JennDFK

Ok... I'm going to get my 55 gallon put together today... and I'm going to do my first fishless cycle...and I'm a bit nervous. I've decided to use this method.

Option 4:
Use gravel and/or filter media from an established and cycled tank
This is the best and fastest way to go. This will seed the tank with all of the necessary bacteria for the nitrogen cycle. "Feed" the tank daily with flake food until you are getting nitrate readings. Depending on how fast you were able to get the gravel and filter media into your tank, you may be getting nitrate readings in only a day or two.

1. I have had a filter sponge floating in my tank for about 3 weeks now. The plan is to use that one in my current tank and take the old one out and put it in the new tank. I have a couple of questions.... The filter on my cycled 30 gallon is an AquaClear and my new tank has a Penguin BioWheel 350... Where do I put the used media? Do I just float it in the new tank or sink it with a scoop of gravel from the established tank? Or do I need to find a way of putting it inside the filter?

2. How much gravel do I need to use?

3. How much food do I need to feed the cycle with? Is it the same as feeding fish or do I need to do more?

4. Our water already has a nitrate reading of 5... so if I tested the tap water it would look a little like a cycled tank 0 0 5... So how do I tell if my tank is cycled?

5. Would adding water from the old tank (during a partial water change) be a good idea to help jump start the cycle?

Today we are putting in the gravel, water, planting a couple of plants, and some of the decor. Can I just start the cycle now? or should I wait a couple of days?

Thanks in advance for all the wonderful advice I'm sure I'll get,
Jenn

Lucy

Hi Jenn Congrats on the fish less cycle.

1) I'm not familiar with different filters, but can you tuck the sponge in the filter? That would be the best place for it. Otherwise, you can weigh it down with the gravel or tuck it behind your intake.

2) As much as you can spare. The more gravel, the more bacteria. You can put it in some never seen soap pantyhose and hang it in the tank if you don't want it mixed with your new gravel.

3) Probably just a pinch of food a day. Believe me, from personal experience, don't add too much. (ew, what a mess lol)

4) Your nitrates will be higher than 5

5) I wouldn't. There really isn't enough bacteria in the water to benefit. The bacteria isn't free floating, instead grows on surfaces. Also since there's nitrates in the water you remove, you may not get a good indication of where your cycle is.

You can start right away. Depending on how much bacteria is transferred, you may be surprised at how quickly your tank will cycle.

Good luck!

aquarist48

Hello Jen. If you can fit the already seeded filter media into your new filter that will be the best bet. I'd use a cup or two or couple of hand fulls of gravel from the seeded tank to the new one. Too, if you have any extra ornaments, plastic plants in the seeded tank you could also use some of those. However, don't over load your new tank and cause your cycled tank to go into a mini cycle. In other words don't take too much out of your cycled tank to cause problems. When it comes to feeding the tank with flake food, I would suggest a large jumbo shrimp if possible, put it in a fish net bag (one used for filter media will work) and drop it in the tank. The bag will keep it from making such a mess in your tank when it breaks down. You won't have nearly the mess that you may have with flake food falling into the bottom substrate. Good luck and keep us posted. I seeded my 26g tank and it only took 15 days. (a lot better than 4 to 6 weeks).

Dozey

Others will have a different view on this issue. However IMO if you are moving this amount of established media from a cycled aquarium to your new aquarium you could start with a few fish and be at ease that the amount of BB transplanted will be plenty to maintain a few fish (3-4 juveniles).

Stuff your seeded filter media in your new filter anywhere you can. Seeding a tank in the very manner that you have described is the very method many of us use for our quarantine/hospital tanks. Many of us simply run an extra filter on our display tanks and transfer the filter to a QT when needed for an “instantly” cycled tank. Since you will be moving media, gravel and décor you will certainly be transferring enough BB to support a few fish.

Waiting for food to break down and decay (producing ammonia) may very well starve your BB in the mean time.

Again IMO transfer the media and add a few juvenile fish.

Good Luck!

Lucy

Good point.

I agree this is quite possible. Sometimes though seeding a larger from a smaller tank, you have to be careful.

Another good point.

I have to say, I've done both. Added fish right away to one tank and fed with ammonia on another.

Which ever you do, keep a close eye on the parameters and so water changes as necessary.
Sometimes when seeding a tank, you go right into a small nitrite phase.

aquarist48

Dozey stated a good point about waiting on the food to break down and the biological bacteria starving... Too, if you do decide to add fish right away just keep an eye on your perimeters and be prepared (just in case) for water changes should you get a mini cycle. Let us know how things are going.

JennDFK

Well... We already made a mistake... probably killed off some of the bacteria. My husband without thinking tossed the unsightly filter media that I have been patiently soaking for weeks into the new tank before we declorinated. I was planning on using the one from my established tank in the new one... but I don't want to risk the mini cycle... so the one that has been soaking will have to do.

I put a nicely weathered rock from the old tank in the new tank and the filter media in the filter... and fed the tank a little fish food. Tomorrow I'm going to the store for the shrimp and the panty hose for the gravel.

I collected some water for a base line test... and I will keep y'all posted on what happens.

I'm not in a hurry so we will see what happens.

Jenn

JennDFK

So you think that if I put the gravel in today then I could put a few fish in?

I guess I could always put them in my established tank if the readings got too out of wack...

Or do you think I should wait based on the mistakes I've already made?

BTW I'm planning on keeping 3-4 each of two varieties of rainbows, a red tail shark, and possibly a small school of barbs or tetras (if they would get along with the RTS)... What fish should I add first?

Dozey

I agree that being careful is always best. Although the size of tank isn't all that important as it is not the volume of water that really decides the bio filtration required.

The amount of bacteria available on media will be subject to the bio load within an aquarium and not the volume of water.

My opinion being. Seeding a 35 gallon aquarium with media from a 100 gallon tank would be almost useless if the 100g tank only had on small fish in it. There would be almost no BB in the media. But stepping up from a well stocked/established 35 gallon system to a larger aquarium will transfer enough BB to maintain a small stock in the larger tank.

JennDFK

Do I still do water changes if I do it completly fishless? Or do I wait until it is cycled before changing water?

Lucy

Ooops! If you added dechlorinator right after, it shouldn't have much effect on the bacteria.

Dozey knows about shopping for pantyhose for gravel, maybe he knows of a certain brand or shade.
Joking, sorry Dozey, couldn't resist.

Yep, you can do that. Keeping a close eye on parameters.

Someone else can better answer that for you.

If there's no fish, you don't have to change the water. Right before adding them, I'd do a good one, though.

Dozey

No problem. For my pantyhose choice I went with “Silkies” for queen size women with reinforced toes. These are 100% nylon and never bleached or chemically washed. The reinforced toes adds a level of security when lifting the heavy gravel from the aquarium. Also I never had embarrassing runs.

JennDFK

one more thing... they have one of the tetra start products at Petsmart... it has declorinator... some type of stress slime coat additive... and it says it has something for bacteria... It is not refridgerated so I don't think it is a biological culture... but would this be helpful if I put fish in?

Lucy

Stress Coat (API) or Prime are both good. Stress Coat+ and Prime both detox ammonia if for some reason you ever have a mini cycle.

I think Tetra's conditioner is Right Start, it works but won't detox should you ever need it.
SafeStart is the biological additive that some on the forum have used. I've never seen it in a petsmart and it doesn't dechlorinate.
Petsmart carries them, I think.

JennDFK

http://www.tetra-fish.com/sites/tetr...id=1276&cid=73

I believe this is the product. I've already declorinated... so I wouldn't need that aspect of it... I was just wondering which product would be the best to add...if any...

Thanks sooooo much BTW... You guys help so much.

Lucy

You're very welcome, the forum is full of members helping other members.

I've never tried the product, but most times anything with bacterial additives compete with the beneficial bacteria your tank needs to stay cycled.
There are a lot of products like that on the market.

Personally, I'd stick with a good dechlorinator like one of the ones mentioned above.

JennDFK

Arhgggg... I'm so confused... So just a few more questions... How is it a fishless cycle if you need fish to keep the bacteria alive? Isn't there going to be ammonia... or does it get eaten by the bacteria and processed through the nitrogen cycle and becomes nitrates more quickly?
And how long can benificial bacteria last without food? Since I have already put the media in the filter how soon do I need to get the fish in there?

Lucy

I know it's all confusing. One day soon, it will all come together.

Ammonia doesn't have to come from fish waste. It can come from using pure ammonia, fish food (which breaks down into ammonia) or a peice of raw shrimp (which also breaks down into ammonia)

In a cycled tank with fish, the bacteria processes the waste (ammonia) created by the fish into nitrites another bacteria converts nitrites to the less harmful nitrate.

There's an illustration on this page that I found helpful:
Nitrogen Cycle

Not sure how long it can live, I would add a fish or two today to be on the safe side.
If you can't get to the store today, add a pinch of fish food.

JennDFK

Well I think that I will go to the store in a little while and get the fish. I'm thinking about going ahead with a small RTS and maybe an algea eater (rubber lipped pleco or some otos?) to feed the bacteria. I believe the rainbow fish are bigger and a bit on the expensive side... Or should I go with a more hardy fish like a platy of a danio? My neighbor offered one of his small pond goldfish... but I have a feeling that might be a bad idea since I don't know how healthy they are....

Lucy

I'd pass on the gold fish and wait on the otos, they do better in an established tank with some algea to feed off.

Usually 1 goldfish needs 20g's alone since they produce so much waste and don't need a heater like your tropicals.

I don't think the RTS is a bad idea.
Danios or platys, I think would be a good choice to start with also.
Be sure to add only a couple at a time so the bacteria has a chance to catch up to the bioload.

JennDFK

Thanks Lucy...I think I will just do one RTS to start with then... I don't really want anymore fish in my 30 gallon... and I don't want put anything in the 55 that I don't really want just for the cycle. I will keep you guys posted... and post some pictures as soon as it is interesting enough.

Lucy

Great! We'll look forward to the pics

JennDFK

Well I added the fish yesterday as suggested...He/she looks good. Nice color and enjoying having the big tank to himself. The water looks a tad bit cloudy. Today my numbers are:

Ammonia 0
Nitrites .25
Nitrates 5 (looks a tad bit higher-it has more orange)
pH 8.4

Should I do a partial water change? If so how much? I also have prime which says it works for nitrites...
Thanks,
Jenn

Lucy

Glad your rts is enjoying himself

I'd go ahead and do 40-50% with Prime, looks like not enough bacteria that process the nitrites.
It won't last long.

JennDFK

Thanks for the quick answer...How much prime do I use? It says to use up to 5 times the dose for nitrites... Do I need that much and do I dose for the whole tank or just the number of gallons I'm adding?

I thought the numbers looked good for a two day old tank. I'm feeling pretty happy about it. Even doing a big water change doesn't sound too bad

Thanks again,
Jenn

Lucy

Yeah, the numbers look great.

I usually dose for the amount of water I'm adding. By doing a 50% change, you're already cutting the nitrite in 1/2.

JennDFK

Well I did about a 40% yesterday... and I tested the nitrites a few hours later and they were back to 0...

Today I'm at

Ammonia 0
Nitrites 0
Nitrates are more than 5 today...but not yet 10.
pH 8.2

Dozey

No worries about nitrates only being 5ppm. Any amount of nitrates between zero and 20ppm is ideal. My (under stocked) aquariums have never seen nitrates about 5ppm. Your numbers are spot on and it certainly appears that you have successfully “instantly” cycled your aquarium.

Now comes the tricky part… stocking your tank. It’s been my experience that just because fish species are suppose to live in harmony they all have their own personalities and have NOT read the same fact sheets that I have. Stupid fish!

JennDFK

Well our tap water has about 5ppm... so I'm waiting to see a little more stability before I believe that it is instantly cycled. If things look this good 2 weeks from now I think I'll add a few more fish. Until then I think I will concentrate on more plants and some cool decorations to make it nice for my little fishiitos.

Thanks for all the advice everyone. I will post some pictures soon if I can.

Lucy

Can't wait to see the pics.

Like Dozey said, I wouldn't worry about the nitrates being so low so quickly after a water change. It's usually best to wait 12-24hrs to test again.