audithom

So after waiting for the tank to finish cycling.. I got 3 otto cats, 4 feeder guppies, 9 ghost shrimp, and to top it off I purchased a figure 8 puffer. The feeder were to help cycle the tank, and the ghost shrimp are for the puffer to eat. He looks health and living.

Amanda

You're turning your tank brackish?

sirdarksol

In the long run, the figure 8 and the otos won't do well together. The guppies can take or leave the brackish water, but otos can't stand salt, and the puffer will have its life doubled or more with a brackish setup.
Aside from that, the puffer may kill the guppies. They can sometimes be territorial.

jgon_

Yeah, its great that you have such a nice big tank for an F8, but for the long run, you're going to want to make a low brackish tank which means the tank-mates are gonna have to go.

pinkfloydpuffer

He's a cute guy
As said above, he'll need brackish though

audithom

i am turning it brackish slowly, hoping that the ottos will accept the salt in water. It is a slow process. I am keeping an eye on all the fish as time goes on. We will see. Is there any alge eater out there that is good with brackish water just in case I will need them later on?

pinkfloydpuffer

Otos definitely won't be able to handle the salt.
Your best bet for algae eaters is probably going to be mollies honestly, and they're certainly not the best at that...

shadowavenger

If all else fails, a chinese algae eater should work for awhile. I believe they can handle salt. Mine doesn't seem to mind conditioning salts.

CWO4GUNNER

I think the term brackish and salty need to be defined. I know for example that allot of fresh water fish that need salt need very little and allot of fresh water fish that supposedly cant tolerate brackish water can tolerate some salt. And I know of some LFS that use salt in all there aquariums and swear by it. I think the whole subject is used way too loosely and an table with fresh water species and milligrams of sodium chloride is needed to developed to bring objectivity to all the dogma.
I have Cory's and Plecos that supposedly should have died by now because I use a water softener which according to some pumps out salt water , on top of that I use the proponents recommendation of 1 Tbls salt per 50 gallons. My Cory's and Pleco are doing marvelous including my Colombian Shark. While I do believe there are a tiny minority of species that require absolutes, 'by and large' these terms are way overblown IMHO.
Oh.. I forgot to mention my hydroponic hang-filter plants which are thriving should also be dieing do the salt in my water..

pinkfloydpuffer

Technically, brackish is when you use marine salt, not aquarium salt.
And Colombian Sharks are actually very brackish fish, so it makes sense that he is doing well......

shadowavenger

I don't think it matters what kind of salt is used. I think its more of a matter of ions present in solution. A salt of any kind is an ionic compound, containing a metal, usually from group I on the periodic table, and a non metal. In water, most salts dissociate, meaning that the atoms break apart and become surrounded by water molecules, and the atoms themselves become charged. NaCl is made from sodium and chlorine. The charges are +1 for sodium and -1 for chlorine. When they are together, their charges are neutral. But in water they ionize and become electrolytes. I think that fish don't require a specific type of salt, but just require there to be electrolytes in water. The conditioning salt that I use is sodium phosphate, which is a very good buffer. But it will also provide ions for the fish. The electrolytes are necessary for digestion as well as to help regulate osmosis through the skin.

All natural water sources contain electrolytes so there is no such thing as a fresh water fish. I don't think fish could survive in 100% deionized water. But the accepted definitions of fresh brackish salt and brine are this:

fresh < .5 PPM
brackish .5 - 30 PPM
Marine (salt) 30- 50 PPM
Brine > 50 PPM

with my mollies, I keep the salt content around .2 PPM that way its still fresh water but there are enough electrolytes to prevent shimmies.

sirdarksol

Cwo4gunner:
The terms "brackish" and "saltwater" are very well defined. "Saltwater" refers to oceanic salt levels. "Brackish" refers to water that has less salinity than saltwater but higher than freshwater (which has no salt or little enough that it doesn't readily register on refractometer).
also...
Nobody ever said that water softeners pump out saltwater. What we did say is that it doesn't actually remove mineral from the water, it just exchanges one with another. Also, nobody said that it would outright kill any of your fish, we just said that it's not necessarily good for them.

You wanted numbers, though, and I did provide one above:
Figure 8 puffers kept in brackish water generally live twice as long as the same puffers when kept in fresh water.
Otos are extremely fragile little fish, and have a nasty habit of dying on their owners if exposed to even the tiniest registerable amount of salt.
Guppies are amazing little fish, and have been known to survive several years even in full salt water (this is not a suggestion that anybody do this, though.) They are incredibly adaptable.

edit: Shadowavenger. Some good info, but there is strong support that fishes' bodies favor certain electrolytes over others. Most of the time, the calcium is better for them than the sodium. Most creatures need more calcium than they do sodium, and are capable of drawing the calcium from water. It's believed to be one of the secrets of long life of certain groups of native Central Americans. They live in areas where the water is heavy in calcium ions.

CWO4GUNNER

I have heard better things about sodium phosphate in comparison to Sodium Chloride salts and have considered changing over. Thanks for the definitions, I do need to get test kit for my water to see exactly what I have. Brackish being 30 PPM, that is the same as milligrams per gallon liter. I'm surprised brackish so low. I think our well water untreated is at least 50 milligrams per liter. I know salt water contains 35000 PPM so shouldn't brackish be just a bit higher? So since 1 tablespoon of salt in 5 gallons is equal to 5500 PPM (the recommended dose for all FW sick fish) my use of 1 tablespoon of salt per 50 gallons is 110 PPM more than 3 times that needed for brackish water. And since (according to the experts) 500 PPM is considered OK for "fish sensitive to saltwater like Catfish, Tetras, and fish such as Elephant Nose who do not tolerate salt well, they still MUST have some electrolytes and can tolerate some salt up to 500MGs or PPM long term." So this discussion about brackish killing Cory's and fresh water killing Sharks and hover fish is all moot!

audithom

Ok I know it is said that they should be in brackish water. By multiple readings I have seen that they can be kept in freshwater. If it needs to be in brackish water how long do I have to switch over to it being brackish. I am not worried about the ottos if I have to move them I will hope for the best and get them in my 75 gallon tank. They might stand a chance of getting away from the turtle, he is not a great swimmer.

sirdarksol

I think the number I read was that figure 8's tend to live around 4 years in fresh water, 10 years in an appropriate brackish amount (a range on the low end that, I'm sure, PinkFloydPuffer will provide for me if she's still lurking in this thread). The longer you keep it in brackish, the shorter its total life will likely be.

MaddieLynn

They -can- be kept in fresh water, just like bettas and goldfish -can- be kept in bowls. But none of them will live a full life.

pinkfloydpuffer

You mean the longer you keep it in fresh the shorter it's total life will be?

Yes, that sounds about accurate. And even if they do live as long as ones kept in brackish, they do not grow as fast or as large.

CWO4GUNNER

OK well I got some updated salinity numbers from Microcosm Aquarium Explorer web site as follows:

The classification of different waters by their salt content, as measured by specific gravity (relative density, the most-common measure among aquarists) is:

* Marine or Saltwater 1.022 – 1.035
* Brackishwater 1.05 – 1.010
* Freshwater 1.0

Salinity or salt content is measured as parts per million (ppm) or mg/L:

* Marine or Saltwater: 3-5% or 30,000-50,000 ppm
* Brackishwater 0.05-3% or 500-30,000 ppm
* Freshwater <0.05% or <500 ppm

So it still looks like 500 PPM or about 5 tablespoons per 50 gallons (1TblsX10ga) is the threshold between fresh and brackish and according to the experts is still OK for long term use with "salt sensitive species. Now I know why I hear so much about 1 tablespoon of salt per 10 ga being used so much by proponents. So I guess my shark will live at least 75% of his full life span if i toss in another 2 tablspoons, that is if Im not already there and I do need to test for this long term. So 500PPM is the universal salt/fresh nexus.

jgon_

Why not just use ppt or psu...save you a lot of zeros :P

CWO4GUNNER

Because I'm not that smart LOL

pinkfloydpuffer

So, what's my tank?!?!?!? 1.014 SG

sirdarksol

I also haven't seen any recommendations for 1.035 marine aquaria.
Don't worry, I'm pretty sure your special little guys are still living in brackish water, despite that table consigning them to oblivion.

CWO4GUNNER

Looks like the nexus to me, remember its a quote, not my data. But dont feel bad as I dont have a good idea where Im at. I need to buy one of the expensive hydrometer for $14 to find out.

pinkfloydpuffer

Oh good. I was worried that maybe they didn't really exist and that they were only a sweet sweet dream...

audithom

well I am grateful I have found this site cause I am constantly learning things. I am slowly changing to brackish. I am going to try to post a couple pics once I get everything all set. Another quick question though, How well planted should the tank be? I heard to have is well planted so the puffer does not get bored as of right now I can see the back but mostly from the one side.

pinkfloydpuffer

Add as much stuff as you can cram in there while still leaving some swimming room, and ample open space for swimming.
You'll be able to tell if he gets bored, as he'll start pacing up and down the glass

audithom

well i guess I need more cause he has been pacing up the side but barely comes to the other side that is planted more. Maybe when i do a water change I rearrange the tank a bit.

pinkfloydpuffer

They do get bored rather easily lol.

audithom

yea and i understand they like to beg as well.. that's entertaining cause i have 2 tanks not far from each other. One has a turtle which does the same thing. Just goes back and forth along the front of the tank.

pinkfloydpuffer

Yep, that's what puffers do! Once they feel secure in their homes and learn that you=food, they're there with smiling faces and big eyes BEGGING for food! lol