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July 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Addict
| Why are my fish dying? - water levels added.
Ok well those of you which check the fish memorial section will have seen that i keep loosing fish especially recently. and i have no idea why?
My pH: 8
Nitrites: 0 ammonia: 0
Nitrates: 10-20 depending on which tank.
I do weekly syphon/water changes.
and use water crystals to put in my water.
my fish are fed, flakes,bloodworm,tubifex, brine shrimp, daphnia, algae tablets, ground up krill, algae and bloodworm pellets. and the occasional piece of cucumber etc.
Im really baffled as to what im doing wrong as prince the most recent fish has been really good up until when i found him this morning he was eating when i fed last night, and ive seen no reason why my other fish are dying either.
My tanks are planted with various plants with gravel, ornaments and various filter systems.
my tanks are 25-26 in tempreture. and have there lights on for about 8-10 hours a day.
any help? im really starting to give up here 
Last edited by ladylouroll; July 6th, 2009 at 08:55 AM.
Reason: more info added | 
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July 2nd, 2009
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| | Moderator
| I'm sorry, I've seen your memorials.
Are the deaths happening in only one tank? | |
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July 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Master
| im also sorry and its happened so much to you
what are water crystals? and what are they made of? other than a tap water conditioner like prime, stress coat+, amquel+ , ammo lock or something along those lines, nothing else is needed ... | |
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July 2nd, 2009
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| | Moderator
| Im sorry to hear of your fish deaths as well.  Everything seems to be on target but as Shawnie mentioned the 'water crystals' that is the only thing that I do not do in my tank. I wonder what they are and if they are having the negative effect on your tank? | |
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July 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Addict
| i have been using "supa tap water crystals" instead of prime/stress coat. but have ordered 2x500ml of prime of the net, as i had troubles at work and was not able to afford it before now but i used them soley for about 1-2months before i discovered stress coat.
Its happened in 4 out of my 5 tanks. is was mainly in one but then the guppy in my first tank which i guess could well be unrelated and prince in my biggest tank today. | |
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July 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Addict
| shawnie the ingredients are:
Sodium Thiosulphate (Na2S2O3) 100%
if that helps at all? | |
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July 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| Quote:
Originally Posted by ladylouroll  Sodium Thiosulphate (Na2S2O3) 100% | How much of this product are you using and in what size tank? I have no idea what a sodium thiosulfate overdose would do to fish, but it sounds like you probably don't need to add much. From SkepticalAquarist: Quote:
Dechlorinating it is often the first concern with tapwater. Most commercial dechlorinators are based on plain sodium thiosulfate, Na2S2O3, a crystalline salt that generally comes pre-mixed with distilled water, usually in a 1% solution. At this strength, 10 drops (that's 0.5 cubic mm) will neutralize common municipal levels of chlorine in 10 gallons, turning the chlorine to harmless chloride ions and adding some molecules of sodium and sulfur to the water. Unreacted sodium thiosulfate that may be left over is pretty inert and harmless.
Two commercial brands that are plain sodium thiosulfate are Wardley's ChlorOut and Mardel's MarChlor.
If you needed large quantities of chlorine neutralizer, you could buy sodium thiosulfate less expensively in crystal form, directly from a manufacturer, such as Fishy Farmacy. DOC Johnson tells you how to mix up a stock solution at www.koivet.com in the "Medications" articles, under "Dechlorinator." Better get together with a few friends, because just 1 gram of crystals in distilled water makes a liter of 1% stock solution. At rates of one drop of stock solution to a gallon or two of chlorinated tapwater, that could be a lifetime's supply.
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July 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Addict
| i have been using the amount it says on the back of the packet. i may have been using a little bit too much (around 1/2G-1G) as im a bit worried about under doing it. do you think that could be why?
Last edited by ladylouroll; July 2nd, 2009 at 09:54 AM.
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July 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| Quote:
Originally Posted by ladylouroll i have been using the amount it says on the back of the packet. i may have been using a bit too much as im a bit worried about under doing it. do you think that could be why? | I have no idea, but it's something that might be worth some of your time looking into.
The article I quoted mentions " Unreacted sodium thiosulfate that may be left over is pretty inert and harmless", but "pretty inert" is rather subjective, and I don't know if he's talking about a severe overdose or just a few extra crystals/drops/whatever.
If one gram of the stuff really can make a liter of solution that can be dosed at one drop per gallon for effective dechlorination, using a "packet" of crystals sounds at best like a marketing scam to get you to buy way more than you really need.
I could be completely wrong, though. | |
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July 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Addict
| it says the entire pack of crystals treats 300 letres on the pack. although as my bf just pointed out as everyone's tap water is different there must be a fall back in the ingredients otherwise different ph etc would need different amounts hes looking into it for me as hes a scientist im not! thanks for the idea there mathas. | |
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July 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Addict
| i dont believe that would have been enough to of killed my fish from that is there any other possibilities? | |
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July 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Master
| ive been reading a bunch of sites on this product and none are good....
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Sodium thiosulfate
Sodium thiosulfate
Crystal structure of sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate
IUPAC name
[show]
Sodium thiosulfate
Other names Sodium hyposulfite
Hyposulphite of soda
Identifiers
CAS number [7772-98-7],
10102-17-7 (pentahydrate)
PubChem 24477
RTECS number XN6476000
Properties
Molecular formula Na2S2O3
Molar mass 158.108 g/mol
Appearance white crystals
Odor odorless
Density 1.667 g/cm3
Melting point
48.3 °C
Boiling point
100 °C (decomp)
Solubility in water 20.9 g/100 ml (20 °C)
Hazards
MSDS External MSDS
EU Index Not listed
NFPA 704
0
1
0
Flash point Non-flammable
Except where noted otherwise, data are given for
materials in their standard state
(at 25 °C, 100 kPa)
Infobox references
Sodium thiosulfate (Na2S2O3), also spelled Sodium thiosulphate, is a colorless crystalline compound that is more familiar as the pentahydrate, Na2S2O3•5H2O, an efflorescent, monoclinic crystalline substance also called sodium hyposulfite or “hypo.”
The thiosulfate anion is tetrahedral in shape and is notionally derived by replacing one of the oxygen atoms by a sulfur atom in a sulfate anion. The S-S distance indicates a single bond, implying that the sulfur bears significant negative charge and the S-O interactions have more double bond character. The first protonation of thiosulfate occurs at sulfur.
Im finding this on every site and the fact that sulfur is in there period, might be something thats freaky to me but im no good in science and I hope others that are, maybe be able to explain better..but IMO, that is your issue with your fish babies | |
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July 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Addict
| thanks shawnie. i hope someone can put that into english for me as science. my partner says that the sodium in the crystals should be in a stable form if there going to sell it in a product like this but i guess if nothing else shows up its a strong possibility. He doesnt really get how any of the components in these crystals does what its ment to though. hmmm im really baffled he tried to explain to me but now im just more confused! | |
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July 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Master
| the sulfur alone is scarey for fish to me.....even if someone explains the scientific reasons for it, sulfur isnt good...can you find either amquel+, stress coat+, or ammo lock anywhere around you? sometimes the products that are sold are just rubbish and a waste of money...the product cycle for instance....once you stop using that, it kills the bacteria and fish start dieing...(from ammonia rising) again..im not a smart one in the scientific areas but with all your issues, that seems to be the common thing in all the tanks and I hope things get better for you and your fish babies soon! | |
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July 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Addict
| ive ordered some PRIME off ebay today so it should be here sat fingers crossed. so ill do another part water change on all my tanks with that. does that sound like a good idea? so PRIME alone will condition my water right? | |
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July 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| I haven't researched into it, but Prime has a distinct sulphur odour to it; I'd guess it contains sulphur as well. I wouldn't worry too much about the sulphur. It's sulphur COMPOUNDS created by rotting stuff that cause problems (mercaptans).
What struck me from mathas's quote was that the crystals you're using Quote: |
turning the chlorine to harmless chloride ions and adding some molecules of sodium and sulfur to the water.
| Sodium and chlorine are ionic species, and usually exist as free ions in a fluid, that means they are sometimes free chloride and sodium ions and sometimes come together as sodium chloride ( =salt). This reaction is constantly going back and forth and is controlled by temperature, pH and the availability of each ion. Why that may be an issue for you, is that if you're possibly OD'ing on the crystals, you could be causing a buildup of salt in your tank. Your salinity may be higher than you realize.
Just a theory, mind you - I could be way way off. I hope you figure it out. | |
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July 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Master
| Quote:
Originally Posted by prairielilly I haven't researched into it, but Prime has a distinct sulphur odour to it; I'd guess it contains sulphur as well. I wouldn't worry too much about the sulphur. It's sulphur COMPOUNDS created by rotting stuff that cause problems (mercaptans).
What struck me from mathas's quote was that the crystals you're using
Sodium and chlorine are ionic species, and usually exist as free ions in a fluid, that means they are sometimes free chloride and sodium ions and sometimes come together as sodium chloride (=salt). This reaction is constantly going back and forth and is controlled by temperature, pH and the availability of each ion. Why that may be an issue for you, is that if you're possibly OD'ing on the crystals, you could be causing a buildup of salt in your tank. Your salinity may be higher than you realize.
Just a theory, mind you - I could be way way off. I hope you figure it out. | ty prairie! is there a way to test the salinity of her tank? i know SW specialists do and maybe thats the issue..either way, I feel those crystals are whats causing something to go wrong and yes prime will be great for all your water changes and cycle issues... | |
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July 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| Is there any chance your water company treats the water with chloramine? Quote:
Chloramine poses two significant headaches for aquarists. First, chlorine-neutralizing chemicals such as sodium thiosulfate only neutralize the chlorine portion of the chloramine, neglecting an even bigger problem: deadly ammonia. The consequences can be devastating to fish. Although a tank's biological filter will (eventually) convert the ammonia to nitrate, the time it takes to do so may be longer than what your fish can tolerate.
| Quote:
Chloramine is a more persistant chemical, and some water authorities use it because of its greater stability. If you know or suspect that the water authority in your area uses chloramine, check that your dechlorinator product removes it. Chloramine is a compound of chlorine and ammonia, which is more stable than chlorine alone. Traditional dechlorinators, based on sodium thiosulphate, will neutralise the chlorine part, but this releases the ammonia. With a large percentage water change, this could be dangerous or stressful for the fish, as the bio-filtration will need time to convert the ammonia. The solution is a product which deals with the chlorine part and also converts the ammonia into a non-toxic form.
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Sodium thiosulfate *will* bind up the chlorine, but when they start giving you chloramine, expect a big ammonia spike if you do use just hypo o/e.
...
Summarizing, if you do big water changes with high pH and they are adding enough chloramine to kill cholera, etc., expect to have a *lot* of mysterious deaths. Amquel or carbon filtering can help you avoid the problem.
| So it's possible that if your water company uses chloramine instead of chlorine, that the sodium thiosulfate is actually leading to elevated ammonia levels.
But your ammonia test kit would catch that, right? Not necessarily. Quote:
Ammonia Spikes (Ammo Lock II)
Ammo Lock II is the only Ammonia binder which does NOT use a modified aldehyde or an unstable sulfide ion binder. It turns out that the sulfide ion binders are extremelty unstable. The sulfide ion binders originate in China, Japan and elsewhere and are formulated on a Sodium Formaldehyde Sulfoxylate ion called "Rongalite" which usually lasts about three days in solution.
Other compounds use massive amounts of sodium thiosulfate, which does nto bind ammonia at all. Sodium thiosulfate will defeat the ability of your ammonia test to detect Ammonia.
| Apparently sodium thiosulfate by itself, in water treated with chloramine, may not only cause ammonia spikes, but might even hide those spikes from you!
That's not to say it's a bad ingredient as part of a good water conditioner that also includes an ammonia binder (such as Prime or Amquel+), but it seems like using it by itself is opening a pandora's box if you're not 100% certain there are no chloramines in the water. | |
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July 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawnie ty prairie! is there a way to test the salinity of her tank? i know sw specialists do and maybe thats the issue..either way, I feel those crystals are whats causing something to go wrong and yes prime will be great for all your water changes and cycle issues... | The only way I know of to test the salinity of the water is with a specific gravity ( SG) meter. It measures the density of the test water relative to the density of fresh water as a ratio (fraction). Salty water will have a greater density than fresh water (density = 1.00 kg/m3) so the ratio usually comes out to some number slightly greater than 1, say like 1.005. SG meters in Canada cost around $12 at the LFS.
*It's been a whiles since I needed those numbers, I could be a bit off...
If it were my tank: when the Prime arrived, I'd do a 50% water change, then the next day another, and the next day...until I was completely certain that IF there was salt there, it was now gone (without shocking the fish with a 90-100% wc) | |
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July 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Addict
| mathas i just bought a water test kit that test chlorine. as far as i no our water is not treated with chloramine any idea how id find out for sure though? | |
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July 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| Your city's government's website should have information on your local water supply, including levels of various constituents and what's used to treat it. | |
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July 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Addict
| prairielilly or shawnie would me carrying on with water changes with prime as normal eventually get rid of these excess salts if they are the problem? im a bit concerned now as i have 2 corys and i remember them being intolerant to salt? | |
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July 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Master
| Quote:
Originally Posted by ladylouroll prairielilly or shawnie would me carrying on with water changes with prime as normal eventually get rid of these excess salts if they are the problem? im a bit concerned now as i have 2 corys and i remember them being intolerant to salt? | yes it will ladylouroll...like prairie said id do 50% changes for a few days with the prime once you get it....ill be sending allot of fishy prayers your way! | |
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July 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Addict
| ok shall do thanks guys still not sure about what my cities water though that web site seems to not have anything of much use to me on it :S
"The only treatment normally required is a carefully controlled dose of chlorine to eliminate any bacteria."
that was off that website. is that a good thing then?
Last edited by Lucy; July 3rd, 2009 at 08:06 AM.
Reason: merged back to back posts | |
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July 2nd, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| Quote:
Originally Posted by ladylouroll "The only treatment normally required is a carefully controlled dose of chlorine to eliminate any bacteria."
that was off that website. is that a good thing then? | I'd say that it would be a good thing...I did a quick browse through the link you provided, and didn't find anything about chloramine, just the stuff about the adding of chlorine as you mention above. It mentions what they measure but didn't give any specific numbers (my city does that too. Erg).
It did mention having an ongoing issue with nitrates due to increased agricultural use of fertilizers in the area. Have you tested your water straight from the tap for nitrates? | |
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July 3rd, 2009
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| | Fish Addict
| yeah its 5-10 straight out of the tap i tested it a few times. hence me having to do weekly water changes rather than the bi weekly most people seem to do. | |
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July 3rd, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| Quote:
Originally Posted by ladylouroll yeah its 5-10 straight out of the tap i tested it a few times. hence me having to do weekly water changes rather than the bi weekly most people seem to do. | Everyone's got a different wc schedule depending on what works for them  I do weekly or sometimes even twice weekly, even though my nitrates out of the tap are 0.
Do you have live plants?
When you test your nitrates (the result reported in your OP) is that before or after your wc? If your nitrates were getting over 20 at any point, that might be complicating things further for you. | |
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July 3rd, 2009
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| | Fish Addict
| yeah all of my tanks are planted. thats before my water crystals. i dont tend to test after my water changes as i presumed if i did a 50% water change on a tank that had 40 nitrates for instance that it would be 20 after. am i wrong in thinking this? | |
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July 3rd, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| Quote:
Originally Posted by ladylouroll yeah all of my tanks are planted. thats before my water crystals. i dont tend to test after my water changes as i presumed if i did a 50% water change on a tank that had 40 nitrates for instance that it would be 20 after. am i wrong in thinking this? | Nope, you're not wrong at all...that was just asked for clarity, hoping your nitrates weren't an issue for you. | |
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