CWO4GUNNER

I just wanted to post as a beginner (using cycle method) that after the beginning of the 9th week of stocking my new 60ga aquarium withfish and coming through ending my cycle early last week. I did my weekly 50% water change yesterday after 9 days since my last water change and today I tested and my water numbers are perfect with pH 7.2 and all other readings including nitrate are 0 (ZERO). I almost could not believe what I was seeing this with 30 adult fish and a canister filter that has not been chnages in 19 days. I credit a major part of this success to my extra plant filter seen in my avatar which has grown since that last photo. The growth representing a substantial portion of these fertilizer toxins IMHO. I predict as the plants gets massive reaching the window light the water test will only become consistently zero perhaps to the point that toxins are unheard of in a hydroponic planted tank (HPT). We will see.

cerianthus

Although have tried similar fashion but not to zero. My bioload was too massive for few plants to do the job. glad to hear it is working well for you and hope it stays that way!

docjr03

Congrats!
If you research planted aquariums, I have found that most experienced aquariusts expect 0's for all there numbers, and some don't even change the water but maybe a couple times a year (the low tech ones, anyway). Others will even say that AOB's and NOB's aren't even necessary in a heavily planted tank because plants prefer ammonium, nitrites and nitrates as nutrients. Good Luck with your tank!

CWO4GUNNER

Well according to your profile "you only have saltwater fish". That puts you in a much higher league then freshwater IMO. Saltwater people have my highest respect and admiration for the challenge alone. freshwater fish keeping something I have accepted as my limitation. Even so hydroponic land plants can only thrive in fresh water anyway except for a very few.

CWO4GUNNER

Yes I have heard that "water Planted tanks" have this success for those that are committed and have the experience to make underwater plants thrive with special lighting and co2 supplementation. Only one site I have found that talks about the concept of using an aquarium filter water return stream for house plants so nutrients are directed over the roots for hydroponic growth. His idea blue print has a plastic window box behind the entire length of the aquarium like a hang filter only return line water comes in at one end and discharg water at the other end with plants in the middle. No special care except pruning. Theoretically the root bulb once large will act like a self cleaning filter with water return almost clean enough to drink. But that's a bit far fetched IMO. Fact is my plants have required no care except pruning dead leaves which actually fall and I pick up so no decay inside and no special needs. Although an above hydroponic planted tank will never look as good as an inside planted tank, at least its an option for those that need a very low maintenance solution to nitrates and still have something beautiful growing on top.

agabr123

congratulations! you've been battling that cycle for quite some time now!

CWO4GUNNER

Thanks everyone. Believe it or not the stress and battle have been so much fun for ME. The only thing challenging to do now is try and reduce my water chnages against the plant filters ability to cope. Iv decided to make my next super size tank a large species tank so that what I have now, the Gobi, Shark and Pleco will have a better home, maybe with some other large guys like Parrot fish. I plan to cycle it with the healthiest feeder minnows I can find. Even after I cycle I will keep the tank in quarantine for a week with a UV filter. I know this time aground I will not sacrifice one minnow to toxins and they will be fattened up.

CWO4GUNNER

An aside on my water test results in week 11 following my first major canister filter change since cycling perfect numbers. With about 20 days since the filter change late last week went inside and cleaned everything with aquarium water that was reusable and changed out blacked angel hair for new. I reported that the filter change had no effect on ammonia or nitrite which remained 0 and still are 0 what I did not mention was that nitrate did spike from 0 to 5-10-20 PPM over 3 days then subside back to 0 on the 4th day. Although I was able to understand why nitrate subsided back to 0 without a waterchange due to my nitrate plant filter which is growing like crazy, what perplexed me is why and how nitrate spiked in the first place on the heels of a filter cleaning.

This is one I don't even have a theory on and I checked and retested over the 4 days period nitrate rose and fell back, anyone hear of this happening before any theory's?

cerianthus

Although you seemed to be enjoying all the work/maintenances performed on tank, our test kits are somewhat crude methods of testing (as someone mentioned, nitrate test reagent has to be tapped/banged to loosen the crystalized reagent to dissolve before testing and who knows what kind of reaction it gone thru as exposed to air) thus as long as w/i reasonable range, i would not go overboard with an issue. Well, I am a pursuer for an answers just like you, maybe more, but i came to conclusion that when w/i reason, good enough for fish. As far as slight peak of nitrate before dropping coud be for many reasons if testing yields are accurate. Extra feeding or feeding itself can induce slight peak as more are produced as digested before dropping/controlled, for instance. No def answers.

As far as F/W, one too many in my youth. My mother would refer me as being fish before reincarnated, lol! She/my neighbor hated those extra insect flying around in backyard due to my experiments/tempting raising my own mosquito/insect larvae as free food source for my growing babys. Due to tanks and pots and barrels in backyard, no spraying of any chemicals. Well, ,my father on the other hand always encourage my experiments. He himself loves fish keeping as much as i do, and still does and have learned quite a few from him where he have learned just thru observations.
With plants in filter, have tried in S/W and F/W. For s/w Mangrove stems in HOB refugium.

Another thing about S/W, it is not as hard as one would think, I would say it is easier to maintain than F/W once established (less fish per Gal for example thus NO3 produced). It just cost bit more to start and maintained, especially reef set up (high electric bill). Would you belive me If I told you I ran Reef set up on just PHs, Protein skimmer and Double Fluo tubes for long time? Of course, live rock(LR) is given. It is not that hard.
Start poking around S/W section where you might even gain some tip for F/W.

CWO4GUNNER

Yeah been banging away before testing nitrates using both No1&2 bottles but I keep hearing that recommendation every time I don't mention it. Perhaps since during that same filter change I stepped up use of frozen worms/brine shrimp vice dry, the water that they are suspended frozen contains nitrates maybe.
Another aside, I just did my weekly water change today which included some might say a major change to water chemistry. This change due to my Hedra Ivy plant filter although growing fast is experiencing some salt symptoms of browning tipped leafs even on new leafs. So rather then my old 50% waterchange formula of 25ga softener well water and 5ga RO, I bypassed the softener with the cutout valve and use 29ga well and 1ga RO. Everything went without a hitch except 2 hours later I did notice a change in my large Tiger barbs, molly's, and Gobi. The large Tiger Barbs are chasing and nipping one another while the female Tiger Barb is sitting in the corner like she is tasting the water not gulping just rapid lip movement. Also I think my Molly's are more lethargic and sort of using their rear fin more to swim then their side fins. But most noticeable is the Gobi who will not come out of his hide for s feed offering, just sort of sitting their spaced out. So I'm off to buy that water quality hardness and salinity test kit I have been putting off and see what the differences between my softener water and un-conditioned well water is. My API number are AM-0; Nitri-0; Nitra-0, and PH 7.4...

CWO4GUNNER

Well just called around to see if they are in yet but nither of our 2 LFS have received or have any idea when replacement GH/KH API water test kits will arrive, so I'm going to have to order my own online for $6 plus shipping about $8 unless you include other stuff you don't make out on shipping. Maybe Ill get a long arm latex glove to keep my arm dry.

cerianthus

I really dont see the need for this test kit for your fish unless desired. Even so called perfect water condition can/will cause problems to fish since fish requirements can be somewhat different in their preferences. Constant disturbances may be the culpit for causing problems sometimes. Like I said, as long as avoid extremes, should be oK
As far as Molly ,if wiggling, showing clamped fins and tail, may need treament/dipping when Q/t is not an option. Clamped fins can lead to secondary infection on pectoral fins. Depending on how bad, may need two kinds of med. Plz do not use this med in main tank.
Do you happened to remember Superking/Aquaking Filter from 70's and/or
80's?
If so, see if can get couple of filter boxes only.This box are HOB plastic Box.
This box can be hung inside the tank as hospital when Q/T is not available.
Since inside the tank, temp is stablized. Just figure out the volume of water in box (have to have enough to keep the box down) thus can determine the amt of med and salt to be used. Having measuring syringe will assit with precise measurement of liquid med. Having mini scale to cut Antibiotic (powder) wii assit also if desired.
Again this is with an assumption that Molly are suffering/experiencing clamped fin (Pretty common in livebearers).
With just clamped fin, used to use Formalite I by Aquatronics which worked very well as long as fish does not have any open wounds. DO not use when open wounds are visible.
When clamped fin is associated w/ bacterial/fungal infection, used to use Amphicillex by Aquatronics (Amphicillin) along with Formalite I with excellent results.
It all depends how fast it is diagnosed and properly treated.

I do not know if these products are still avail nor if your molly is sick as described, but hope this info can be utilized when needed.

BTW, can add small amount of aeration, I mean tiny, gentle aeration for the box.
You can even contact DANNER To see if box is still avail or use its equivalents by Lee's Products.

CWO4GUNNER

Thanks for the info and concern, appreciated.
The problem for me isn't that I want perfect water, it is that I need to strike a balance between my nitrate plant filters ability to tolerate salt (a number which until moment ago I did not know) and the need of my dragon Gobi and other brackish fish to have enough electrolytes to function well, while at the same time reduce toxic levels of calcium magnesium TDS in my water. This all started because I noticed my nitrate plant filter although sprouting like crazy is also experiencing leaf burn on the edges a tell tale sign that there is slightly too much salt in the water. So in that attempt unfortunately without doing the math first, I attempted to lower my sodium content by bypassing my home water softener, at that point noticing my fish absolutely behaving differently in a negative way. I since found out today from our city water board that our recent testing of TDS (total dissolved solids) from our wells is 837 PPM, of which 84.5 PPM is calcium. I also found out that my water softener ion exchange which YES DOES REMOVE these solids in exchange for sodium (just like softener pillows or zeolites same exact thing only better). That exchange rate is almost proportional meaning about 800 PPM of salt or about 1.6 Tbs per 5 gallons of water, however my addition of 15% RO was actually 600 PPM of salt still OK for the sensitive fish and great for brackish fish but still 300 PPM too much salt for my salt tolerant plant. Having changed this mix today in aquarium without doing this math first has my aquarium in a not so good situation of 700 PPM TDS and 100 PPM salt, great for the plant and enough electrolytes for all the fish but far too much magnesium/calcium (700 PPM) the toxic level for freshwater fish being 500 PPM. So I have to do another water change tonight soon by removing 20ga and adding 10ga RO and 10ga Softener water. This should bring me back to a better balance both my fish and plant can live with but most importantly lower the dissolved magnesium/calcium content and bringing my fish back to their old playful selves.

cerianthus

Although good at math myself, not knowing/using Molairty/Normality Concepts, I would say proper calculation is an uphill battle. Water chemistry is not a simple field as you probably know. Personally dont want go that far for fish tank even for reef. I loose enough hair as is. Probably would loose lot less when have few nice tank running, be it f/w or s/w, regardless of what BIG BOSS might say. But wishful thinking, lol.
Do understand the fact high salt for plant is an issue. On the other hand, TDS, unless dealing with a very sensitive fish such as discus or alike (from really soft water), your RO system should be enough for fish you keep. It is very possible to achieve and enjoy without going that far, imo.
Even though you seemed to enjoy all the work involved, just reading your post made me WOW!. I rather have you sit back and enjoy as it should be since tank is well established.. Just out of concern, that is all.

CWO4GUNNER

Long story short this water change (15 minutes ago) appeared to help, the Gobi bringing his buried head out of the sand, something he has never done, now swimming normally again. Trying to get the numbers right usually affords us tolerance on both sides in life so the extra effort is usually worth it in my book. Anyway in consideration of 800 Cal/Mag TDM tap water my new formula is 37.5% sodium exchange, 37.5% Cal/Mag, RO 25%. This comes to 300PPM salt, 300PPM Cal/Mag, 0PPM RO. Enough salt for electrolytes, low enough salt for my plant filter, and 200 PPM below the Cal/Mag toxicity for fresh water fish. This on top of keeping track of evaporation (top line) for replacement with of course RO only. The priorities here are the reasonable cost of purchased RO at 20 cents a gallon, and the nitrate plant filter which must work to provide some reasonable relief for water changes say once a month 50% ($6 monthly RO) would make me euphoric although I would be very happy with 15 days.