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Freshwater Beginners A place where freshwater aquarium fish beginners can go to post their questions and hopefully get responses from those more experienced. Also check out the Freshwater Fish Beginner's Guide and Aquarium Setup Guides. Setting up a new freshwater aquarium can be a rather large project and you want to make sure you do it right the first time. If you need help with your fish tank please don't be afraid to ask questions. That's what this fish forum is all about!

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Old November 2nd, 2009  
Fish Keeper
 
That's a pretty cool site, It's a neat idea too.
abc123d30 is offline  
Old November 2nd, 2009  
Fish Master
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by yhbae View Post
Doh... Looks like I made a mistake deploying the last night's build. It wasn't working properly. I just fixed it - sorry about that.

You will find that this build will no longer complain about your black phantom/cherry combo. This is the second time I am hearing the Fluval plus series - those are not the same as "I" series internal filters, correct?
I don't know about the 'I' series filters; what brand are they?
I tried to 'stock' my tank again now, and it is definitely working - Good job!
Blub is offline  
Old November 2nd, 2009  
Fish Helper
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blub View Post
I don't know about the 'I' series filters; what brand are they?
I tried to 'stock' my tank again now, and it is definitely working - Good job!
Here's the link to the filter I was referring to:

http://www.bigalsonline.com/BigAlsUS...internalfilter

On their web, I don't see any plus series filters...
yhbae is offline  
Old November 2nd, 2009  
Fish Master
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by yhbae View Post
Here's the link to the filter I was referring to:

http://www.bigalsonline.com/BigAlsUS...internalfilter

On their web, I don't see any plus series filters...
That's definitely not it.

http://www.everythingforpets.com/flu...289.dept.1180/ here's what I'm refering to. The larger models are on the right, if you scroll down a bit.

Last edited by Blub; November 2nd, 2009 at 05:37 PM.
Blub is offline  
Old November 2nd, 2009  
Fish Helper
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blub View Post
That's definitely not it.

here's what I'm refering to. The larger models are on the right, if you scroll down a bit.
Link please?
yhbae is offline  
Old November 2nd, 2009  
Fish Master
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by yhbae View Post
Link please?
Sorry I must have accidentilly not added it/deleted it! Its in now.
Blub is offline  
Old November 2nd, 2009  
Fish Helper
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blub View Post
Sorry I must have accidentilly not added it/deleted it! Its in now.
Cool. I'll add it for the next build. Thanks!

What's new for 2009 11 04 build:

This is a minor release - only fish DB has been updated without code changes.

- Added Dwarf Pencilfish.
- Added Golden/Brown Pencilfish.
- Added Spotted Hillstream Loach.
- Added Altum Angel.
- Added Crayfish.
- Added Weather/Dojo Loach.
- Minimum temp requirement for Dwarf Loach has been reduced down to 24C.
- Minimum tank height requirements for snails have been reduced significantly.
- All species that pair up for breeding have been marked as either bottom or bottom/medium level occupants. This is important because aqadvisor.com calculates territory aggressions for bottom level occupants right now.
- Updated attributes for Green Terror.
- Updated attributes for Firemouth.
- Updated attributes for Oscar.
- Updated attributes for JD.
- Added Hagen Fluval Plus series filters.
- Total number of filters in DB has been increased to 109.
- Total number of species in DB has been increased to 301.

Please try out www.aqadvisor.com as usual.

Last edited by Lucy; November 4th, 2009 at 11:44 AM. Reason: merging posts
yhbae is offline  
Old November 4th, 2009  
Fish Master
 
YHBAE, I also like your site very much. You've put a lot of work into it. However, I completely agree with Shawnie that no calculator can be perfect, and that nothing beats old-fashioned research.

I think it is great that you are going to add the warning. I also think it is great that you link this site and others, so that those getting started have an idea where to start with their research.
Meenu is offline  
Old November 4th, 2009  
Fish Helper
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommybaby295 View Post
YHBAE, I also like your site very much. You've put a lot of work into it. However, I completely agree with Shawnie that no calculator can be perfect, and that nothing beats old-fashioned research.

I think it is great that you are going to add the warning. I also think it is great that you link this site and others, so that those getting started have an idea where to start with their research.
Yes, I have enough experience to admit that the calculator is far from perfect. I have some free time right now, and this is something I wanted to try out for the past couple of years so I took it as a challenge. I want to see how far I can push this thing. I've done my share of research too during the past couple of years...

The build I just pushed has the warning now. It promotes people to go back to their own fav forums and look for more info.

What's new for 2009 11 06 build:

- Bottom area territorial aggression algorithm has been further refined. Although I feel this version of the algorithm does a pretty good job in determining the territorial aggression issues amongst aggressive species, aggression/territory data in fish DB may not be 100% accurate. If you feel the calculator reports wrong results, please let me know!
- Added Asian Arowana.
- Added "Note" column in DB. This allows aqadvisor.com to display species specific notes regardless of the group compatibility such as caution notes.
- Added a caution note for Chinese Algae Eater.
- Added a caution note for Crayfish. <-- not done with this guy yet!
- Male and female bettas are marked as unsuitable combo in the same tank using exception flags.
- New feature - water change schedule has been implemented. Water change volume is based on the total bioload of the selected species. Let me know if % looks ok from your perspective.
- New feature - "max number" field has been implemented. As a first application, maxmimum of only 1 male betta can be held regardless of the size of the aquarium.
- Added 125g Lake Tang species tank under suggested tank links.
- Added a short article about water chemistry for beginners.
- Added a short article about algae eaters.
- Added a short article about ICH treatment using high temperature method.
- Added Eclipse System 3/6/12 series filters.
- Added Eclipse System 3/6/12 series aquarium tanks.
- Fixed a bug - "Remove" without any quantity would not display the correct % unless refreshed the screen again.
- Total number of filters in DB has been increased to 112.
- Total number of aquarium tanks in DB has been increased to 51.
- Total number of species in DB has been increased to 302.

Please try out www.aqadvisor.com if you are interested.

You can also leave some suggestions/feedback on this forum.

I will be releasing another build tomorrow night. If you want to see any species or filters currently missing from the list for tomorrow's build, please let me know ASAP.

Thanks!


-------------------------------------------------------

What's new for 2009 11 09 build:

- Added Black Diamond Cichlid/Marakeli Cichlid/Paratilapia Polleni
- Added Glo Fish.
- Added Longear Sunfish.
- Added Pumpkinseed Sunfish.
- Added Red Hump Eartheater.
- Added Red Stripped Eartheater.
- Added The Pearl Eartheater.
- Added Ornate Bichir.
- Added Delhezi Bichir.
- Added Ryukin Gold Fish.
- Added Silver Prochilodus.
- Added Mega Clown Pleco
- Added Tiger Pleco.
- Added Chocolate Zebra Pleco.
- Added Angelicus Pleco.
- Added Northern Mountain Swordtail.
- Created alias for Red Cherry Shrimp as Cherry Shrimp.
- Silver Dollars are marked as fin nippers.
- Attributes for Clown Loaches have been updated. Min tank size required was set at 36x12, ouch!
- Added Aqueon QuietFlow series filters.
- Fixed a bug - sometimes temp/pH/hardness range recommendations were not displayed.
- Total number of filters in DB has been increased to 116.
- Total number of species in DB has been increased to 320.

Link to the tool: www.aqadvisor.com


----------------------------------------------------------------------

What's new for 2009 11 12 build:

- Added Panda Tetra.
- Added Red Lined Torpedo/Denisoni Barb.
- Added Denisoni Barb.
- Added Weeksi Bichir.
- Added Palmas Bichir.
- Added Marbled Bichir.
- Added Buettikoferi Bichir.
- Added Jurupari Eartheater.
- Added Midas Cichlid.
- Added Red Devil Cichlid.
- Added Flowerhorn.
- Added Trimac.
- Added Clown Knife.
- Added Pristella/X-Ray Tetra.
- Added 120g high tank, measuring 48x24x24 inches.
- Updated sizes for all existing Bichirs.
- Bumblebee Goby is marked brakish.
- Minimum number for Cyprichromis Leptosoma has been increased from 8 to 10.
- Lowered all tetra minimum requirement from 6 to 5.
- Lowered all barb minimum requirement from 6 to 5.
- Filtration capacities have been relaxed just a bit.
- Fixed a bug - navigation bar URL and URLs in the articles were broken.
- Added an article "Introduction to mbuna species".
- Total number of tanks in DB has been increased to 52.
- Total number of species in DB has been increased to 335.

Link to the calculator: aqadvisor.com

What's new for 2009 11 15 build:

- Added Ornate Rainbowfish.
- Added Australian Rainbowfish.
- Added Neolamprologus Pulcher.
- Added Freshwater Flounder/Freshwater Sole/Hogchoker
- Added Scat.
- Added Knight Goby.
- Added Balloon Molly.
- Added Blue Tetra.
- Added Agassiz Cory.
- Added Green neon tetra.
- Peacock Gudgeons minimum tank footprint requirement has been reduced to 20x10 (typical 10g tank).
- Recognises and displays appropriate note (about need for overstocking for crowd control) when mbuna species are selected.
- Note added to N Brichardi and N Pulcher that they are collective nursery species.
- 55g mbuna stocking suggestion has been updated to allow some overcrowding/overstocking.
- New feature - aqadvisor now has the ability to recognize species with collective nursery behaviors and will calculate required terriroty accordingly. Currently, only three species are marked with this behaviour - Neolamprologus Brichardi, Neolamprologus Pulcher and Neolamprologus Multifasciatus.
- Fixed a bug - didn't always display cautionary notes for all species.
- Total number of species in DB has been increased to 347.

Please click aqadvisor.com to use the tool.

What's new for 2009 11 17 build:

- Added Banded Rainbowfish.
- Added American/Florida Flagfish.
- Added Featherfin Catfish/Synodontis eupterus.
- Added Orange Chromide.
- Added Green/Banded Chromide.
- Added Emerand Green Cory/Brochis splendens.
- Added Betta Imbellis.
- Added Odessa Barb.
- Added Chanchito/Australoheros oblongum.
- Added Flame/Fire/Von Rio Tetra.
- Added Sun/Eclipse/Bullseye/Golden Red Tail/Solar Catfish.
- Added False Siamese(Epalzeorhynchus sp.).
- Sailfin Molly size has been adjusted up from 4 to 6 inches.
- Fahaka Puffer has been marked as species that need to be raised alone without tankmates.
- Skunk Loach has been marked as "aggressive" requiring 5 of them to spread aggression.
- Amano shrimp scientific name has been updated to Cardina multidentata.
- Lowered max pH for all tetra species to 7.6 from 7.8.
- Fancy goldfish minimum tank size has been reduced to 48x18 footprint.
- Chinese Algae Eater attributes have been updated. It is now little more frendly towards smaller species than before. (But still aggressive).
- Common Pleco attributes have been updated. It is now little more frendly towards smaller species than before.
- Goldfish temperature requirement has been updated to 19-23C.
- Minimum temperature requirement for Boeseman Rainbowfish has been reduced to 25 from 27.
- Will suggest two water changes per week instead if change volume is larger than 45%.
- Will display a serious warning with a suggestion to get a larger tank if stocking level is above 150%.
- Added Ehim Aquaball series filters.
- Added 110g high tank.
- Added Eclipse Corner 5 tank.
- Added Eclipse Hex 5 tank.
- Added a new article: "55g aquarium tank fish stocking suggestions for beginners"
- Total number of tanks in DB has been increased to 55.
- Total number of filters in DB has been increased to 118.
- Total number of species in DB has been increased to 368.

Question - Cannot find dimension for 30g hex tank. Can whoever requested this get back to me please?

Please Click on this link to try out the latest version.

Last edited by Shawnie; November 17th, 2009 at 09:23 PM. Reason: merging back to back posts
yhbae is offline  
Old November 17th, 2009  
Fish Master
 
30 gallon hex was me, either here or somewhere else.

each side of the hex is 10.5 inches and it's 25 inches tall.
Jaysee is offline  
Old November 17th, 2009  
Fish Helper
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaysee View Post
30 gallon hex was me, either here or somewhere else.

each side of the hex is 10.5 inches and it's 25 inches tall.
Great! Thanks
yhbae is offline  
Old November 21st, 2009  
Fish Helper
 
I'm going to be pushing another build out in about 24 hours. If you'd like me to add any new species, please let me know here or by private message. Thanks.
yhbae is offline  
Old November 21st, 2009  
Fish Keeper
 
could this thread be moved to the aquarium stocking section and stickied? ive tried to reference it many times but have a heck of a time finding the thread.

Last edited by Shawnie; November 21st, 2009 at 06:51 AM. Reason: language :)
namehater is offline  
Old November 21st, 2009  
Fish Master
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by namehater View Post
could this thread be moved to the aquarium stocking section and stickied? ive tried to reference it many times but have a heck of a time finding the thread.

Ill check with mike about the sticky part, but in the meantime if you subscribe to it, you will always be able to find it
Shawnie is offline  
Old November 22nd, 2009  
Fish Helper
 
What's new for 2009 11 22 build:

- Added Rosy/Rosy Finned Tetra.
- Added Fantail Goldfish.
- Added Black Moor Goldfish.
- Added Oranda Goldfish.
- Added Crown Pearlscale Goldfish.
- Added Red Tail Catfish.
- Added 30g hex tank.
- Figure Eight Puffer has been marked as brakish.
- Fancy/Ryukin Goldfish minimum tank size has been reduced to 30x12 footprint.
- Fancy/Ryukin Goldfish size has been adjusted down from 9 to 8 inches.
- Raphael Catfish bioload has been adjusted slightly down.
- Updated data for Peacock Eel. Size has been downscaled to 8 inches from 12, aggression has been downscaled to peaceful.
- Added more Eheim Aquaball series filters.
- Added Eden series filters.
- Added an article - "Cycling a new tank".
- More accurate formula has been used to calculate 2 water changes split from a larger water change.
- Water change recommendations have been reduced by about 10%.
- Fixed a bug - sometimes User Defined Filter Capatity was changing by itself when it wasn't expected.
- Total number of filters in DB has been increased to 125.
- Total number of species in DB has been increased to 374.

My apology - I wasn't able to add all species requested for this build due to lack of time. I promise, those will be added for the next build.

As usual, please check out the link AqAdvisor for the tool.
yhbae is offline  
Old November 22nd, 2009  
Moderator
 
Looks like a really neat tool. I'm ok with stickying it since it has that disclaimer at the bottom of the aqadvisor page:

"To new fish keepers: AqAdvisor.com is a tool/calculator that helps you determine your stocking plans. It does not guarantee that the selected species will get along 100% in the long run. We are making every efforts to identify potential problems and display them as warnings, but this takes time as knowledge database grows. Through weekly releases, this aspect will improve gradually. We highly recommend you to do further research and discuss results on your favorite forums and websites."

One thing you might want to add to the results page maybe are links to various sites with more info on the species so folks could learn more about the species they have entered into the calculation.

If we sticky it we need to put a note in it saying something such as "Fishlore doesn't necessarily endorse or agree with the recommendations on the following link... Use the tool to get general stocking recommendations but do your own research BEFORE buying any species."

Last edited by Mike; November 22nd, 2009 at 09:55 PM.
Mike is offline  
Old November 23rd, 2009  
Fish Helper
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike View Post
Looks like a really neat tool. I'm ok with stickying it since it has that disclaimer at the bottom of the aqadvisor page:

"To new fish keepers: AqAdvisor.com is a tool/calculator that helps you determine your stocking plans. It does not guarantee that the selected species will get along 100% in the long run. We are making every efforts to identify potential problems and display them as warnings, but this takes time as knowledge database grows. Through weekly releases, this aspect will improve gradually. We highly recommend you to do further research and discuss results on your favorite forums and websites."

One thing you might want to add to the results page maybe are links to various sites with more info on the species so folks could learn more about the species they have entered into the calculation.

If we sticky it we need to put a note in it saying something such as "Fishlore doesn't necessarily endorse or agree with the recommendations on the following link... Use the tool to get general stocking recommendations but do your own research BEFORE buying any species."
Thank you - I'll add an equivalent note in my app and let you know when it is done.
yhbae is offline  
Old November 26th, 2009  
Fish Helper
 
What's new for 2009 11 26 build:

- Added Fire Eel.
- Added Tyre Track Eel.
- Added Clarias/Walking Catfish.
- Added Jaguar Cichlid.
- Added Dutch Ram.
- Added Furcata Rainbowfish.
- Added Banded Archerfish.
- Added Panda Dwarf Cichlid (Apistogramma nijsseni)
- Added Rainbow Cichlid.
- Added Giant Gourami.
- Added Uaru Cichlid.
- Added Greenstreaked Eartheater/Cupid Cichlid.
- Added Gangetic Leaffish/Nandus Nandus.
- Added Stripped Raphael Catish.
- Added Blue Acara (Aequidens latifrons).
- Added Aequidens Coeruleopunctatus.
- Added African Clawed Frog.
- Bioload for Ember Tetra has been increased slightly.
- All Apistogramma species have been marked as territorial during breeding time.
- Aggression for Chocolate Cichlid has been brought down by one level.
- Bioload for Figure Eight Puffer has been increased significantly as they have been identified as messy species.
- Bioload for dwarf puffer has been increased significantly as they have been identified as messy species.
- Carinotetraodon Imatator has been removed from the species DB.
- Minimum tank size for green spotted puffer has been increased to 48x12.
- Temperature requirement for Odessa Barb has been updated.
- Attributes for Spotted Raphael Catfish has been updated and its Scientific name - Agamyxis pectinifrons.
- Fixed a spell error for White Cloud Mountain Minnow.
- Increased minimum tank sizes for larger Julidochromis species.
- Added "Water Change Factor" attribute to all species. Some species are more sensitive to nitrate levels than others hence this attribute will allow aqadvisor.com to report larger water changes to these species even if bioload doesn't warrant it. First of the species to use this attribute are Dwarf Puffer, Figure Eight Puffer and Green Spotted Puffer.
- Added Eheim 2071, 2073 and 2075 filters.
- Added Interpet PF series filters.
- Added 38g tank.
- Spelling mistake "brakish" has been fixed.
- Water change split algorithm has been refined once more with more special case checking.
- Water change recommendations have been reduced by another 10%.
- Total number of tanks in DB has been increased to 57.
- Total number of filters in DB has been increased to 132.
- Total number of species in DB has been increased to 393.

I could not find much info about Chuco Godmani cichlid. If the requester can provide some URL for me to look into, I'd appreciate it.

Please go to AqAdvisor site to access the latest build.
yhbae is offline  
Old November 26th, 2009  
Fish Helper
 
Wow, this is really cool. I can tell how important this is to you to make a useful and reliable tool and I thank you for your efforts. I can't wait to see how your site evolves over time!
FishStix is offline  
Old November 27th, 2009  
Fish Helper
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FishStix View Post
Wow, this is really cool. I can tell how important this is to you to make a useful and reliable tool and I thank you for your efforts. I can't wait to see how your site evolves over time!
I can't wait either...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike View Post
If we sticky it we need to put a note in it saying something such as "Fishlore doesn't necessarily endorse or agree with the recommendations on the following link... Use the tool to get general stocking recommendations but do your own research BEFORE buying any species."
Please check at the bottom of the main screen. I've added similar message at the bottom with one exception. I've generalized it so that it applies to all forums - I have a feeling that all forums will eventually want to see this paragraph.

Let me know what you think of it.

Last edited by Butterfly; December 20th, 2009 at 10:41 AM. Reason: back to back posts- please use edit button to add info
yhbae is offline  
Old December 1st, 2009  
Fish Helper
 
What's new for 2009 12 01 build:

- Added Lyretail Killifish.
- Added Celebes Rainbowfish.
- Added Rainbow Snakehead.
- Added Sawbwa Barb.
- Added Chuco/Southern Checkmark Cichlid.
- Added Swift/Hangel Rasbora.
- Added Golden Wonder/Striped Panchax Killifish.
- Added Black Cory.
- Added Golden Bristlenose Pleco.
- Added Bumblebee Catfish.
- Added Platinum Hatchet.
- Added Phuket Loach.
- Added Sajica Cichlid.
- Added Shark Catfish.
- Added Sixbar Distichodus.
- Added Celebes Halfbeak.
- Added Dwarf/Tail Spot Pygmy Cory.
- Added Tiger Loach.
- Added Sailfin Pleco.
- Added Red Bellied Pacu.
- Added Black Pacu.
- Added Blue Tilapia.
- Added Zebra Tilapia.
- Added Redeye Tilapia.
- Added Redfin Tilapia.
- Added Nile Tilapia.
- Updated "mouth size" for all plecos. They have been adjusted to smaller sizes so that they are no longer seen as threats to smaller species up to certain point.
- Updated "mouth size" for all cory catfishes. They have been adjusted to smaller sizes.
- Updated size of Dojo Loach from 10 inch to 8 inch.
- Slightly decreased the bioload of Dwarf Puffer.
- Bioload for Fahaka Puffer has been increased significantly as they have been identified as messy species.
- Bioload for Green Spotted Puffer has been further increased.
- Minimum number for cories have been adjusted down from 5 to 4.
- Updated "mouth size" for Angelfish to be a bit smaller. Most of the cories are no longer a threat.
- Filtration capacity for all filters have been re-evaluated and increased by 10%.
- Added Hagen Stringray series filters.
- Added JBL CristalProfi series filters.
- Added Eheim 2211 filter.
- New Feature: "Start Over" link has been added.
- New Article: "How does AqAdvisor.com work?" has been added.
- Total number of filters in DB has been increased to 140.
- Total number of species in DB has been increased to 422.
- Added a new logo, drawn by my little daughter! I'm proud of her and her work.

To access this site, please click on AqAdvisor site.
yhbae is offline  
Old December 2nd, 2009  
Fish Keeper
 
Good stuff, I love how easy it is to change things.

For new people like me, it be really helpful if there was a page for each fish that included all the important details. Nothing fancy like a description or such but something that a person could look at quickly. Picture never hurt either.

Bookmarked!
mosin360 is offline  
Old December 2nd, 2009  
Fish Helper
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mosin360 View Post
Good stuff, I love how easy it is to change things.

For new people like me, it be really helpful if there was a page for each fish that included all the important details. Nothing fancy like a description or such but something that a person could look at quickly. Picture never hurt either.

Bookmarked!
Yup, request to display profile has been quite popular. It is on my wishlist already but I do need to think about it carefully first. Pictures are problematic too since I cannot just take other site pictures and display them due to copyright issues. I'll look into it sometime down the road.

Thanks for the suggestion!
yhbae is offline  
Old December 2nd, 2009  
Fish Keeper
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by yhbae View Post
Yup, request to display profile has been quite popular. It is on my wishlist already but I do need to think about it carefully first. Pictures are problematic too since I cannot just take other site pictures and display them due to copyright issues. I'll look into it sometime down the road.

Thanks for the suggestion!
I'm sure some people on this site would be willing to let you use their own pictures of their fish
abc123d30 is offline  
Old December 2nd, 2009  
Fish Helper
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by abc123d30 View Post
I'm sure some people on this site would be willing to let you use their own pictures of their fish
Haha that would be lots of pictures from users. May be that might work in the long run - just let users submit their own pictures of the species...

Interesting idea!
yhbae is offline  
Old December 3rd, 2009  
Fish Master
 
You can use any photos from my photo album if you want them. There are pics of the fish listed in my profile and some goldfish.
jdhef is offline  
Old December 3rd, 2009  
Fish Master
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdhef View Post
You can use any photos from my photo album if you want them. There are pics of the fish listed in my profile and some goldfish.
Hey, not to hijack the thread, but what LFS do you go to?
Jaysee is offline  
Old December 3rd, 2009  
Fish Helper
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdhef View Post
You can use any photos from my photo album if you want them. There are pics of the fish listed in my profile and some goldfish.
Thanks will note this down.
yhbae is offline  
Old December 3rd, 2009  
Fish Master
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaysee View Post
Hey, not to hijack the thread, but what LFS do you go to?
I get my fish form "The Aquarium Center" in Blackwood NJ. It's not far off RT 42 on Blackwood-Clementon Road.
jdhef is offline  
Old December 3rd, 2009  
Fish Master
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdhef View Post
I get my fish form "The Aquarium Center" in Blackwood NJ. It's not far off RT 42 on Blackwood-Clementon Road.
......is it worth a 2 hour round trip?
Jaysee is offline  
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