sheamurai

Hi
I just finished stocking my tank - some will say it's overstocked, but everyone is getting along fine and I intend to keep on top of my maintenance.
How long does it take before you can consider your tank established?
How long does it take for your fish to really adapt to your tank/tankmates and you no longer feel the need to count everyone in the morning to make sure they are all present and accounted for?

Shawnie

imo an established tank is 3-4 months of on target readings... 0 -0-under 20
but mini cycles can happen at any time..even years later if proper tank maintenance isnt kept up

I dont think you can ever not take head count but as long as you havent broken any rules of thumb, and stock with fish that are compatible , a couple months of watching to be sure....if you have broken rules and have fish that normally arent recommended to be together, you always will be doing head counts as it could change at any moment..even months after being together

jdhef

Wow, your profile says that you have 2 male betta's in your 77 gallon tank. That's just asking for trouble.

harpua2002

+1.
Sadly, I think they will kill each other eventually.

sheamurai

Well, I've certainly bent a few rules of stocking...but my readings have been steady, and I've returned the fish that were too ahhh hungry.
All I'm really worried about now is how their behavior will change as they attain their adult size? Will the Gourami or Angel eat my Cardinal Tetras as they get bigger? Are my two bettas not fighting only because they are still too immature?
Sounds like its going to be just wait and see...but I didn't REALLY expect any different - but I WAS hoping...

sheamurai

Beleive it or not, the two bettas hardly look at each other. Its the Angel and the Gourami that have been mixing it up with the one betta. I've been watching them closely, and those three already aren't nearly as confrontational as they were upon introduction.
I wouldn't have tried it except I read that if the tank was big enough, and you didn't have one overly agressive betta, that they just divide up tank territory between them and keep to themselves...
Time will tell...

peacemaker92

two bettas in a 77g? Not bad. To answer your question about the Gourami or Angel eating up your Cardinals, they wouldn't eat your cardinals if your cardinals have been in the tank longer than the Gourami or Angels. It shouldn't be a problem from what I heard from members here. Normally, they wouldn't eat anything that can't fit in their mouth.

Hope that helps Good luck and keep us updated with pictures!

pepetj

I also think as Shawnie: four weeks of steady zero readings of ammonia and nitrites with expected readings for nitrates = stable tank.

Personally I think you could pull this off. I suggest you keep a plan B (and maybe a C too) at hand (one or two cycled tanks with similar water parameters). There have been many reports of Angelfish snacking small sized fish such as Neon and Cardinal Tetras. That said, it depends a lot on the temperament of particular fish. Keeping two male Bettas in small tank is almost certainly a deadly gamble but it might work in a big enough tank (or not).

I don't think you are overstocked. In my opinion you should keep a ratio of two females per male platty and at least five or six Harlequins and five or six Glass Catfish. The Glass Catfish are more of middle dwellers; the Bettas are more of top dweller fish; the Otos are like bottom dwellers. Then Cardinals, Harlequins, Platties will likely school at neutral/safe territories in the tank. I am concerned about the Angelfish and Gourami as adults though. I won't comment on the Hillstream loaches since I don't know enough about them.

Maybe upgrading with a back-up sponge filter can help you manage your bio-load in a safer way.

Pepetj
Santo Domingo

aquarist48

Good morning. My idea of an established tank is 6 months to a year old. It took me 2 years to finally find fish that got along, while keeping all of my readings in line on my 155g tank. (not to mention the dent it put in my wallet and the loss of fish). Too, I was without Fish Lore You'll know when it's right. Everything will just click into place as long as you have some guide lines to follow and keep up with the maintenance.

As for two male bettas in the same tank... lol that's all I'm saying.
Best of luck!
Ken

sheamurai

peacemaker - the Cardinals have indeed been in the tank longer than the Angel or Gourami. I used to have more, but my Killifish (which I have since returned to the FS ate the smaller ones, sigh). Nice to hear I can be hopeful of them remaining unmunched. I do have pics in the Member Gallery.
pepetj - I do have a plan B and plan C, but it was more for if/when the bettas didn't get along...I don't have a backup plan for hungry adult Angel or Gourami...I will have to think on it. The platy's were sold by the pair, the glass cats were sold in 4's, so thats why I have the numbers of those I have. I don't remember how they were selling the Rasboras, but I bought only 3 at first, but they were skittish, so I bought one more, and now they are fine - they and the Cards don't even school up half the time. The Hillstreams are the mostly bottom dwellers as well, they don't bother anyone and no one bothers them. I do have a back up filter, but its in the box, not running...its more for short term problems than extra bio-management...hmmmm...you think I should run it as well as my canister...hmmmm

Anyway, so far everyone is getting along - I'm hoping this will turn into an established community because I just LOVE the mix of fish I have. It's very visually interesting in colour alone, let alone the different personalities and fish shenanigans that are always going on. I love my tank! And judging by the people here who have been fishkeeping for far longer than I, its a love affair thats not going to fade away...

peacemaker92

Wow Strong words there! Fish keeping IS really worth it all. Trust me, I've seen it, smelled it, heard it and even tasted it! I'm so addicted to fish keeping now, until every fish store I visit, I spend a minimum of 30 mins or an hour there. haha well, glad you love this hobby. Really hope to see pictures of your tank soon

harpua2002

This is not necessarily true. I don't think that cardinals will be eaten just because of the size they attain as adults, and they will reach adult size more quickly than the angel (assuming the angel is a juvie). Anything smaller, however, will probably be eaten. Neons and other fish of that size are going to be fair game if the angel can catch them. Angels don't care that they grew up together.

I lost an entire school of adult rummynose tetras (about 12) in the 120 gallon because of a hungry festivum and severums. They had been fine together for over 8 months.

peacemaker92

Wow! An entire school That's crazy... Sorry to hear about that.

gmen4life

MY AFRICAN TANK IS A WARZONE AT TIMES but that is part of the fun with them i have an odd mixture in my 55 comuity tank i have a rts 2 silver dollars one angel fish 2 mollies and 1 platty and all is well so far

sheamurai

For those of you who are wondering how things are working out with two male betta in my tank - here are a couple pics of feeding time today just a few minutes ago. There were a few tense moments during the introduction of the second betta a couple days ago, but he seems to be settling in nicely.

In this one, you can hardly see the second betta, he is in the back corner swimming towards the camera - not flared at all even tho the blue male betta and angelfish are in front of him.

Shawnie

I fear for these fish..even in a bigger tank...putting fems with fems and even fems with males, is so risky..this IMO is a death sentence for one of these beautiful boys without a need for either to be together.....not only that , its cruel IMO ...they have it in their genes to kill another male and to be purposely put together isnt something that should be condoned or even taken a chance upon...im sorry if thats not an opinion you want to hear, and I really do hope they dont hurt one another, but thats living in a dream world with a disaster waiting to happen

sheamurai

Everyone is allowed an opinion...I can't beleive that it is "in their genes" to kill each other. In the wild, that would mean extinction. They fight for territory, and mates. They were pit against each other in their native land as fighters for sport, just like roosters and dogs - but thats not the case anymore - here, at least.
If I lose one these pretty fellas I will be sorry...but I'm optimistic (perhaps foolishly) that it will work out. I will be honest however if it doesn't so no one else repeats my mistake!

Butterfly

Hillstream Loaches need cooler temps and more highly oxygenated water than the other fish in your tank. Here's some more information on them.
http://www.loaches.com/species-index...-kweichowensis
I don't believe I've ever seen two male bettas peacefully co-exist for very long. Keep us posted on how your tank is going.
Carol

sheamurai

I've tried to compromise a bit for the Hillstreams - I've added two air stones for extra oxygen, and placed my spray bar to maximise current to try and help out a little bit. I dont think I can reduce the temperature much more and still have everyone else happy. Unfortunately, they don't tell you at the FS about individual species' needs, and I got these when I was at the buy-without-researching stage of stocking my tank. They seem happy enough - they are always wiggling around finding food - and, oddly enough, they don't hang out in the current very often. They're so cute tho when they have their little "covering" contests! I like them, but wouldn't buy them again for a community tank...

Butterfly

Yeah they do like to play games I had them in an unheated species tank for a long time and they were very interesting. Then had them in a larger tank with other loaches I could keep in cooler water. At least you learned they aren't for a general community tank
Carol

peacemaker92

That's cool! Two bettas in the same tank and just right in front of each other, they don't flare? That's amazing. I would respectfully disagree with the other members about the danger of putting these two males in together and support a bit of what sheamurai said. It may be dangerous, I know. But taking a chance can mean so much of a difference. Imagine, if they never fought if they were in the same tank they're whole life, that would be making a mark on betta history I think! haha

So I support you sheamurai! Just keep an eye on them in the next couple of weeks, and keep us updated. Good luck!

Lucy

For a couple of weeks? More like the life time of the fish.
We all know that no matter what the fish, if it's an aggressive species a close eye needs to be kept at all times otherwise there's a risk of injury or death.
Things could go well for months, then one day you wake up and.......

peacemaker92

Hmm.. I agree there I'll put my foot in my mouth this time

jdhef

Don't take this as an insult or anything, but why do you think it would stop anyone from repeating your mistake, since you aren't learning from previous peoples mistakes about putting to males together?

sheamurai

Mostly because when I googled it I couldn't find any reports of previous peoples mistakes. I never found a persons post or blog that tried to keep males. I came across two studies, but neither stated that it was impossible. I only have dial up so I only ran thru a couple pages and sites, so perhaps I missed something. However, if I had found one or two people who tried it and reported disaster, I would not have thought to put the second betta in the community tank, he would have gone directly into a 5 gallon, which is the backup plan if I see somone is having problems. I posted over in the betta forum, too, but no one there has stepped up with their personal experience.

and thanks Peacemaker - at least one person (besides me, lol) hopes that perhaps a betta can be socialised given the opportunity...

I wonder if any breeders are taking temperament into consideration in their breeding programs, as well as finnage and colour?

Shawnie

I commented on your other thread Just wondering... with a few personal experiences so not to hijack this one

jdhef

Sheamuria,

Did you ever wonder why in the fish store all of the other fish of one kind are in one tank, but the put the betta's in individual bowls?

jwokmuba2

i agree with not keeping the two betta fish together in one tank, its like trying to take a dog who has been breed for fighting, killing, and putting them in a cage with another dog breed the same way. nothing evergood comes out of this. let just say that i have a 67 lb pit bull terrier, that was not breed in this way, in my house that i delivered and raised from a pup, she was never taught agression or fought in any way and now she plays lays and eats with my 7 lb dutchhound. i wish that your could train your bettas this way but they are made this way, no changing it. good luck

peacemaker92

I respectfully reply, that's different. Because the fish store doesn't want to risk anything that could happen to the bettas and they know what would happen if they are placed in the same tank or bowl. But sheamurai is trying something here, he's willing to take the risk while the fish store isn't, they lose bettas and money if they put them in the same tank or bowl.

sheamurai

There's a bit of a difference between putting 2 bettas in a 77gal tank and putting 50 bettas in a 40 gal or whatever the FS uses.
In any case, I have since removed the one betta from the tank as he and the gourami have constantly been having issues. I'm considering returning the gourami, actually, since he's contantly after any of the fish in the tank, the betta is just the only one that wouldn't back down.
This will be my last post here, as I can't help but resent these personal questions (having no bearing on the issue I initial raised) being asked. As if I am purposely throwing these fish in together and waiting for one to die.
Good bye, FishLore