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November 18th, 2009
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| | Fish Lore Newbie
| suddenly scared of light
Hoping someone can shed some light on this issue. I have had a 29 gal tank set up since the beginning on august. The water parameters are as follows: ammonia 0/ nitrite 0/ nitrate 10(6 from tap)/ pH 7.6/ GH 11/KH 5. 3 blackskirt tetras were added 2nd week of september, after initial fishless cycle. since they were the first addition there was no quarientine. shortely after interduction noticed ICH. innitially treated with maracide per instructions, treatment was inneffective and was directed by mardel to use coppersafe. Changed 50% water as instructed and began coppersafe. Ich cleared up in 5 days, maintained 1.5-2 PPM for total 21 days before discontinuing treatment of new water used for partial water changes. 35%-40% water changes are performed weekly. All 3 fish recovered well, regained appatite, and seemed to be dooing well, one took about a week longer then the others to regain energy and appatite. All was well for a couple weeks when 5 nights ago all 3 were swimming under the 36 watts of actinic blue/10000K light that has been on a 12 hour cycle since the tank was first set up, before I had any fish. I was sitting on my couch enjoying my fish, and eating a snack, I looked up at the tank between bites of pie and noticed that the fish were suddenly huddled
strangely close to the bottom against the front glass looking very stressed. I stood up to take a better look and they started darting all over the tank, and eventually all took cover in a ditch behind a dense clump of plastic plants. They were completely shocked, twitching and on highg alert. a few minutes later the lights were due to shut off, and afterwords the fish relaxed and resumed normal activity. the next morning they were fine before the tank lights went on. no flashing, no twitching, fins erect, playful with each other, no spots or anything abnormal. Then the lights went on and they freeked out, same as the night before. I tried to leave them alone thinking they would relax after a while, when i returned they were acting the same as when I left 5 hours before. I shut off the light and within 10 minutes they were fine. Now it has been 5 days and they are still completely shocked by any amount of light besides ambient room lighting. the room is well lit by the time the tank light goes on in the morning, I have tried a different light above the tank(mutch dimmer) with the same results. I tried to partially shade the tank with some opaque material under the light, same results. but while the tank light is off they seem very happy. My ph is a little high but it has been stable since setup. I would like to resume stockng, but not until i understand whats up with these guys. seems strange that they would change behavior so abruptly? ayone have any ideas. btw there are rocks, and plants to hide in. | 
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November 18th, 2009
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| | Fish Helper
| mabey try some live plants and put both burried in gravel that is if you have the right gravel(the small typer of gravel) if not try some live floating plants like wysteria. if this does not work try searching on the internet what fish you have and mabey watch some vidoes on them good luck | |
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November 18th, 2009
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| | Moderator
| Hello Kernal and Welcome  to Fish Lore. It does sound like your fish are demonstrating some odd behavior. What type of test kit are you using to test for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate? If you are using strips then I highly recommend switching to the API (liquid) Master Test Kit. Test strips can be unreliable and inaccurate.
I don't normally recommend using medications to treat ICH unless it's a last resort. I can't say for certain but maybe the medicines are having some bad side effects on the fish. Did you add carbon into your filter to remove the medicines once the treatment was finished?
To treat ICH you can raise your tank temperature to 84 degrees and leave it there for a full 2 weeks. ICH cannot reproduce in temperatures over 82 degrees so they die off during the two week period. Add an air stone as warmer waters require more oxygen. Do 2 gravel vacuums each week to remove the ICH spores that fall off the fish and into your substrate.
Here is a link on ICH: Ich: An Old Cure for an Old Disease
Let's see what other responses you receive.
Best of luck and I hope you enjoy the site.
Ken  | 
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November 18th, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| Just want to Welcome you To Fishlore! 
Hope you enjoy the site. Good luck! | |
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November 18th, 2009
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| | Fish Lore Newbie
| aquarist48 thanks for your response. to answer your questions: i do use the api liquid tests, and for piece of mind i have had 2 local fish stores test my water as well. all results have been consistant. as for the carbon, during medication it was removed from the filter pad, however between the 2 medications i did a 50% water change and ran carbon for approx 36 hours before starting the copper to help remove the remaining maracide. at 21 days of copper treatment i stopped medicating new water that was used for water changes. carbon was reintroduced on day 28. copper level was between .5, and 1 ppm when behavior change took place. i also have been considering the posibility of this being some sort of reaction to the medication, however it seems unlikely to me that they would react so accutely, all at the same time, and after treatment was finished. however i do recognize that i am a novice and i have alot to learn so?.... | |
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November 18th, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| Quote:
Originally Posted by kernal357  copper level was between .5, and 1 ppm when behavior change took place. i also have been considering the posibility of this being some sort of reaction to the medication, however it seems unlikely to me that they would react so accutely, all at the same time, and after treatment was finished. however i do recognize that i am a novice and i have alot to learn so?.... | High copper concentration could very well be the root of your problem.
Kordon, a company that sells a copper-based medication, recommends an effective dosage (without considering fish health!) of .15 to .25ppm, and you're 2-4x higher than their recommended upper limit: Quote:
As a general rule the desired level of dosage without considering the adverse effects on the fishes is between 0.15 and 0.25 ppm copper ions in the water.
| From skepticalaquarist.com: Quote:
dissolved copper in concentrations of 0.2 ppm will kill some fishes in 24 hours. After mercury, copper is the most toxic of the heavy metals. When adjusted weight for weight, in the analysis called "molar toxicity," copper in fact is more poisonous to fishes than lead.
Apparently some species of fish are more sensitive to copper than others. In common with plants from soft waters, softwater fishes like tetras tend to be more susceptible. There's a simple connection here. The toxicity of copper is tied to the pH of the water. Copper's toxicity depends on free Cu++ ions. While it remains free and "bioavailable," copper is quite reactive, and poisonous. In water copper is quickly chelated (chemically bound) to organic molecules, like humic acids or amino acids, or complexed to anions (negatively charged ions). It can be adsorbed onto fresh activated charcoal, or to colloidal clay and particulate floc, either in the water or in the substrate. Organic molecules such as humic substances and amino acids act quickly; even low levels of dissolved organics efficiently scavenge Cu++ from the water.
| If that article is correct that .2ppm can kill some fishes in 24 hours, you being between .5 and 1ppm could cause problems.
Other studies have show that even as low as 5 ppb (or .005 ppm) can have an impact on some organisms' ability to function: Quote:
The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has set the maximum safe level of copper for aquatic life at 13 parts per billion, well above that needed to wipe out the salmon's ability to sense chemical cues. Yet Greg Pyle, at Ni****ing University in North Bay, Ontario, Canada, has found chemosensory problems at three levels of the food chain at or below 5 ppb, the limit set by Ontario's water quality standards. "The phenomenon is ubiquitous," he says.
Leeches lost their ability to smell food, zooplankton were unable to evade predators, and fathead minnows couldn't recognize their eggs; the fish ate them instead of protecting them.
| On top of all that, Kordon acknowledges that copper doesn't go away unless chemically removed (which the skepticalaquarist article agrees with) and can even impact the bacteria involved with the nitrogen cycle, so make sure you keep an eye on your water parameters: Quote:
The proper copper treatment for immediate action against parasites is a product with copper ions. However, it is a very powerful treatment and needs to be used with caution. Once copper ions are in solution, whether from chelated copper or copper ion treatments, they remain there and are absorbed by glass, gravel, sand, rocks, coral, various plastics, etc., and stay in the aquarium or pond permanently unless chemically removed. When there are fluctuations in pH (acidity/alkalinity) in the water, part of the copper that has been absorbed can return to solution and be toxic to the aquatic inhabitants, including the fishes. This can be the reason for sudden die offs when least expected and for no apparent reason, long after a copper treatment has been used.
...
Copper ions adversely affect the gram-positive bacteria of the nitrogen cycle and biological filtration. The copper continues to affect the bacteria even after the copper treatment is discontinued.
| If you don't already, I'd strongly suggest you begin using a water conditioner that detoxifies heavy metals, such as Prime or NovAqua+. Even if the copper isn't at the root of your current problems, it could come back to haunt you later unless it's dealt with. | |
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November 18th, 2009
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| | Moderator
| Welcome to FishLore 
I deleted the duplicate thread. Members can't move threads but a moderator can. Just ask you post something in the wrong place, we'll be glad to move it for you. | |
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November 18th, 2009
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| | Fish Lore Newbie
| thank you for your in depth reply mathas, i really apprichate your time and thought. I did quite a bit of research on cleated copper treatment before use, and agree that it is not the most desirable medication. However it is important to note that coppersafe is a cleated copper compound, with a recomended theraputic concentration of 1.5-2 ppm that should be maintained for up to 30 days. I also understand that it could be a year before a copper test would indicate undetectable levels even if there was no copper in my tap water, not likely due to copper pipes. as far as the nitrifing bacteria, there was no measurable die off during treatment, water parameters are tested daily. also noteable is the fact that according to the owner of a LFS many retailers including him keep copper levels of approx .5-1 ppm in all fish tanks as a prevenative. i dont wish to sound as if i know the copper cant be the problem, i have some suspition but alot of information to the contrary, as well as the sudden onset as i described, and the fact that these fish are very social, active, playful, hungry, and confident under ambient lighting?... | |
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