abs232

Hey all,

Found your website through some searching and though it would be a good thing to ask some people who have been in the hobby for a while.

I just bought a used 36 gallon corner tank off some friends and just set it up. I filled it with tap water and used aqua-safe tap water nuetralizer. The stuff that removes hard metals, chlorine, etc. Also, I have added some drops of water clearer as it was pretty nasty from the stirring around during the setup. I also have a Top fin 40 water filter with all new carbon and filter in the bag. The fish i have in there are 3 sunset pladdys, 1 rainbow shark and 2 swordtails. However, this morning after about 2 days i found one of my sword tails dead on the gravel. So now only 1 sword tail. However as soon as i got her she went right to the bottom and sat there. not very active from day one, but the description of her said she was innactive bottom fish. So i didnt think much of it. However the other swordtail is very active (so that confused me..)

Sometimes they are very active moving around playing (majority) the other times they are just sitting around floating in one spot or on the bottom underneath the objects ive put in the tanks ( real plants, petco ships/caves, etc)

I've been reading alot about the new setup process and am worried about all these things that can go wrong and ace my fish. And with the sword tail dead this morning, its not helping much. the pH is about 7.2-7.4 and my amonia is at 0 from the test kit (yellow). I havent checked the nitrate/nitrite as i dont have a kit yet for that planning on getting that tomorrow most likely.

Is there any tips or tricks to save my fish from the stress ive been reading? I know the tank has to set up and its inevitable to avoid this but as a noobie to this, its kinda worry-some to wake up and possibly see another dead fish.

Tony G.

Wecome to Fishlore!
it is very important you add some TSS(tetra safe start) to your tank right now. it is critical because your fish are creating ammonia and thats what probaby killed your sword tail this morning. also give it a good 20% water change and add some prime to lock up the ammo.
best of luck
keep us updated
tony

pepetj

Since you don't have reliable means to measure nitrite and nitrates, I suggest you do at least twice a day small water changes (say 10 or 15%?). If your swordtails were both males one of them likely killed the other (I made the same mistake). Keep using AquaSafe (it keeps ammonia in check as Prime does, as far as I know)

Wait until you get your test kit so you know if it is safe to add more fish. Congratulations on your corner tank. Most fishkeepers suggest a 48"Lx12"W to keep Rainbowshark. I keep mine in a 30"Lx18W tank and I can tell he/she is having a great time (almost full grown now). What is the footprint of your corner tank?

I would advice you either get Tetra SafeStart to cycle your tank with fish, In your situation that is the best option I know of.

If not possible, then go for the cheaper heterotrophic bacteria (e.g. Cycle, Stress-Zyme) and keep doing frequent small water changes (say every-other day) until your tank completes the cycle. Keep in mind you will need to add the "wrong" bacteria with each water change until your tank is fully cycled.

Pepe
Santo Domingo

Craig-D

It's hard to say what the problem is without knowing all of your water parameters. I see you don't know about the nitrogen cycle. I strongly suggest you learn about it either on this site or elsewhere. With an uncycled tank, you can expect more fish deaths in the near future unless you take necessary measures to prevent it while your tank cycles. I agree with the others above who have suggested Tetra SafeStart. It is a product that contains the bacterial necessary to cycle your tank. Instead of the process taking 1-2 months naturally, it'll take a week or less with TSS. It can be hard to find in stores though. You may have to get it online. You will know your tank is cycled when you show 0 ammonia and nitrites, with 5 or more PPM nitrates. In the meantime, start doing 50% water changes daily. Use a combination of NovAqua+ and Amquel+ as your water conditioner during waer changes. These two products together will eliminate all toxins harmful to your fish while you cycle the tank.

Some people on here swear by another product called Prime that is a competitor to Amquel+. It does the job too, but it has a drawback: it only detoxifies toxins for 24 hours. Amquel+ detoxifies them permanently. You only need use it again when new toxins arise in the water. Keep in mind that new toxins can very well appear in another 24 hours though because of all the fish you have. I cycled with only two fish, so I only needed to dose with Amquel+ twice a week while Prime still would have equired daily use. Either product will do the job though, so just choose either and use it as directed. Keep in mind that your testing will still show the presence of toxins when using these products. It's not a cause for concern. The toxins are in fact still there so that your biological filter can still feed on them, but they are no longer in a form that is harmful to fish.

aquarist48

Good morning. I really hate to hear about your fish loss. Many of us have been where you are dealing with new tank issues. First the nitrogen cycle (as mentioned above) is crucial to fish keeping and here is a link to help you understand it:
http://www.fishlore.com/NitrogenCycle.htm

Too keep your fish alive until your tanks cycles I suggest 30 to 50% daily water changes, add some Prime or Amquel + to detox the ammonia for a 24 hour period until it's time for the next water change. Even though you add one of these chemicals you will still get ammonia readings but it is actually ammonium which is less toxic to your fish.

Most people on this forum recommend the API Master Test Kit (liquid not the strips). It has tests for ammonia, nitrites and nitrates all included. Once you reach 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and 5-10 nitrates your tank is cycled.

Personally I do not recommend using Cycle or Stress Zyme. Cycle does not contain the necessary bacteria to maintain a cycle. When you stop using it chances are your cycle will crash and you'll have to start all over.
TSS is recommended also but it can be difficult to find in some areas. If you want to order it you can try www.drsfostersmith.com or www.thatfishplace.com. I know one of them has it. I've ordered from both companies and they are very reliable. I do not have personal experience with Tropical Safe Start (TSS).

Nova Aqua is a wonderful conditioner to remove heavy metals, chloramines, is a great stress reliever and adds slime coat to your fish. I use this and Amquel +. I have a bottle of Amquel + in front of me and it does NOT say that it lasts longer than a 24 hour period. It states not to does more than once in a 24 hour period. I would does with each water change once per day.

Best of luck. If we can help you more by all means don't hesitate to ask.
Take care!

abs232

Thanks for your help guys,

I didn't know about the product to help with jumpstarting the cycle. As for the nitrogen cycle, I do infact know about it but listed it as i don't because i don't fully understand it...I'll have to pick up some of the Tetra Safe. Now, do i combine that with a percentage of a water change or just let it ride out?

Also my water is smelling kinda brackish but the levels (except the nitrate/nitrite because i cant measure it yet) are all where they should be. I can't seem to remember if they have that kinda smell as when i was a kid my parents had a really nice one. Any insight on this?

The swordtails were male and female, i think. According the description the females have shorter tails, but i could be wrong. I thought the same thing maybe one killed the other. And thanks for liking the corner tank, ill have to post pictures once its all good and set up. As for the footprint, i dont know? They can leave carbon footprints? Sorry as i'm new to this.

Anything else? i'm going to pick up the stuff today hopefully! And is it true from what i read if i use that it'll help the cycle cut down to something like a week?

Craig-D

You have to go to the Kordon site's AmQuel page to get a better idea of how AmQuel works. The bottle itself says little. Prime is an ammonia binder whose effects wear off in 24 hours. AmQuel works differently. It breaks the atomic bonds of the elements that make up ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. The remaining pieces are not toxic to fish and are left to be consumed by the biological filter, which doesn't know the diffference. This is a permanent, irreversable process that does not undo itself in 24 hours. You only have to dose again with AmQuel when the fish produce new toxins in the water. Depending on how many fish are in the tank and the amount of water, this could take a day, 48 hrs, or a week.

For example, if you have 2 small fish in a 20 gallon tank, it's going to take longer than 24 hours for them to produce enough ammonia to register on a test kit. Prime would still require you to dose every 24 hours to retreat the past toxins the fish had already produced. AmQuel permanently treated their past toxins. So you need only treat what they newly produce going foward with it. Additionally, if you put more Amquel in that there are toxins for it to treat initially, the remaining amount remains in the water in inert form until new toxins emerge and then it detoxifies them as well.

AmQuel recommends you treat no more than once every 24 hours because its chemical process consumes oxygen in the water as it works. So if you put too much in too often, you start affecting the fishes' air supply.

Here's the short take on the nitrogen cycle: Two types of bacteria form your natural biological flter. Together they rid your tank of harmful ammonia and nitrites. After 2 weeks or so, one type of bacteria forms that consumes ammonia and their waste product is the equally toxic nitrites. After a month or more, a second form of bacteria appears that consumes nitrites and their waste product is nitrates. Nitrates are not toxic to fish in lower amounts (40 ppm or less, but 20 ppm or less is preferred by many here). You control nitrates via water changes. So a tank that has competed the cycle will have a reading of 0 ammonia and 0 nitries, but a reading of some nitrates (at least 5 ppm). That is your goal, as your fish are not safe until then.

When adding Tetra Safestart, you do not do water changes, as you would be removing some of the expensive bacteria you just added before it attaches to a surface. You let it ride out. It should completely cycle your tank in a week to 10 days or less (it cycled my 12 gallon in 4 days). If you get ammonia readings during that time and get nervous, you can add a detoxifing product, as it shouldn't interfere with the bacteria's process.

The term brackish refers to sodium content in the water and to my knowledge salt doesn't have a smell. If you are getting a "fishy" smell, that is most likely desolved waste products of the fish. That can be removed by using an activated carbon filter - just like what's in a Brita water filter for example.

harpua2002

Since this is a used tank and it sounds like you have used the old gravel, I'm hopeful that your cycle will be pretty short. I've cycled tanks in a matter of days with only a used Biowheel, and there should be a lot of beneficial bacteria left in the gravel, provided that it was kept wet when it was moved.

I agree that you should do a water change asap. I'd go for 50% to be safe. Don't vacuum the gravel or clean the filter at this time. Next, you need to pick up a test kit for nitrite and nitrate, and see where you are there. Your ammonia is still reading 0? If so, I'd suspect a nitrite spike. The good news about cycling with old gravel is that the bacteria should be able to catch up before too long. Be prepared to change a lot of water until it does.

abs232

It does have the old gravel, however I added about 15 pounds of gravel. And in between i cleaned the gravel pretty extensively. It also sat at my place for about a month until i could get everything i needed to set it up. So from what its looking like I am pretty much starting off on a new tank.

I called petsmart today to see if the had the new Tetra Safe Start material and of course they did not but they had an equal material that they suggested works as well. Its their own brand, i do believe this is what the reo refered me to

http://www.petsmart.com/product/inde...ductId=3433706

I will check other places for the tetra as thats what i'm really aiming for. I dont know much about a storebrand.

Let me know ASAP so i can make a move tonight. Thanks guys =)

Shawnie

welcome to fishlore!! great advice from many members...but No do not buy cycle(the product) its not the same and will not cycle your tank..most LFS will tell you they are the same, to make a sale...cycle needs to be added many times and will not live without being added....tetra safestart is the ONLY true live bacteria that can cycle a tank ....

gmen4life

ok see if you can get someone dirty media maybe your lfs or 20 percent daily water changes until you see no ammonia and like 10 to 20 nitrates api master test kit works great

abs232

Thanks alot guys, i was thinking the same thing that this cycle was not going to hold up and only be a quick fix. I will have to go hunting tonight to find this!

Aside from that, any other tips

harpua2002

You're right abs232. It is like starting a brand new tank. I wasn't quite clear on the timeframe between moving and setup, so that's why I posted what I did.

At this point, either Tetra Safe Start or used filter media/gravel would be the best option. Good luck!

Shawnie

that is a great suggestion , but remember, some fish stores do not keep their tanks prestine and barely keep them clean...you could be adding just a bunch of junk to your tank if the tanks are cycled or carry high ammonia/nitrites (not to mention disease as how many fish do you see with ICH at the store?)

gmen4life

very true its a risk if you live in ny ill give you some lol

abs232

So i picked up some Safe Start at a local fish store. Did like the box said and added it to the 36 gallon tank. The fish seemed to have perked up immediately and are still energetic from what I can see. It says to keep the light off for 48 hours after. But it seems like whatever was plauging them is fixing itself (hopefully for good) My amonia levels spiked a little.

I also got a nitrate/nitrite test kit and tested it before i put the Safe Start in. They were reading the first one above the lowest, Orange for Nitrate (i think) and blue/purple for Nitrite. Only thing that was different was my PH was about 7.6 and my amonia had spiked up a 2 levels on the chart to the green. Within the limits of what the booklet says for a new tank.

Will test more tomorrow.

Anything else you guys think or know with this information here? Or is it now just a waiting game?

Let me know! =)

Craig-D

My bottle of TSS doesn't say anything about keeping the lights off, so that's odd. Use of lights has no effect on bacteria, so it makes no sense. Anyway, TSS is suposed to be put it a newly set up aquarium when fish are first introduced. With your pre-existing bioload and high toxin levels, I'm curious to see how it responds. Either way, it is just a waiting game now. No water changes for at least a week, but you have to treat those high toxin levels or you will lose fish. Start dosing with AmQuel+ or Prime immediately. Neither should interfere with the TSS as they leave the ammonia and nitrites in a form still edible by the bacteria.

gmen4life

i would say get some used media from a reliable source

abs232

okay,

So i went out and bought tetra safe start and added it to the tank after adding the aqua safe water neutralizing agent from that company. The fish seemed to perk up right away, and dash around a little more. Hopefully this will continue. Right now they are all asleep. I gotta leave the light off for the next few days, so observations will be harder.

So I'm hoping now that i drove a long time to get this stuff, that it actually works! The reviews seemed good, and you guys seemed to recommend it.

Sadly, one of the sunset pladdy's died. He did look rougher than the others and for the past day has been loafing around and hiding. Hopefully the other two will hold strong with the sword tail and rainbow shark.

Also, I bought a nitrate and nitrite kit. The levels were all low and in the acceptable range. However my PH and Ammonia Levels had spiked up to 7.6 PH and 2 slides on the color for ammonia (to green). This was before i added any chemicals in the tank. I will check tomorrow to see if any changes have occurred.

Now how long do you think it will take for the system to start being able to sustain itself...?

Anything else you guys have for me based off the new information?

Craig-D

Getting a kit to test your water was wise. But please understand that there are no acceptable levels of ammonia and nitrite other than 0. Your platy likely died from ammonia poisoning. Start treating with AmQuel+ or Prime and reduce feedings to protect your fish until your tank is cycled. As for when TSS will cycle your tank, it varies based on each situation. Mine worked in 4 days, but I only started up my tank with 2 small fish. The longest I've heard TSS taking to cycle a tank is 10 days.

aquarist48

Good morning. Craig if you'll read my post #5 again you'll notice that I didn't mention that Amquel + is only good for a 24 hour period nor did I state that it stops working after a 24 hour period. I simply stated that the Amquel + will detox the ammonia during the 24 hour period until it's time for the next water change. I also suggested daily water changes. Kordon also suggests that Amquel + be added to all major water changes but only 1 dose in a 24 hour period.
Thanks for you help with the original post Take care and have a good day today

kimb

ABS232, I don't have experience with TSS, sadly it is not available here but from all I have read from those with positive results is NOT to test the water (I don't think you do treatments to water while in process either). Readings while using TSS can be all over the map, and probaby make you crazy. One of the moderators uses it all the time very successfully. If you enter TSS in the search box, you may be able to read some other posts regarding it. Sorry about the loss of your platy and good luck with the rest of the process.

Butterfly

Welcome to FishLore
Light has nothing to do with how the bacteria grows but is more calming and restful for the fish. If you didn't do this it doesn't matter sounds like they are feeling better already.
Your getting excellent advice. Let us know what you need
carol

Shawnie

TSS will NOT work properly with any of the ammonia detoxifiers....you should use them prior to adding TSS and once the TSS was added, you will starve the bacteria by using them..the reason being is they lower the ammonia to ammonium and although the tank will still cycle, it will not be as fast as TSS usually is as the die off of the starved bacteria, slows it down...TSS lives on ammonia not ammonium...

with that being said, the route you took was probably the right one as your ammonia was super high....to save your fish, the detoxifiers were probably a saving grace..but do not be surprised if the TSS doesnt cycle within a week I hope the rest of your fsh babys are ok !

abs232

Great guys, sorry about the kind of double post with the same jist of information, i did the quick reply and didnt see it pop up!

Anyway, I do believe they are more energetic and are more vivid since i added the safe start. All the levels have not been checked since i added the product. As for the lighting situation, it says on the back under tank preparation to turn off UV lights and Ozones for 48 hours. So to be safe under all conditions im just gonna leave it off for atleast 24 hours. I had it off for about 36 before hand as I was working and traveling. I would think that the light would actually help the bacteria grow, combined with this heat (81F right now)

As for the mixed post about water changes, it seems to be that since i added the product taking out the water would be essentially removing the bacteria that I need desperately for this to work. Also combined with that correct me if I'm wrong, but i should NOT add anything else unless its get dangerously high (ammonia relief, etc) and just ride out the cycle for the next few days?

I really appreciate all your help guys, keep the great info coming!

Craig-D

Sorry for any misunderstanding. But if you use AmQuel+ while cycling, you don't necessarily have to do daily water changes because after treatment, any excess AmQuel remains in the tank in inert form until new ammonia appears, and then it treats that too. This of course is dependent on the amount of fish your cycling with and their relative bioload. For example: two small fish in a 20 gallon tank will not produce detectable ammonia every 24 hours. When I was cycling my first tank using AmQuel+, I only had to do 2 water changes a week instead of daily ones thanks to AmQuel+. But I only had two small fish in there. Other situations will vary. It's important for all to understand that water testing will still show toxins as present while using AmQuel. They are in fact still there for the biofilter to eat, but they have been altered to be non-toxic to fish.

When I called Tetra, they also said not to use detoxifiers with TSS and I didn't (I didn't have to, as I never had an ammonia/nitrite reading while using it). But in retrospect I now disagree with them where Amquel+ is concerned because it clearly states it does not interefe with the biofilter's food supply.

Further, I must respectfully disagree with you on how AmQuel+ works. It is not a binder like Prime that works for only 24 hrs. and it does not convert ammonia into ammonium. AmQuel+ works by permanently and irreversably breaking the atomic bonds of the elements that make up ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. The resulting separated elements are not toxic to fish but are still consumable by the biofilter, which can't even tell the difference. This is why AmQuel+ does not interfere with the biofilter as it works.

Now it all makes sense. The TSS directions say to turn off UV sterilizers. That is not referring to your florescent tank light. That is a special machine that uses an internal UV bulb that kills free-floating pathogens and stuff in the water. ozone machines are something else too. You can use your tank light.

gsg623

I started my tank with the help of many on this site.Since you already have fish the thing you need to do is TEST daily with a Master test kit and do 50% water changes daily.

I cycled with fish and thats what got me through it w/o losing all my fish

kimb

Water changes are necessary if you have not used TSS. OP has added this product, so no changes until the end of the TSS (I believe 10 days). Testing during this phase just becomes confusing and frustrating as readings are all over the map. If TSS fails, then begin the daily water changes.