plaperriere

Hello All. Been a while since i last posted. I was the stressed out but determined fish owner who stupidly started the tank with fish BEFORE the cycle had taken its course. In February...the tank finally cycled....and life was really good!

But, the last few days, I noticed a change in my fish's routines. They did not appear to want to eat, and they were not as lively. We had a very large Algae bloom the last few weeks, but I can attribute this to my wife leaving the light on all day long every day. So we got some Tetra Algae control. Worked like a charm. Here are the specifics:

3 Cory's (now 2)
2 Platy's (1 live bearer)
2 Mollies (1 doing the swim of death right now)

Tank is a 20 gallon tank
My tank changes (once the tank finally cylced) was about a 35% water change every 4 days or so.

Yesterday, during a water change, I uncovered the dead cory. It looked like it had been dead for a while, but my wife swears she saw it 2 days ago alive. The tank had between 5ppm and 10ppm of ammonia, so I did about a 35% water change and used some Prime. I thought that would be good and I would monitor and do water changes every few days if ammonia stayed present. But, this morning...we found the Mollie doing the swim of death. I had a 10 gallon (already Tetra safe started) with the fry from the live bearer in it. So, I moved all the fish to that tank. When I tested the tank, I got these results:

pH = 6.0
Ammonia = 0ppm
Nitrites = 0ppm
Nitrates = 10ppm

I am extremly baffled now. The readings above are perfect readings, aren't they? Why are the fish so stressed? Did one get sick and now they are all suffering? What about my 20 gallon tank...arent the readings perfect...should I put them back in that tank, or empty it? Should I remove the platy that is still alive, but hurting badly? I dont know what to do at this point...any help would be great. Thanks.

Nate McFin

I only see one thing odd in your results. In your aquarium info it says you have a PH of 7.4 and in your current batch of results you have 6.0
If for some reason you had a Ph crash that may be the culprit. Has the Ph remained steady at 7.4 then slowly dropped or was this maybe something in the water that caused it to?
Any plants? Medicines used? New water conditioners?

EDIT: With API Ph test it only goes as low as 6.0 it may be lower than 6.0 if it bottoms out.

plaperriere

Nate - here is another question before I can answer yours. What PH tester should I be using? There is a normal PH and there is the High PH. When should I be using the regular versus High PH testing bottle? Reason I ask...is...I was using the high one and that is where the 7.4 came from. The 6.0 is what I have consistently got since I was told I should be using the "regular" PH bottle. Either way...the PH has been consistently low.

Nate McFin

If you use the regular Ph test and it tops out at 7.6 you would need to use the high. In your case it looks like the regular is the one to use.
Low Ph is ok as long as it is stable. I wouldn't be concerned with a 6.0 even as long as it isn't going from 7.0 after a water change to 6.0 over the course of a few days.

Nate McFin

Back to the fish though. I just pointed out the Ph as a possiblity.
How is the fish breathing? Is there any signs of red gills or damage?

plaperriere

Tough to say. The fish are red, so I am not sure what "red gills" are. The fish seem to be a little better since moving them into the other tank. But, I do nt see any noticeable damage to the gills or their bodies. The deacying cory would create additional "ammonia" correct? But, if the tank is now back to normal...why would they all seem stressed out?

Shawnie

im so sorry you lost your cory I hope they get better soon!! the daily water changes with prime will get you thru a mini cycle, which doesnt usually last long once you notice it and do the water changes...and yes the decaying cory probably was the cause of ammonia spiking...ammonia poisoning can have lasting effects and sometimes take days to a week or two, to kill or stress a fish...goodluck with them all!

soldieroffortune1974

To alleviate any concerns about PH,check the level out of the tap,then check the level out of the aquarium and compare the differences (if any) next do a 50% water change checking the PH at 3 or 4 hour intervals to see if/where the discrepencies/drop takes place. If you notice any discrepencies,test again for a 'contol reading' noting temp,GH and KH (if possible). Once that's done,we can look over the results to see what can possibly be causing the PH to drop so low.If the tap is constantly 7.4 but the aquarium is 6.0 or lower,there's something causing a significant drop

Since the fish are distressed and you can't tell why,there's a good risk of suspecting ammonia poisoning from the increased ammonia from the dead fish,so good clean,fresh, de-chlorinated water is the best thing for them with a good dose of stress coat. PH drops if they're fast enough can cause the same symptoms ( or close enough). During the whole process,continue checking the PH and other parameters at 3 to 4 hour intervals so you have a better chance of noticing the sudden change (if any) when it occurs.

plaperriere

OK - here is the scoop. I did the testing again last night. The PH level was again at 6.0, and the rest of the levels were perfect again. I had 0ppm on both the ammonia and nitrites...and then about 10ppm on the Nitrates. I mis-read the post earlier, and never checked the PH on the tap water. I will check the tap water tonight to see if I get a 6.0 reading on the PH...but, as I have said...the tank has always been at 6.0 from the get go. I have never had a 7. The only way I was able to get a 7.4 or so on the PH reading was when I used the "High PH" bottle from the test kit.

The mollie passed yesterday. I did a 70% water change on my 20 gallon tank (where all the fish came from, and the cory had died)...and put fresh water with Prime into it. I added some Aquarium Salt as it says that it is good for disease recovery and good health of the tank. The live bearer is still hurting...occasionally nose down...but, still is swimming and is fighting whatever is still bothering her. The other 4 fish (2 cories, 1 mollie, and 1 platy) seem to be recovering, but are very "spooked". I used to be able to have my hands in the tank when doing a cleaning of feeding...and they would congregate at the surface of the water...now, they continue to swim widely away as if I am going to hurt them. I feel horrible. It took months LITERALLY to get the cycle done...and the tank has looked so awesome (crystal clear, fish swimming all the time, and the live bearer delivering babies - her 3rd round now which are pretty much all dead now). Tough to keep explaining to my 2 and 4yr olds that the fish keep dying. Very frustrating.

If they were hypothetically posioned with ammonia, how long will it take for them to get back to normal? Should I continue to do 50% water changes, even though the readings I am getting are where they are supposed to (other than the PH level at 6.0)?

I hope you guys can bare with me here and continue to try and help me solve this problem.

P.S. One other thing...The Mollie and the Platy seem to eat a little, but the pregnant Platy does not seem to want to eat. Again, they used to swarm to the top of the tank and eat...now, they sort of wait for the flakes to come to them.

--UPDATE-- Wife just called me and told me that one of the other fish was swimming upside down...and then goes back to swimming normal again. So, the live bearer is still having issues...and now one of the other fish is not swimming normal.

ladylouroll

if my memory serves me right i believe that corys are very intolerant to salt so adding the salt may have been a bad move for him. so are they back in the 20g tank now? if the reading are fine i see no reason why you should have to continue the daily water changes just monitor them closely?!

plaperriere

Update on PH

Ok...I tested my tap water PH. I am so mad at myself right now. I never tested the PH from the tap water before. As I said in my earlier posts...my PH level (from the tank) has never got above 6.0. But, I took the reading from my tap and I am getting between a 6.8 and 7.0 (leaning more towards a 7.0). So...now the question is...why is the water crashing to 6.0? I am using Prime with my water changes...could this be part of the problem if I am putting too much of that in the water? If not, what else could be causing it?

I lost another mollie...and irnoically, the (no longer pregnant ) platy is still alive. The two platy's are alive...as are the two cory's...but, since i thought the pregnant platy would die before the other mollie...I fear it is only a matter of time before the others die. So, any advice at this point will be helpful! Thanks.

UPDATE - 6:09pm

Tested the water PH level right now...and it is a 6.0 (but could be worse) because the test kit only goes to 6.0. If the fish have been living in this all along, though...is it necessarily a bad thing?

Lucy

I'm really sorry about the loss of your fish. That's really frustrating when you got them through the cycle safely.
A couple of things stick out, the Ph, which you already know. You mention ceramic fixtures, is it possible something in them is effecting your ph? What test kit are you using?
The other thing is the algae remover, I've read that some people have had fish losses after using one. I'm sorry I don't recall the name of it.
In another post you mention ammonia of 5ppm-10ppm, thats extremely toxic and it's very possible the fish succumbed to the effects of such a high number.
I agree with ladylouroll, cats don't tolerate salt very well.

I'm sorry, that might not be much help, but they're all areas that should be looked at.

plaperriere

Lucy - thanks for responding. Here are my questions:

1) Yes. I have 2 ceramic figures. So, you are thinking that I should possibly remove them from the tank interior?

2) The fish gills are in fact red (I notice it more today than I did before). What could have caused that, ammonia?

3) What can I do about the PH? It is a 6 in the tank, but a 7.0 from the tap. What do I need to do to correct this?

4) Is there any saving these fish? The female live bearer (I thought was dead)...she swam real quick when I put some Stress Coat in the tank...and then she bellied up. Here gills weren't moving...but, then they started up again and now she is back upright...but struggling.

5) I am using the API Fresh Water Test Master Test Kit. But, I am not sure how old it is now. I have had it since I bought the tank about 6 to 7 months ago, and I am starting to believe it might be expired. Where can I find the exp date?

6) I used the Tetra Algae Control.

7) When I did the tank inspection, it was about 5ppm of Ammonia. But, I quickly eradicated that within 1 water change.

All in all...I have no idea how long the cory was dead for. It could have been a day...or 3+ days. The white cories are hard to see when you have white rocks in the tank. I truly think that is what started the whole problem. Anyway, if there is anything you can tell me from above...that would be great.

grump

Hi plaperriere and sorry for the loss of your fish.... Now I might be misinformed but ammonia dos'nt have a toxic afect on fish with a low PH of 6 ... Because it is something else... Am I right or was this a misinformation givin' to me...Hope this helps Rob


If I am wrong someone will correct me fast...LOL

Lucy

1) If they were specifically made for aquariums, it's possible that's effecting your ph. You can test them in a bucket of water.

2) Red gill is almost def. a symptom of ammonia poisoning, but your ammonia is 0 now? It's possible since it got that high, some damage was done.

3) Not sure, something is causing it. The rick is to figure out what.

4) I would normally recommend water changes but with such drastic ph differences, it could do them more harm.

5) I'm not sure there is one. I think the date on the box is the manufactured date, but after 6-7 months, I think it would be fine.

6) I don't know if that effects the ph.

7) On April 12th your ammonia was 0, but now it's up to 5 before the water change? If you did a 50% change that would only bring the ammonia down to 2.5ppms, still toxic.

I agree with what Shawnie said above. Ammonia can have lasting effects or what SOF said about the fluctuation in the ph .

Do you have aeration in the tanks? That might help.....and start with #1. Put water in a bucket test it for ph. Add the ceramic decoration see if the ph drops.
On another note, with ph that low ammonia converts to the less toxic ammoniun and If I remember correctly very low ph can hinder the growth of beneficial bacteria

plaperriere

Hello again. Update to my situation from the last 2 days...

(Death Toll - 4 fish)

Today I had a great idea (should have thought of this last night) of testing the "Fry Tank" I set up a week ago with Tetra Safe Start...and get a PH reading. The PH reading in that tank (which had nothing but rocks and two artificial plants in it) was around a 6.8-7.0ppm. I then tested my 20 gallon again...and it remains at 6.0. So...there is certainly something causing the drastic difference in PH. I removed all the ceramic ornaments from my tank and hope that the PH will begin to level out (how long, anyone know?).

If that does not work...I will remove all the plants. One thing I did notice was that some of the rocks seem to have white "paint" chipping off them. Is that normal? I was wondering if the rock bed could be the issue?

I am assuming that the only way at this point to figure out why the water is at such a low PH is by the process of illimination...correct? What baffles me...is...if the PH has always been at 6.0 (or lower)...and the fish lasted this long...is the PH what caused this whole issue...or was it the dead cory and the ammonia posioning. My real question is...what killed the cory. Maybe it was the Tetra Algae Control I put in the tank. I dont know. But, it is extremely upsetting to lose 4 fish (including the last remaining fry from the mother that died last night) so quickly when 1 week ago...everything was good.

P.S. There is still increased amounts of ammonia in the tank tonight when I checked the PH. Did a 50% water change...and used prime. But, I am assuming that the ammonia levels will go back to normal soon...and that they spiked because of the drastic measures i am taking with water changes. Any ideas...would be appreciated. Thanks for listening to my ranting!

Nate McFin

It could well have been the Algae stuff. I wont add it to my tanks personally. Corys are very sensitive to water quality and ph or algae meds could cause problems. I am glad you may have found the answer with the Ph.
By the way, your ph should come back up with water changes if the cermaics were the cause. (which I would say is almost certainly the case) The plants themselves wouldnt lower the Ph. They can rob the water of minerals if you have soft water (and a lack of
Co2) and raise the Ph though. If you had plants that had rotting material I suppose it could cause a Nitric or Nitrous acid affect but your Nitrates and Nitrites were fine so I dont suppose that is the case. The rocks as I remember would also not be the problem as they would only raise Ph as well.
Keep us posted after the next few water changes...I am looking forward to a positive outcome for you!