Lollie

Yes, it's true… Ignorance isn't always bliss...
but its great this forum is here to help combat that problem!

Here's my story and my dilemma, its long but I'll try very hard to keep it as brief as possible…

Some time ago my daughter bought my grand daughter a very small tank (I think 1.5 gal) and two cute little goldfish and later a dojo loach was added to the tank. (Yes… I realize this is all wrong…now…) When she moved I fell heir to the three of them and I'm quite happy about that but this is where the ignorance starts or rather, it continues. Since the goldfish were getting fairly big I thought I'd buy them a new home, a larger 10 gal. tank (which I've since learned won't be nearly big enough, but I'll deal with that later when they outgrow this one). She had brought them home from the store and put them directly in the tank with nothing added besides tetra aqua safe and they've been fine, so I didn't even consider that I might have to do anything *special* with the new tank, the instructions merely said to set it up, add the enclosed aqua safe and let it run for 24hrs before adding fish. Boy, have I ever learned since then how wrong that was!
I put them in a bag and let it float for the recommended time and gradually added some water from the tank, then let them go free… by the next morning it was obvious they weren't happy, the goldfish were resting on the bottom of the tank not doing well at all and I thought it was too late for the dojo, so I quickly transferred them back to the little tank where they have been fine ever since and started looking online for help and thankfully I fell upon this forum, its been an awesome well of information but somewhat overwhelming at the same time.
I live way out in the country, even the nearest Walmart is an hour drive away, so it's difficult at best to get the things I need. The tank has been running empty for almost 3 weeks while I've been trying to get educated about what was wrong and then learn how to get the tank cycled properly. On my first trip to Walmart I discovered they didn't have any kits in stock to check the nitrate and nitrite levels, so I came home with ammonia and pH test kits. I read the suggestion of adding a bit of food each day so I've been doing that. Then I made another trip to buy Tetra Safe Start, which of course… they didn't have in stock so I bought Stress Zyme and then read that it's not efficient for long term or setting up stable bacteria in the tank so I didn't use it. I since found out that there's a pet store about an hour away too, so today I went for another drive, this place didn't have liquid tests for nitrate and nitrite in stock so I had to settle for strips for now. They also didn't have TSS so I bought what they did have, a product called "Cycle" made by Hagen. I don't recall seeing this product mentioned in anyone's posts so I'm wondering if this is any better than stress zyme? I also read that it may be difficult (or slow) to cycle a tank with low PH, my tank and tap water both tested at barely 6.0 so I bought PH-up in case I'm advised to use that and I also have tetra aqua safe on hand if needed at any point.
Currently the tank is testing - ammonia - 1.0, nitrate - 80 (or slightly higher) and nitrite - barely 0.5 … can someone please tell me where I am, what I need to do and where I need to be? I'm anxious to get these guys in a bigger, happier and healthier place... thanks soooo much in advance!

Je55*e

It's so wonderful of you to have taken these fish in, and more so that you care enough to research how to make them happy. That is rare!
When I cycled my tank, I used the ammonia method of add daily and wait. Here's a link explaining how to do it: 2 Ammonia methods of cycling your fishless tank

I wouldn't add the cycle or even the TSS. If you cycle your tank with the ammonia, you won't need those extra chemicals. I'd pick up (I'm so sorry to tell you to get more things, you've made so many trips already!) a product called Prime, which is a great water conditioner that keeps ammonia and nitrates down and removes chlorine in water. You won't need it until you change the water, of course (you add it to the new water when you do your 20-30% weekly water changes). The less chemicals in the water, the better! If you can return some of the other products in exchange for Prime, that might be a good idea.
Best of luck! Those goldfish are lucky to have you caring for them. =)

Lucy

Hi Lollie welcome to Fish Lore

Isn't it amazing what 3 little fish can teach us? lol
Congrats on doing your research and trying to get your fish into a bigger tank. Your fish will quickly out grow the 10g. The Dojo needs lots of room because he can grow close to 10" and the goldies because they produce so much waste. I think you'll need about 40g. But, I see you've researched their needs

I can't explain why they would have been happier in the 10g. Perhaps it was the stress of moving.

Unfortunatly, cycle contains the wrong kind of bacteria. You'll have to use it the life of your tank. It'll use the ammonia the bacteria needs to grow naturally.
It would be a good idea to return it, if you haven't opened it.
Funny, like you, many of us have that bottle of stress zyme lying around. lol

What test kit are you using? To me it looks mid-cycle since you have readings of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.
Usually most fish can adapt to your pH as long as they're acclimated slowly.
In the mean time, be sure to do frequent water changes in their smaller tank so the ammonia doesn't build up.

Good luck with your tank.

Edit: Just an addition to Je55*e's post. It's my understanding that Prime (along with dechlorinating) will detox ammonia, making it safer for your fish, not actually reducing it.
But, I agree, with using Prime especially in the little tank while doing water changes.

Lollie

Thanks so much for the quick and informative responses and especially for the encouragement, it's greatly appreciated!
After reading your replies I went searching for my sales slip, I haven't found it yet but if I do, I'll be returning the Cycle (and tetra aqua safe) asap… lol I don't recall seeing Prime at either Walmart or the pet store, so I'll have to do some calling around or perhaps I can find a place online to order it. My water comes directly from a dug well so Chlorine isn't an issue (that’s one thing I don't have to worry about at least). I guess my next purchase is ammonia!

I read the info on the link you provided Je55*e, it mentions low PH levels - "The optimal pH range for nitrification is about 7.0 to 8.0. As pH gets lower and closer to 6.0, the nitrification process severely slows. Below 6.0, the bacteria basically go dormant and stop reproducing." So should I use PH-up to raise the level in my tank?

Lucy, the ph and nitrate/nitrite kids are from API, the ammonia kit says aquarium pharmaceuticals. I'm doing small water changes daily in the little tank because as you suggested the ammonia is really high in it and doesn't seem to be going down so that’s another reason I'm anxious to get them out of there, they're doing ok as of now but as I've learned from reading this could change quickly. I've also added a tiny bit of stress zyme to it in hopes that may help since I have it and stuck with it.. lol… and the tank is only going to be used until I get the bigger one cycled properly.

And yikes! When I read the info about the dojo I was mainly concerned about its needs and didn’t notice that it would grow that big… eeek! lol

Lucy

API and aquarium pharmaceuticals are the same company. They're liquid right? Very accurate, good choice in tests.

Since the ph is consistent between your tank and well, I wouldn't mess with it, better for the fish to have a stable ph and easier for you not to try and change it.
Yes, the cycle will take longer, but the good news is ammonia at that ph is actually converted to ammonium, which isn't toxic to your fish.
The test kit will still read it as ammonia because it can't distinguish between the two.

I still wouldn't use the stress zyme.
You watch, you'll want that 10g cycled because once you get a larger tank for your current fish, you'll want to put something in the 10g

lol@ the dojo.....pretty cool fish.

aquarist48

Welcome to Fish Lore. Hang in there. With a little time and effort you'll have a thriving tank in no time. Great info above!

Lollie

Thanks for yet another warm welcome Aquarist
Good news - I found my sales receipt so the *junk* will be returned!
And yes Lucy, you are sooooo correct, once I realized that a gold fish tank is just that and that they'd eventually out grow the tank I'm cycling for them now I started right away anticipating eventually using it for a tropical tank with lots more "pretties" to look at... lol

Je55*e

And we hope to see pictures of them all! ^_^

agabr123

hi and welcome to fishlore! you've gotten great advice above, just hang in there!

joy1125

hi Lollie, and welcome !
good luck in cycling the new tank, you're on your way !

just a reminder about the 1.5g the fish are presently in.....

Please be sure to check the readings on that tank as well. Being you have 3 fish in there, the 2 goldfish being big waste producers, you may need to do frequent, if not daily, water changes. You may also want to pick up some added aeration next time you go to town, like an air pump w/ air stone. Something to keep the surface water moving.

btw, have you ever considered ordering the fish supplies online ? Makes life so much easier everythings in stock and a click away! I have two local pet chain stores right up the road, but they never seem to have what I need, so I end up ordering online most of the time anyway.

Lollie

Hi Joy... I just noticed your reply, ooopsie! Thanks for the welcome

Re: the small tank I have them in now... I don't even bother testing the water, I know its got to be bad so I've been doing around a 25% water change every day, it seems to make them happy... lol

There hasn't been a whole lot of change in the larger tank in almost a week, the nitrate is still 80ish, nitrite is barely showing (if any at all) and the ammonia may have dropped ever so slightly to closer to .50.

I've been looking for ammonia locally to no avail, but hubby brought home a bottle today that I think will work... the brand name is "Old Country", the label simply says "ammonia - all purpose cleaner", I can't find a list of ingredients, all It has on it is "Contains no Phosphates or fragrances". I did the shake test I had read someone suggested somewhere... hehe... no bubbles appear when I shake the bottle, so I'm thinking this should be the right stuff?
And if it is, then I guess should start adding it and ... wait...and wait some more ...while following the directions in the link jesse posted earlier...

I have thought about ordering supplies online, but haven't taken time to look into it as of yet, I will need a good/liquid test kit for nitrite and nitrate very soon! So far all I've been able to find are the test strips and there's not many in the container. Any suggestions of where to go shopping online would be appreciated
(I thought I'd start out by digging on Ebay)

Thanks!
(Yet again)

Je55*e

I like bigalsonline.com. They are a bit cheaper than the other online aquarium supply sites, and they delivery things very quickly. Best of luck, and don't hesitate to ask if you have any more questions! =)

joy1125

Lollie, the labeling of that bottle .... all purpose cleaner ...has me concerned. I don't think it's the right stuff. It should say 100 percent pure ammonia and the ingredients should say no surfectants. I have to tell you, that type of ammonia is very hard to come by, and I'm in a metro area with tons of stores. The only store around here who has it is Ace Hardware-- that's it.

Your tank sounds like it's cycling wonderfully, actually. Nitrites are down, ammonias dropped, you have massive nitrAte...all good things. I think you're very close to being done, by the sounds of things.

Instead of risking it with that iffy ammonia, you can toss a cocktail shrimp in there instead. It'll serve the same purpose, all you need is a continued source for the bacteria to feed on.

Lollie

Hey jesse... I had a look at bigalsonline.com, I don't see anything there that says they ship to Canada (internationally)... perhaps I'll send them an email to check on that for sure tho, I'm sure I'll find something somewhere!

No worries about the ammonia I have here joy, I called directly to the company to ask them about it, the lady that answered had no idea so she took my name and number to have someone else call me back that knows that info, sooo.. its under my sink and staying there... lol
You mentioned using a cocktail shrimp in the tank, I'm thinking a piece of lobster meat would do the same trick?
When I was perusing earlier I read something someone said about cycling going better in a warmer tank, so I put my heater in for now too... I'll take it out when I do water changes before I move the fish over later on.
I'm happy to hear you say it sounds like the tank is cycling well... that makes me feel lots better Sooo.... if I'm not using ammonia to cycle the tank, how will I know when its done exactly?

joy1125

yep, a lobster piece will do also! It'll decay and that'll provide the ammonia that's needed to feed the bacteria .

so keep checking the readings, as you've been doing.

Drsfostersmith.com is another great online resource, as well as the big chains like Petsmart.com and petco.com. Those may not be great places to buy fish, but supplies are good, especially the API liquid test kits, they always have them.

also, if you look up above this page under the FishLore headers, you'll see links to online shopping.

kimb

Lolly, try bigsal.ca...I think they actually began in Canada. I know there are actual Big Al stores in the Barrie, Ontario area. Good Luck

Lollie

Thanks joy and kim, I'll dig around and I'm sure I'll find a place to get what I need... its good that I love wasting time on the internet I guess.. hehe...
More progress today... nitrate seems to be holding steady at 80 (ish), nitrite is almost non existent and ammonia is almost at zero! Soooo close!
I swear I can see these fish growing before my eyes, I'm thinking I'll need to figure out what to do with them sooner than I had expected I know a couple of people that have outdoor fish ponds... one in particular has been established for several years, maybe that would be a good option for the goldies (I thought having fish was supposed to help relieve stress? lol)

Lollie

A little update about the ammonia product, my phone call was returned from the company today, the gentleman said its 6% ammonia and the rest is just water and reassured me its safe for cycling fish tanks (he seemed aware and well informed about the process and said he wouldn't want me to do anything to hurt my fishies... lol)
Sooo... if thats the case, since my ammonia is almost zero, nitrate 80ish and nitrite is not showing any at all, it should be safe now to add some ammonia and see how long it takes to go back down to zero... correct?

Lucy

Hi Lollie, there aren't any fish in this tank, right?

If not, you're correct. Bring the ammonia to 4-5ppm, if it's back to 0 in 12 hours or so, your tank is cycled. (Do a good water change to get the nitrates down before adding fish)

If you don't add your fish right away, make sure the bacteria always has a sourse of ammonia to feed off of, or it will die off.

Lollie

Hi again Lucy, yes... you are correct, there aren't any fish in the tank.
I added the ammonia last evening and it hasn't come down far enough/fast enough, so I shall continue to wait

Lucy

Have you tested for nitrites?
When your see ammonia starts to drop, test for nitrite. Once you have nitrites add enough ammonia to read 3-4ppm.
Test everyday for nitrites.
When your nitrites start to drop start testing for nitrates.

I don't know if you've done this, but if you increase your temp to the high 80's and increase aeration, it'll help the bacteria grow.

Just keep doing that until the ammonia and nitrite drop to 0 in about 12 hrs.

Lollie

hello again
Yes, I've tested for nitrites, as of this morning its showing nitrites-close to 0.3, nitrates 10-20 and ammonia close to 2.0.
I added ammonia on Friday to bring it up to the 3-4ppm range, it hadn't dropped much on Saturday and I had to go away for the night so I left things alone until I got back yesterday to test again and the levels haven't changed much at all since Saturday. So at this point since I do have nitrites, I guess I should add ammonia again today and see what it does in 12 hrs?
I also purchased an air stone for it on the weekend and bumped up the temp in the tank as suggested

kimb

Hi Lolly, Having just gone through...all I can say is patience is a virtue! I would say if you still have ammonia at 3-4. leave it alone for now. The build up of enough nitrites seems to be the longest part of the cycle. As long as there is some in there to keep feeding the bacteria. If it drops to 0, bump it up to 3-4 and keep checking nitrites. You should see a spike in those and then gradually they will fall and your nitrates go up. Once you have 0ammonia, 0nitrites and nitrates, you can do a water change and be good to go. Other members will be along shortly I'm sure with maybe better advice.
P.S...I agree Nova Scotia is beautiful! I am in NB but all family resides in NS!

Lollie

Thanks for the reply Kim I'm glad to hear that it appears that I'm still on the right track... so I'll keep on keepin' on and try to remain patient ... lol

p.s. - I love the Maritimes and Nova Scotia, I can't imagine living anywhere else, gotta love the smell of the ocean... although its frustrating when stores that carry things like aquarium supplies are so far away!

kimb

Me too! We are on the shore of Miramichi River and all family is in Pictou County (New Glasgow and Westville). I think I mentioned Big Al's online does have a .ca connection, at least you can pay in Canadian funds. We lucked out with many items available at Pets Plus in Moncton. There is also a good place called getfish.ca. You can order from them online. Good luck with everything, keep us posted.

Lollie

Thanks yet again... I'll keep those links handy for when I need things again! There's a huge Pets Unlimited store in Bayers Lake that we visited this weekend, I picked up a few things but its almost 3 hours from me (I'm on the South Shore but have an Aunt in NG) I think hubby and I spent a couple of hours browsing around the various fish tanks... I suspect he could easily be converted to a "fish person", he was eyeballing various tanks and pointing out the ones that would fit in the divider between the kitchen and living room here... lol

I've also been kicking myself that I can't remember the name of one fish we saw and wanted to find out more about, they looked similar in appearance to the pictures I've seen of the blood red parrot chichlids, but... each one was a solid soft pastel color...pink, blue, yellow and purple, I know its possible that mother nature would create such a thing, but I was mainly curious to find out if they were "painted fish" :/ They were very shy and kept peeking out around the rocks, I found their behavior cute and appealing, but it would be sad to find out those aren't their natural colors

kimb

Hi Lolly, they probably were in fact Parrots. Those colours come from a dying process. Sadly what the fish can go through is horrendous. I have a BP (check out her photo in my gallery), she was rescued from poor conditions in a pet store, but shee is her natural colour, not dyed. They do have a wonderful personality. My wee girl will eat from your hand, "kiss the tank" and allow herself to be stroked. She was shy at first but now seems to love people interaction. She is just patiently waiting for her new 55g home to come in!

Lollie

Awww... Hermione sounds sweet and similar to a dog, without the shedding! hehe
I'm pretty sure the ones we saw were parrots too, they had that same wonderful expression on their faces as Hermione. I've read several articles about the coloring/dying processes they put fish through, you're correct.. it IS horrendous

Lollie

Here I am again... more questions
After my last post I added a tiny bit of ammonia to bring it back up, it's remained high ever since at 8.0 or ever so slightly lower. Nitrates have been consistently showing in the 50 range and nitrites in the 0.3 range. The tank temp is around 78 and I added an airstone on Sunday to help with aeration. Is there anything at all I can do to help it along at this point? I think I read somewhere earlier that it would be ok and might help to do a partial water change?
It's hard to have patience with such a pretty larger tank empty with three fishies stuck in their little one. The dojo is pacing tonight, so I'm not sure if it's a weather change or if he's getting impatient too!

*edit* It wasn't after my last post that I added the ammonia, it was on Friday, the 29th, so 5 days ago... I guess thats not a really long time, but it sure seems like it ... hehe

kimb

Wait for someone more knowledgable to come along but in my opinion a small water change won't hurt. When the ammonia gets that high, the bacteria sometimes just cannot keep up. Most of us who knew no better and cycled with fish, did water changes everyday and still cycled the tank. My second cycle using ammonia I did the add daily, the ammonia went so high, I had to change out the water. Third tank I did add and wait. It stalled and a water change seemed to bump it along, back on track. Only my two cents, again others much more knowledgable may have different advice, but with ammonia at 8 after 5 days, you may have to do a change to bring it into a better range. If you do, just make sure to add your conditioner. Good luck