RookieAqua

Hello everyone, I am new to the fourm,

Ok so I have had my 2 tanks set up for about a month. The 12 gallon has been set up and running fishless cycle since Oct 1, 2009 and the 5 gallon have been set up fishless cycle since roughly Sep 5, 2009 and I am getting absolutely no results ... literally no results. It has taken well over a month for the 5 gallon tank to go from 4 PPM ammonia to 2 ppm ammonia, and the 12 gallon tank about 3 weeks for the same ammonia drop. I have 0 ppm nitrItes, and 0ppm nitrAtes. I have had 2 donations during this time, one gravel, and the other was filter media ... both donations came from a well established healthy tank (running 2+ years, last disease outbreak in the tank was over a year ago) and still nothing!

What is going on here? I realize that cycling is not an overnight process, but I figured that after a month I should see something (almost 2 months with the 5 gallon). This is everything that I have tried thus far:

1. gravel donation
2. Mature media donation (1/3 of his filter media)
3. Water changes (advised by a friend to maybe jump start my cycle - water
was treated prior to adding to tank with tetra aqua safe)
4. Had friend run my bio media in conjunction with his filter for 2 weeks in his
established tank (note different tank then the gravel and filter media
donation - but established for 5 years last disease in this tank was over 3
years ago).
5. Verified with the company and the MSDS sheet for the product that the
ammonia I used was in fact pure ammonia. Ingredients listed ammonia and
water, shook bottle did not foam.

I am really at a loss here; I literally do not know what else to do. The only thing, other than the ammonia, that was added to my tank was the water conditioner, Tetra Aqua Safe with bio extract. I do not have live plants, I am using basic aquarium gravel, aquarium decorations and silk plants all purchased from an aquarium store. My filters are - 12 gallon tank - marineland filter with bio wheel - 5 gallon tank - aqua clear 20 filters using the default bio filter media (ceramic pieces) that came with the filter. Also I am showing no signs of algae - at least not that I can see.

Like I said I am really at a loss here, I have no idea what I should do next. I have thought of trying one of those "bacteria in a bottle" products but everything I have read about them - reviews etc - say they do not work and are a waste of money ... besides after a month should there not be at least some bacteria in my tank?

I am at my wits end, I am very close to saying forget the whole thing and throw these tanks away ... Any help/advise/tips would be welcome.

Thanks again

FYI water stats for tanks are (same for both tanks):

ammonia 2 ppm (started at 4ppm), nitrite 0 ppm, nitrate 0 ppm, pH 7.4 - 7.6 temp between 85 F and 86 F

Tap water reads: ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 0, pH 7.2

Testing supplies used:

API - verified reagents are within dates
Jungle test strips - verified with in dates
Salifert - verified with in dates
Also had water tested at 4 different aquarium shops, and had friends also test my water (not sure of the brand of test kit - but used liquid test not strips)

also have air stone in each tanks

peacemaker92

Hi Aqua and WELCOME TO FISHLORE!


I can't really cover and answer all your questions, but I'll help with some and leave the rest to the other members who can help as well.

Firstly, many members here have had great results using Tetra SafeStart (TSS) to start their cycle going. The procedures are quite simple, you'd have to dump the whole thing into the tank, wait for a week with no water changes or water test. Basically not disturbing your tank for a week. After that, you can start your water changes and test. But some members do the cycle with fish if they add TSS. So more input on that.

FL members would recommend using the API master test kit, the liquid type, to test your water parameters.

I think that's it. Hope I got you covered on most of your questions. Other members will be over to help you shortly. Best of luck!

Shawnie

welcome to fishlore !!!
awesome job on a fishless cycle ...even if you are pulling out all your hair

when you started the tanks with the media/gravel, what were you feeding it then? using the media/gravel is like an instant cycle and fish are needed to go in with it to keep the bacteria fed....if you used the media/gravel with the ammonia solution, it probably was too much ammonia and overwhelmed the colony.....pure ammonia compared to fish poo for established things, sometimes is too much ...then doing the water changes with your conditioner, probably played an effect as well.. no water changes are needed when cycling fishless....the higher temps are great and will speed it up (of course not in your eyes at this point ) I am finding it hard to figure why your ammonia was at 4ppm and now at 2ppm without a nitrite reading..its been enough time where decreasing ammonia should bring on the nitrites....add enough drops of the ammonia to keep the tanks at 4ppms at all times...every day 4ppm until you see a nitrite reading, then cut the ammonia solution in half....as far as the #2 nitrate bottle, really bang it on a hard surface to mix up those crystals...sometimes if that isnt done, you can be getting a false reading....test nitrates again after banging the bottle....good luck and hopefully other members will have more advice !

Dozey

Welcome to FishLore,

You could try using a piece of raw shrimp. Place the raw shrimp in a nylon bag (pantyhose) for easy clean up. The shrimp can be the same shrimp purchased in a shrimp ring. The decaying shrimp will help promote bacteria growth.

Although you have already checked on the purity of the ammonia that you are using please post the manufacture and product name. It never hurts to have your research verified by others.

Good luck!

RookieAqua

I know it is really weird that I had a drop in ammonia with no nitrites. I actually was redosing daily to maintain an ammonia of 4ppm but finally gave up as I still had no nitrite readings. Someone suggested that perhaps my ammonia was too high and so I thought I would try leaving it at 2ppm for a week and see what happens ... I mean at this point I am willing to try anything ... if someone told me to dance naked in the rain I would be willing to give it a go . As for doing the water changes, that was a good 3weeks (for the 5 gallon) after no results, again I was willing to try anything, there has been no water changes at all on the 12 gallon (going on 4 weeks now). For the nitrate bottle #2, yes I alway give it a good bang and shake for at least a minute, learned that trick when I called API to see if perhaps my reagents were out of date. That is also why I had the water tested at the stores and with my neighbours, they don't use API, so I thought maybe using a different brand would give me a different result but no luck.
I have one more day of leaving the ammonia at 2ppm to make it a full week, but I guess I will go back to dosing upto 4ppm daily (that is ensuring that my levels stay at 4ppm daily) and keep waiting.
I have been asking my neighbours (20+ years experience) and they are stumped, as we all live less then a mile from eachother we are fairly certain that it is not something in the water as we are all supplied by the same source. The only thing I can think of is my water conditioner, they use a different brand ... have you ever heard of water conditioners stalling, or in this case preventing, a cycle?

RookieAqua

Yeah, the company and the MSDS sheets say it is pure amonia, the brand is Austin's Pure Ammonia. Austin also make a lemon formula ... but I DID NOT use the lemon formula, I made sure I got the Pure Ammonia version. It was extremely hard to find ... I had to go to several stores to find pure ammonia, there were lots of stores that sold ammonia with perfumes, dyes and/or surfactants in it, but only one that sold pure ammonia. I finally found it at a dollar store and that is the only brand they carry, so if it is no good, I guess I am going shrimp shopping. But I did read on a blog that some guy did on fishless cycles and that was the same brand he used so I am assuming it is good.

Lucy

Welcome to Fish Lore
Good suggestions above.
Sometimes when you seed the tank it's not unusual to skip the nitrite stage. It all have to do with how much bacteria was transferred.
That doesn't explain why you're not getting a nitrate reading.
With the #2 Nitrate bottle, it's gotta be really banged around. Otherwise, you could get a false 0 reading.
Unlike the other bottles, the #2 bottle contains crystals that settle on the bottom. It takes a lot (more than the directions indicate) to mix them.

Another thing I would wonder is if the bio extract is effecting the cycle.

Best of luck

Meenu

If you use the tetra safe start (please be very careful to get this exact item, as there are others with similar names), then you add your fish into your tank at the same time you use the product. I didn't realize this and wasted a bottle of TSS.

You could try fish food as your ammonia source if you don't want to do the shrimp or TSS.

RookieAqua

Yeah I basically beat up my nitrate bottle #2. I have been told that several times about the nitrate test, but save putting the bottle in an indrustrial mixer there is no physical way I can mix/shake, generally beat up, that bottle any more then I already do

I was wondering about the bio Extract in the water conditioner as well, but I have had people swear that they have been able to cycle a tank using the same product I use. I just don't know. I am tempted to tear down both tanks and start over using a different conditioner just to see. But people have said no all dechlorinators/conditioners are basically the same the all have essentially the same ingredients ... I don't know call me strange but I think that might be the culprit. I mean it is really the only difference between my tanks and my neighbours tanks.

Dozey

A quote from Tetra: http://www.tetra-fish.com/sites/tetr...id=1276&cid=73
"The added ingredients help to reduce aquarium pollution by strengthening the bacterial bed."

Trying a product that does not disturb the natural bacteria development could certainly help. The ammonia you found does appear to be pure but I found very little information about the product (sounds like you are ok with it though).

Lucy

Not all water conditioners have bio-extract.
Other than that, I don't see a reason why your tank hasn't cycled.
Maybe do a good water change and use a plain ole' dechlorinator.
Test, and if need be, bring your ammonia back up to 4ppm.
I'm a fan of the add and wait method. That way there's no chance of ODing the tank with ammonia.
Don't add anymore ammonia until it drops to 1ppm, bring it back up to 4 and wait again.
Once you start to get a nitrite reading decrease the amount of ammonia you've been adding in 1/2.

Good luck, I hope you get this figured out. Cycling can be so frustrating.


Edit: Dozey! Good to see you.

RookieAqua

Thanks for the tetra link - well I guess no blaming the conditioner then...the bacteria gods must just be against me Anyone know a good bacteria dance ... will try anything

Meenu

a good bacteria dance? sure!

first you dress up like this

and then you move like this

Lucy

Imo, I still would.
Just because a company says it'll help doesn't mean it will.
There's several bacterial boosters on the market that do nothing but prolong the natural cycling of a tank.

RookieAqua

looks good ... I will give it a go, at this point it can't hurt right?

so that was dress up like

and move like

Got it ... will let you know if it works

jdhef

I don't know what the laws are in Canada, but here in the USA, dancing naked in the rain can land you in jail, so if it were me I would empty the tanks, refill with new dechlorinated water, let it run overnight then add Tetra SafeStart and my fish and be done with it!

Shawnie

ONLY if you get caught

and I agree id go the TSS route with new water filled up with tetra aqua safe conditioner..24 hours later add TSS and fish ...I lost patience since I found TSS LOL ...

thorpbrian

Yeah me too. I finally found TSS after diving into the deep end by adding fish before knowing about the nitrogen cycle. After a week the tank was cycled. I've used it for my other two tanks and had my tanks cycled in a week.

RookieAqua

Hmm, maybe I will try to see if I can find some. The only reason I have not tried a "bacteria in a bottle" method is that I have heard that they don't really work. The only one that got good reviews was Bio-Spira which of course only comes in the salt water version now, they freshwater version is no longer available. I'll start making some phone calls to see if I can get it locally, it not I will try to see if I can order some. Hagen products are big in the stores here, and I know that quite a few of the on-line stores won't ship to Canada so it might be hard to get a hold of, but I will give it a try.

Shawnie

bio spira is now reformed into tetra safestart and doesnt need refrigeration for FW tanks...so dont let them talk you into anything else but tetra safestart

omnitheforsaken

I agree.

Reset the tank so to speak. Buy your Tetra SafeStart and fish and add them both. I actually add the TSS about a week after I add my fish to be sure that there's some ammonia for it to utilize but that's probably not necessary. I have 3 tanks and used it on 2 of the 3 and it's work each time. I've also had to used it after I killed my bacteria with medication on my initial tank and again it worked like a charm. Add the TSS and forget about it. Make sure you get the right sized bottle as it's a one time use product. The largest bottle I've seen (about 8 oz) is for up to 70 gallons, the one below that is up to 30 and there is a smaller bottle but I've never seen it.

RookieAqua

Well I think I at last found the problem and a potential solution. I took my nieces to the local public aquarium (not a large one, small private owned) and spoke to one of the aquarium "keepers" that work there. When I told him the story of my tanks that just won’t cycle, he actually laughed; he said that they get at least 1 phone call a day saying the same thing. Basically this is what he said the water in our area has 2 main problems that most people do not know about. They are:

1. Our fresh water contains a slightly high salt content. Not significantly high, he said it would be equal to adding approximately 1/2 tsp of aquarium salt per gallon.

2. Our water company adds additional fluoride to our water ... great for people, not harmful to the fish (so he said) but can stall and or prevent cycling.

So solutions - I ran through everything I did thus far with him and his response was that I did not use enough mature media to combat the problems with the water. He said I needed at least twice the amount of mature media ... but more would be better. So tomorrow, Sunday, the aquarium is closed for their weekly cleaning of their tanks. He generously offered to set me up. He said come back tomorrow afternoon and he will have bags of substrate for me, he will also squeeze/wash out all their filters into some of their aquarium water for me (so that is at least 20-30 filter washings). He also said that since it is month end he will be changing out one complete filter sponge from the one of the 6 extremely large canister filters from the very large main freshwater aquarium and he will give me the entire sponge. I saw the sponges they use for those large canister filters ... it is huge at least 4-5x larger than the pieces of mature filter sponge I had used before. Here are the steps he told me to take:

1 - Do a partial water change in the tank exchanging my water for the aquarium water (with the washings) he will provide to me.
2 - Add the substrate he will provide for me - he said he will put the substrate into fine mesh bags that way since it won't match my current substrate I can easily remove it once the tank is cycled.
3 - Add the filter sponge directly to my tank, clipping it to the side or weighing it down with the substrate bags.

He told me he would provide me with enough mature media/filter washing water to cycle both my tanks. He also said that if my tanks are not cycled within the week to let him know, but he is positive that my tanks should be fully cycled within the week.

So I will let you all know the results of this new plan ... I really hope it works. But at least I seem to have an answer now.

Shawnie

great job!!! the extra media will help allot....but I disagree on the water...beneficial bacteria isnt free floating in your water enough to do anything for a cycle process..all you will be getting is his dirty water and his ph ...both of which could cause an issue with your tanks and also, we have a ton of flouride in our city water as well...not sure if that would play a positive or negative role or not so thats interesting to find more opinions on that...
I do wish you well tho!

thorpbrian

That sounds like it should work well to me.