kbekl

http://www.novalek.com/kordon/amquel+/index.htm

amquel+ supposed to remove ammonia, nitrite, nitrate gives examples on the back

1 dose is supposed to remove
1.2ppm ammonia
2ppm nitrite
13ppm nitrates

so if this is correct then should be a helpful product it is suitable for marine,ponds,coldwater and tropical

so i used it and will give my verdict on weather it works or not

has any one tried this stuff



but i did a test on this stuff yesterday and i forgot to post it here

right the bottle states it removes them so i am doing a test here i have a glass of water with arround 1ppm of ammonia in it i have tested at 7pm added the amquel+ and in 1 hr should read 0 PPM so we will se if it lives upto their claim

it also seems cheaper than prime and is roughly the same sort of doseage

5ml to 40l 10 gallons








thought i would test 15 mins in to see what was happening and here is the result





afer 1hr




http://aquabaz.tripod.com/amquel1.htm is how it works

aquarist48

Good morning. Amquel + actually turns ammonia into ammonium which is not toxic for your fish. Even thought you've added it you will still get readings of ammonia although it is actually ammonium. It lasts for a period of 24 hours. I've used it for years. They just upgraded to the + within the past few years. It was just Amquel and not Amquel +.

kbekl

the amquel+ actuall states it removes 1.2ppm hence the test lol

but yes it has been arround for years and the standard amquel is the same as prime

i am usure how this removes it and unsure where the ammonia goes

but it seems to be a product that would be benificial to new member being givn the wrong/bad advice from LFS

i have to admit i was very skeptical about this stuff but the test kit used shows no ammonia although i know their was 1ppm in the galss

it did alter the pH from 7.2- 7.4 (i might have overdosed it a little) in this test

also i noticed the nitrate levels was 0ppm when i tested after using it and my water has 5ppm in it

i dont know but it might be very usful for the newbies and incase of mini cycles for the experianced

i look at the way ammo lock and prime work but the level of ammonia is the same and when the 24hrs is up it causes it to be bad for the fish again (same as this product) but over 24hrs the fish produce ammonia so when youve added prime etc you still have ammonia where as this seems to rid it completly and still works after the ammonia has gone for 24hrs so safer for the fish imho

its a bit like these additive for the cycle things like safestart some have had sucess others havnt

Shawnie

I think you are reading it wrong....it detox's and still leaves it available for the cycle process....if it removed the ammonia, the tank wouldnt cycle period as there is no food source

kbekl

no not reading it wrong at all as i have tied ammo lock and prime they still leave the ammonia registered

it is like prime in an instance where their is more than 1.2ppm in the tank

so say you had 2ppm in the tank
you add prime their is still 2 ppm in the tank which is then coverted to ammonium, now then you have to dose untill it has gone via water changes and the filter, amquel+ takes the 2ppm and removes 1.2ppm, leaving you with 0.8ppm which is then turned to ammonium and removed via filter or water changes but the next time you dose unlike prime (if it is still under 1.2ppm) it removes the ammonia completly which i think is safer than having held for 24hrs. you cant remove the ammonia completly as the fish cause it when breathing through gills and pooing it out


the problem i have with these products like this is the ammonium which is what ammonia is turned to when under a ph of 7 which is harmless to fish but this also needs a different type of bacteria to remove the ammonium as if you watch a normall fishless cycle above 7ph try and drop the ph to 6.5 and see what happens to the cycle this normally stall's the cycle for a short period then starts again

so if your tank's ph is under 7 then their is no need to worry about ammonia as it is non toxic

Shawnie

you are reading just one word *REMOVE* you arent reading the entire sentence ..

"This standard dose will remove (detoxify) at least 1.2 mg/L (= approx.1.2 ppm) of all ammonia compounds, at least 2.0 mg/L (=2.0 ppm) of nitrites, and at least 13 ppm (=13 mg/L) of nitrates...."


ammonium, although certainly not as toxic as ammonia, is still dangerous and shouldnt be left in the tank....just because your ph is under 7 and you have a reading of ammonia, water changes are still a must....

I think amquel+, prime, and ammo lock pretty much do the same thing ...where everyone is all over the world, some of these are available in each different parts of the country

Angela_96

There is no chemical that will get rid of ammonia. The only true way to is waterchanges daily until the cycle is done.

Like they said above it will "detoxify" ammonia.

Lucy

Isn't there a thread around here that compares the ingredients of amquel and fish protector?

kbekl

so why did it remove the ammonia from the glass ?

what it says on the bottle

"This standard dose will remove at least 1.2 mg/L at least 2.0 mg/L (=2.0 ppm) of nitrites, and at least 13 ppm (=13 mg/L) of nitrates as well as detoxify chlorine and chloromines

so it states it removes the ammonia not detoxify it as well as nitrite and nitrate



so in my test the product is shown to do what it says

the test kit used is the API masters kit which shows up ammo locked and primed ammonia

and this product isnt showing any ammonia or amonium as the standard liquid test kits only show all ammonia and not just toxic ammonia / non toxic ammonium

kbekl

this is what it does to the ammonia which is released into the air not the water

kbekl

what i dont get about prime is it turns ammonia to ammonium which also happens below a ph of 7

but the bacteria used above a ph of 7 is a different strain to that of the ones below a ph of 7 even Dr. Tim Hovanec acknowledged this
as you can see ph has to be above 7 for this bacteria to work

so how would prime help ?

haedra

All that means is that particular test kit, and the reagents involved, are unable to detect the "detoxified" ammonia. I believe it also says on the bottle of Amquel+ (I use the same product) not to use test kits that use "Nessler" reagents, as they are incompatible with Amquel+. Such kits that use nessler reagents would be hypothetically be unable to tell the difference and if you used such a kit, likely your results would have remained unchanged before and after you added the Amquel+.

I understand the confusion. I contacted Kordon in February with the same questions, and was told that their product did not remove any of these chemicals (ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate), but merely changed the molecular structure slightly so that the "big 3" as I will call them, were still available to bacteria/plants.

kbekl

cheers for that info

so it dont remove the ammonia then it just hides it lol

the problem is none of my lfs stock prime and would have to travel 30 miles to collect it so wouldnt be a cost effective way to do things lol

so what would this do to the cycle ? the same as prime sort of stall it untill it is released ?

Shawnie

prime and amquel+ do the same thing ...you do not have to have both ...ty haedra for the technical part of explaining you are the bomb!

eaglescout316

If you want to go back to the bottle, i can read on the pic that it says it does not interfere with the biological filter or nitrifying bacteria.

lew2000

First off as it has been pointed out ammonium is still harmful to fish -

This link is referenced alot years ago (for saltwater - dfifferent bacteria same application) - it identifies % ammonia and ammonium at pH levels. It also identifies how a product like prime works (hydroxymethanesulfonate). Amquel+ uses a proprietary formula - but i read somewhere that it uses polymeric chains.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/index.php#2

Prime is a sulphur compound that binds NH3 and creates aminomethanesulfonate. The binding is reversible .... so the nitrogen compounds are still available for your nitrifying bacteria. It does not interfer with the nitrogen cycle. At least says Prime and others who have researched it.

Secondarily, the link below and others, the denitrification process continues at 5.5-6.0pH. There is some argument when you read up on this. Personally i know discus keepers who run their tanks at 5.7pH and still have denitrification taking place. 6.5-8.2pH is said to be the optimal pH.

Ammonia treated by Prime and Amquel

http://www.aquarium-pond-answers.com...ditioners.html

http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Bacteria

JUst for reference: Dr. Hovan, who created the product bio-spira now Tetra Safe Start, differs with a number of biologist:

"Though Dr. Tim Hovanec claims that it is Nitrosococcus sp. and not Nitrosomonas sp. that converts ammonia into nitrite and Nitrospira sp. and not Nitrobacter that converts nitrite into nitrate."

Doesn't seem to matter though, becuase tetra safe start TSS works - which is another link.

Lucy

Lost me on the scientific stuff. But thats ok, thanks for everyone's research.

One thing though, I thought ammoniun wasn't harmful to the fish?
Nitrogen Cycle

Looked for the other link I wanted to reference. When I find it I'll post it.

ynaggo

Prime And Amquel+ I think is the same thing, im pretty sure they convert ammonia into ammonium which intern gets eaten by your bacteria. I don't think any aquatic safe product in the world can 100% remove ammonia on the spot without any help of bacteria.

Craig-D

The theory that Amquel+ converts ammonia to ammonium is a common one, but it is incorrect. What it does is chemically break up the bonds of the elements that make up ammonia. It leaves the remaining parts for the biofilter to feed on, which doesn't know the difference. For reasons Kordon does not yet know, Amquel+ can throw off the readings of many test kits - they especially name the API test kit as being incompatable with Amquel+. If you go to Kordon's website, they have a very thorough explanation of all this.

I cycled my original tank for 2 months using Amquel+ to get my fish through it unscathed. Although my API test kit showed readings as high as 2.0 ppm of ammonia throughout that time, my fish were fine and never showed signs of stress. Trust me, the stuff works. That and Kordon's NovaQua+ is all that will ever go in my tanks now.

MizRamzi

I use Amquel+. The end

Lucy

That's interesting. I'll stick with Prime and Stress Coat cause I'm not giving up my API master kit.
It's also good to know when we try and guide members through the cycle.

MizRamzi

I don't believe this! After reading this post and getting very very confused but understanding a little I just figured out what the heck is going on with my planted tanks and the high ammonia levels I've been getting while testing. It's not ammonia I'm reading but AMMONIUM , not because of the Amquel+ I'm using but the Flourish Plant Food I'm using. It's only happening in those 2 tanks. I use Amquel+ in all my tanks.
So I can quit fretting now!!!

soldieroffortune1974

Ammonium ( NH4 )is the ionized form of ammonia ( NH3) It is not as toxic to fish as ammonia, In large quantities Ammonium can be just as harmful as a small amount of ammonia.

Ammonium, the most important nitrogenous fertilizer for water plants, is essential for the breakdown of plant protein. Some plants have nitrifying bacteria parasitised on their roots that break down ammonia into ammonium skipping the nitrite and nitrate phase of the nitrogen cycle.

This is also why these products change the PH of the water,making it slightly more acidic. The process can't occur in neutral or purely alkaline water.

Craig-D

Not so fast. Prime can throw off tests too. From the Seachem website Prime info page:

A salicylate based kit can be used, but with caution. Under the conditions of a salicylate kit the ammonia-Prime complex will be broken down eventually giving a false reading of ammonia (same as with other products like Prime™), so the key with a salicylate kit is to take the reading right away.

Lucy

Oh sure Craig, confuse me more. lol
I'm def. not a science person.
Actually I thought (don't know why) that the API master kit was a nessler reagent kit until I googled it. Can't find the directions that came with it.

I'm still gonna stick with what's worked for me.

Craig-D

Sorry! I just though Prime users should know that product can produce false readings on tests too. There's no reason you shouldn't stick with what has proven to work for you. The stuff you use are among the best. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Lucy

No reason to apologize. There are so many variables depending on whcih products your using with what it's good to point these things out.

aquarist48

I use Amquel + and Nova Aqua + as well. Have used them both for many years and recommend them highly.

kbekl

oh ok i thought the amquel+ would show on a salicylate fine and not the nessler like the bottle says

oh well

cheers for the info

also in this test the ph rose from 7.2 to 7.4

Craig-D

You will get accurate test results on some salicylate tests, but not on others. Kordon specifically names the API test kit as not being compatible (which is ironic because it's probably the most commonly used test). Kordon doesn't know why this is so yet. Amquel+ does not affect pH. You've got something else going on in your tank that's causing that.