. it was a complete mess when i took it apart. i also didn't have very good substrate either.

it sure looks a lot better now that it's all nice and clean, and has good substrate and my plant is planted under the gravel. i just need to get TSS to help me along. thanks for the input.

jerilovesfrogs

i just don't know....i mean if even the INSTRUCTIONS that came with the thing aren't correct, how the .....am i supposed to know what to do?! it's bad enough those so called employees at the stores are wrong, but so are the kit instructions? geez. so am i better off getting an aquaclear filter (like i wanted in the first place, but the dude talked me out of it), and not fussing with that dumb cartridge? i'm a smart girl, i think i can handle all the components of the aquaclear. would that be better?

so the shrimp sounds pretty easy. so what kind of shrimp is this? how do i know what to buy? small, big, jumbo? sorry for the ?'s, i just want to get this perfect. this will work for my 2.5 and 20g too? i guess i'll see if i can get some TSS though. and i do know that after it's "cycled", things will become easier, hopefully. once a week of water/vacuuming is not a big deal to me. i will now forever tell anyone i know, who might want a fish, that is a much bigger deal than they probably think! thanks for the advice

jerilovesfrogs

thanks! yeah, i love sarcasm. it's my favorite thing in life.

funkman262

You might want to find a thread about TSS to see if it has even made a difference in the cycling. I've heard good and bad things about those types of products. Some of them, you need to continue to add the product in every month for it to stay cycled (which kind of defeats the purpose). Some of them have the incorrect bacteria in them which will affect how well your tank cycles (and the bottles don't list what bacteria they include). I believe you need to stay away from those that have nitrobacter because the correct bacteria is actually nitrospira. Personally, I'd stick with good 'ol partial water changes until the tank is cycled. My guess is that the reason that the water got so bad in the first place was becuase you didn't know that you were supposed to be doing water changes (i think you stated that above). And don't overfeed (major cause of high ammonia in uncycled tanks / nitrate in cycled tanks). Whatever you decide to do, good luck

aquarist48

Hello Jeri, Welcome to Fish Lore!
Hang in there. I have an Aqua Clear 20 on my 6.6g bookshelf tank for my betta. It has a flow control and I run it on low 24/7 and my fish is doing well and the tank is clear.

Some info on Tetra Safe Start (TSS):
Q & A With Tetra about Tetra SafeStart

Best of luck!
Ken

jerilovesfrogs

well i have read some stuff about TSS.....it has the "good" kind of good bacteria lol. Cycle, does not. that is what i was sold. so..... well i actually was doing 25% changes every three days in the 2.5. was ok for a while....but i think the big problem was that i wasn't vacuuming. when i finally did, oh wow. that's when i said, ewww, freddie just cannot come back to this cesspool! that's when i started over. he's currently waiting in the bowl. which i do partial changes every day, as it's about 1/2g and i don't want too much ammonia to build up. i think he's mad about not being in heated water lol.

i'm ok with not using a bacteria product....but i need an ammonia source...which would be like shrimp, as suggested by the mermaid...man, i think. there should be a warning sign on the tanks in the fish stores how much work goes into this. hahaha. sure. then those losers would never sell anything!

Prince Powder

Keep in mind, the instructions are made by a company whose main purpose is to make money. The same goes for the LFS people. None of them will tell you that you should not be spending your money buying their stuff.

If you decide to exchange for an Aqua Clear filter for your 20g that would be fine. IMO they are the best HOB filters on the market. You don't HAVE to exchange your filter though. The only thing in a cartridge that requires regular changing is the carbon, but you can simply cut open the cartridge and dump out the carbon after it's run its course which usually takes about 3-4 weeks. Once you've dumped the carbon, you can pretty much leave the cartridge in there until it is literally falling apart. I have cartridge filters which I cut the carbon out of and I simply put the cartridge back in without the carbon. Carbon has some benefits, it helps clarify the water and is excellent to use if you've medicated a tank as it will remove the medication from your water when you're done treating, but carbon is actually not really necessary for a tank. Even many people with Aqua Clear filters don't bother with the carbon and instead use either more of the ceramic biomax rings or another sponge to fill the filter chamber.

The shrimp method for a fishless cycle can be used to cycle ANY tank, but I would recommend putting your betta back in the 2.5 and doing a fish in cycle for that tank. As hard as cycling is on a fish, he is better off in the 2.5 where there is a heater than in a bowl. Regardless of whether you have him in the bowl or the 2.5 tank, you will still need to provide him with daily water changes until the tank cycles so he may as well be in the bigger tank with the warmer waters. If you can get the TSS, I would recommend it for your 2.5 tank. Even though the bottle is designed for a tank up to 30 gallons, it is impossible to overdose with TSS so it will help cycle the tank much faster for your betta.

I would not recommend the TSS for the 20g though. TSS is designed to be used with fish and since your 20g is currently empty, you have the option of the fishless cycle with raw shrimp which will spare any fish from having to unnecessarily being exposed to a cycle.

Etcetera

I'm pretty wary of magical bacteria supplements--I have heard very good things about BioSpira though. It has a very short shelf life and must be refrigerated, this means it is much more likely to have viable bacteria. It has very good reviews, I would prefer it over safestart.

You can also seed your tanks with mature filter media, mulm, or substrate from an established tank. So if you have a friend who keeps fish as well--bum some good old aquarium filth off them.

When I do a fishless cycle, I use bottled ammonia like you find at a hardware store. Just make sure that it's pure ammonia, with no additives, generally you want the cheapest most generic thing they offer. When you shake it, it shouldn't bubble or foam at all.

Also, does the betta tank have a heater? You might consider getting something like a 25W Hydor Theo. If the tank has an incandescent light, be aware that these lights cause rapid temperature fluctuations. My first betta all those years ago had one and unfortunately suffered from a terrible ICH infestation due to stress from rapid temperature change caused by those little lights and a cheap mini heater.

Prince Powder

BioSpira is technically no longer made for fresh water. The formulas for both fresh and salt water BioSpira were both sold. Instant Ocean now manufactures salt water BioSpira. Tetra now manufactures fresh water BioSpira which has been modified to improve shelf life and no longer requires refrigeration. Tetra has also renamed the fresh water BioSpira. It is now called Tetra SafeStart.

funkman262

Tetra SafeStart is actually the new and improved freshwater version of Bio-Spira (which is for saltwater tanks).

funkman262

Oh darn, Prince Powder beat me to the punch

Etcetera

Oh really. D: I didn't realize they were bought out, lol. Safestart it is then! I.. I feel so outdated.

jerilovesfrogs

i ordered TSS today! and it had better not be expired! hope it comes soon.....

funkman262

Be sure to update everyone with your results and opinions about the product

1hawaii50

To the OP, don't worry about the clueless LFS employees, everybody has to deal with them. I went up to get some more Praecox Rainbows for my 38 gallon tank, and the guy that was helping me went on and on about Praecox Rainbows. He told me how he has a 100 gallon tank FULL of Praecox Rainbows, and how they are the best fish. I then asked him for 2 males and 4 females, and he looked me dead in the face and said "How can you tell the difference"? Luckily, I had spent quite a bit of time here before going to the store, so I knew EXACTLY what to look for. I've also found that when looking for new fish, I'll use my cell phone to take pics of the names on the tanks so that I can look up the info on the fish when I get home! I had one LFS sell me a chinese algae eater, telling me how great they are for a community tank. He was great, until he got a little older and got VERY territorial, and nasty. I ended up donating him to a different LFS after he killed my cory. I had a different LFS sell me an Angelfish for a 10 gallon tank...only to find out that they get WAY too big for a 10 gallon.

jerilovesfrogs

yeah i know, why is that? half the time i feel like i could walk in to most of these places, tell them i know this and that about fish/pets, and they'd give me a job and let me mislead people. i couldn't do that. if i didn't know, i wouldn't pretend i did. and since there is much more to fish keeping than to having, say a cat, i really rely on the employee to know what's up. but hey.....i want to much from much of the world anyway....

but what's a praecox rainbow? should i get one? lol

jdhef

Praecox Rainbows are commonly know as Neon Blue Dwarf Rainbowfish. They are a schooling fish so they prefer to be in groups.

I think the pets stores give out bad info because it seems pretty overwhelming to people new to fish keeping to learn and understand the whole cycling process, and I think they are afraid that after a 35 minute seminar, peoples eyes will just glaze over and they will leave without buying several hunderd dollars worth of merchandise.

But if they just tell you buy all of this stuff, fill it with water and add fish, they will make a sale.

1hawaii50

Check out my pics here:

The new members of the family!

They are absolutely beautiful. When the light hits them just right, their scales show a very nice shimmering blue color.

jerilovesfrogs

wow those rainbow fish are really pretty, super shiny! i was thinking of getting some cardinal tetras.....peppered corys, not sure what else. are these rainbows easy/hard to take care of? i love those panda corys....but i've heard they can be sensitive. as a newbie, i dunno.

jerilovesfrogs

yes, i've thought of that......people who hear of what's involved with fish will be shocked and either a. say, uhhh no way or b. become intrigued and want to know more and get into it like i have. although i did it backwards! got the fish, then learned everything, haha. it's very fun though and it makes me feel very scientific with all the testing etc!

1hawaii50

I've found the Rainbows are very easy to care for. They'll eat just about anything! As far as the Panda Corys, I've heard they are sensitive, but I've got them in a new tank...we'll see how they do, but so far, so good!

marina3

Dear jerilovesfrogs,

I was just visiting this forum when I read your post and it brought a smile to my face because your "journey" in fishkeeping cannot be more similar to mine. It also started with the purchase of a betta fish to keep at work, 5 bettas later and a handful of other fish- that sadly not all have survived- and I am still here, trying to learn. I am warning you, the more you ask/research the more confused you will get, but you have to keep doing it until you feel more comfertable making your own decisions...I started on Jan. 13th with a 10gl tank and my betta in it (per my LFS advice). I didn't know about fishless cycling but believe me, after losing my beloved betta and 6 other fish (you have to prepare for that, it does happen!) what I will do if I was you: get your 20gal tank go thru the fishless cycling. Be patient! Wait 4-6 weeks until your ammonia reads below .25(preferable 0) nitrits are 0 and nitrates below 20!!! In the meantime, put Freddie in a 1.5 or 2 gl bowl with a mini heater. I use Hydor mini heater for 2-5 gl. This heaters just raise the temp a few degrees so you won't cook Freddie, I can assure you. And just wait!!! Believe me, your life will be so much easier. I am also busy, with 3 dogs,2 cats and a household to run by myself, the last 6 weeks of cycling with fish has been a TORTURE!!! Don't do it!!! Good luck!! You will do great!!!

jerilovesfrogs

hi marina....thanks for the reply! yes, in the beginning the more i read, the more my head spinned, but now i'm feeling better. shortly after i got freddie flinstone the betta....i decided to get a 2.5g mini-bow, and did get the hydro mini heater you have. but the i realized, after a few weeks, i didn't know about the nitro cycle....i ended up taking him out, and starting over. he had been staying in a bowl, until today, when he finally went back in the tank! i am using tetra safestart with him....and i will with my 20g also. he has been very good through this whole thing. in fact, he's even been begging all day. hard to resist when they do that. mine will look straight at me, then look at the surface, like, ok...put one in!

it's so easy to become overwhelmed when first starting at this....i have had no one to help, except on here. thankfully! and i do not trust most LFS employees anymore....i feel so wise now that i stopped listening to them lol. well i wish you luck, and hope you finish your cycling soon!