esbright1

Hi,
I am very new to keeping tropical fish. I have had my tank now for 2 weeks, and its freshwater tank. I haves 4 glass fish, 4 neons and 3 clown loachs. The loaches have been in a week tomorrow (02.02.09). I cleaned the tank on Friday as recommened - once a week, but on Saturday morning woke up to white spots on the Clown loachs. I went straigt to the pet shop and said to raise the temperature up to 29/30 degress c and once it hit this temp take out the carbon and add the chemicals he gave me - "costapur, water treatmet against ICH", the product is by sera. Was told to add this on the Saturday and then again on Monday, and see if the spots come off. If not add again on Wednesday.
Today, Sunday, I have white particles in the water, is this the parasite?
Am I doing the right thing to get rid of them?

agabr123

hmm...i'm not sure what the white particles in the water are, but the white spots definitely sound like ich. however, i wouldn't add the medication. i'd just leave the temperature at 83-84F (not sure how that compares in celsius) and make sure you do thorough gravel vacuums.

is your tank cycled? do you have readings for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate? also, what size is the tank? clown loaches get VERY big and can outgrow a tank pretty quickly.

esbright1

Hi Alex,
Thanks for your reply. Unfortunatly I put the medicaine in on Saturday as this is what my pet shop told me to do. I have the temperature right up to 30degs c which is 86 deg f. The pet shop hasnt told me anything about vacuming the gravel, or cycling my tank. Only by registering on this am I learning more things.
The tank is 50 liters, which I think is around 10/13 gallons. The pet shop actually recommened the clown loach and said nothing about size.
The tests that the pet shop have given me are pH and ammonia:
PH is between 7.5 and 8
Ammonia is 0mg - 1mg

agabr123

oh no, i'm sorry you got such bad advice but clown loaches get extremely large!!!! you will either need to return/sell them or get a MUCH larger tank.
here are pictures of fully grown clown loaches, and some more info on them as well
http://www.loaches.com/species-index...a-macracanthus

your tank is going through (or went through, depending on how long it's been up) the nitrogen cycle. please read these links for your fish
http://www.fishlore.com/NitrogenCycle.htm
http://www.fishlore.com/Articles/TheNitrogenCycle.htm

also, you need to be gravel vacuuming your tank and doing weekly water changes of anywhere from 25-45%
http://www.americanaquariumproducts....iumvacuum.html
that's the gravel vac that i use and it works really well, basically, you get the vac started (either self start it or just suck on the end of the tube until water comes over the top loop) and dig it around in the gravel/hover it over the sand and it will suck up all the waste, and remove water from your tank to make water changes easier.

i'd buy an API freshwater master test kit, they are liquid strips, extremely accurate, and test ammonia, nitrite, nitrate which are absolutely necessary to know, as you'll find out if you read those links


PS i see you're from cyprus, i'm greek and both of my dads parents were from cyprus as well

esbright1

Well when we were in the store the guy was very helpfull and had loads of information to give us, but now it doesnt seem that he has given us enough info. Ive read the links re the cycle, but I understood the second one much better. So my next step is to get the liquid strips (if I can get them in Cyprus) we are using this companies products http://www.sera.de/index.php?id=645&L=1 and also the gravel vac. Our guy told us to only change 5litles maximun - (1 tenth of the tank) once a week. But we changed our water on Friday and the water is not crystal clear, is that because of the ich do you think.?

If we are unfortunate enough to get the ich again, how do we get rid of it without using chemicals, Ive read about putting the temperature up and using Salt? also how long does it normaly take to go.

Sorry for all the questions, but we are really new to all this and of course want to be sucessfull and our tank is only 2 weeks old.

What a conincidence that you have family from Cyprus! Thanks for all your help it is really appreciated

agabr123

oh, i said the wrong thing! they aren't liquid strips they are liquid tests, they should come with test tubes and you a certain amount in the tube and add the drops. lol, my mistake!

yeah, for getting rid of ich put the temperature up to about 84F degrees very slowly, about one degree per hour so you don't shock the fish. leave it that way for about two weeks and make sure to do a thorough gravel vacuum to get up all the spores.

since you're still in the middle of your cycle you should get a product called Prime made by Seachem, if you can't find that you want to find something that says that it detoxifies ammonia (but does NOT lock it, it has to leave it accessible to the biological filter), and also detoxifies chlorine, chloramine, and heavy metals to use for water changes. during the cycle 50% water changes are necessary if you have fish in order to prevent them from being exposed to ammonia and nitrite, which are toxic. once you get through the cycle (0ppm ammonia 0ppm nitrite 5-20ppm nitrate) then you can switch to weekly water changes of anywhere from 25-45% with gravel vacuum. there isn't really any bacteria in the water that is helpful to the filter, it's mostly on the filter media, on decorations, and in the substrate, so doing large water changes won't hurt anything, but over cleaning can. having said that, you shouldn't try to remove the gravel and rinse it, and if you need to rinse plants you should do it in tank water that you remove during a water change or water that has been dechlorinated.

also, you don't want to ever replace your filter media unless it is literally falling apart. when that happens, buy a new cartridge, but leave the old media in for about a month to let enough bacteria build up on the new cartridge so you don't send yourself into a mini cycle.

i know it's a lot of info to process, but please feel free to ask more questions!

yeah, my dad's side is from cyprus and my moms side is from mainland greece

esbright1

Great thanks for the info. In the back of the tank there are sections, one with ceramics in, another with carbon, and te third one with like a big sponge and on top of that its like cotton wool. Our guy told us, that we dont need to change the ceramincs, change the carbon every 90 days and the cotton wool stuff once a week. But with the carbon, he said once the ich has gone for about 3 days, replace the old carbon and then after 48hrs put a new one in. ??

What part of Cyprus are they from?

agabr123

i don't use carbon in any of my tanks unless i'm filtering out medications. after a while, the carbon starts to break down and can leech things back into the tank. I just use filter floss which i guess is what you're referring to as cotton wool. all you need to do really is get the part of the filter that looks like the cotton wool and put it in.

i have a whisper filter for one of my tanks, and i use cartridges that look like this
http://fun4pets.com/store/images/biobags.jpg
they have carbon in the middle but i dump it out and rinse them.

you don't need to replace your media unless it's literally falling apart, just rinse it in tank water that you remove during water changes about once a month. if you do ever need to replace it, then get new media but keep the old media in for about a month so enough bacteria builds up on the new cartridge.

hmm, i dont remember the name of the village my grandmother lived in but i know that my grandfather had a lot of land that was right on the border of the part that the turkish took over.

esbright1

Thanks. The fish look better to and the spots seem to be going. The water is also much clearer today. I went to the pet store and got a vac to hoover the gravel so will do one friday when I clean them. Thanks very much for the info youve put my mind at rest.

agabr123

No problem Congratulations, and good luck!!! Don't hesitate to post if you have any other questions!

esbright1

Hi again. I have thought of another question. When you change the water do you use a thermometer to make sure that the water is at the right temp because, I am cleaning them tomorrow and I dont want to shock them again!

Very happy today there are only 1 or 2 spots on them now and the water is cryastal clear! :-)

agabr123

Yes absolutely! Whenever you do a water change, getting it as close as possible to the temperature of the tank is extremely helpful and will keep your fish from getting too stressed. Big fluctuations in temperature can be really harmful to them.

Congrats! Keep up the treatments, as most of the ich spores are actually in their gills where you cant see them, not on their bodies.

esbright1

Oh really, there bodies are almost clear now apart from 1 or 2 spots. The guy in the shop said if they still have spots tomorrow treat again. Is this correct if there are only a couple of spots remaining?

Also is there a reason why the temperature cant stay at 30deg all the time?

Bit worried as we have got to clean them tomorrow and dont want to stress them and bring the ich back!!!

joy613

The white stuff floating around in your tank could have been one stage of the life cycle of ich. In extreme cases you can actually see them in the tank. Medicine only kills one stage of the ich. The higher temperatures actually help the ich to mature and die faster, that is why they recommend to keep your temperature turned up that long. Having to high of temperature can cause the fish to stress and that is why most keep it turned down to the mid to upper 70f.

It is more important you keep your tank clean now than ever until you get rid of the ich.

agabr123

I would keep the temperature up for at least two or three days after all of the spots on their bodies have vanished.

I'd turn it back down a little (to 80F or 79F) after you're done treating (generally around two weeks, longer if you still see spores by day 12 or after), temps that high arent good long term, especially for neons as they are so sensitive.

esbright1

I thought it might have been the ich in the water. Even though the spots have almost gone I can see some particles in the water, does this matter, or will they go automatically or is there to get rid of them the water?

agabr123

I'd try and gravel vacuum as much of it out as you can. You need to do very thorough gravel vacs anyways to get up the ich spores that you've killed with the temperature and meds, so I'd get up as much as you can then.

esbright1

Well I sucessfully cleaned yesterday and the new water I put back in was the same temp at the tank water, and hooray no white spots today!! The water is crystal clear, we can still see the white particles in the water, but not as much, Im pressuming we got a load up yesterday when we vacumed. It was much easier using the vacum to get the water out.

How many fish would you reccomend for a tank our size? Our guy in the pet shop reccomends 15 max.

agabr123

for a 50 liter tank? that's about 13 gallons so.... well it depends what you want.

you could get six male guppies (if you don't want fry, only get males, even if you get all females they could come to you pregnant), OR you could get three guppies and three corycats, OR you could get three mollies OR three platies, or you could get a nice school of tetras (neons, rummynose, cardinals, etc) but 15 is WAY too many fish.

generally one inch of fish per gallons is the max, and that's more of a guideline and not a rule, you need to think about aggression and compatibility and size. for example, a 12 inch oscar is never going to be happy in a 12 gallon tank.

esbright1

Lovely thanks. That is more or less what our guy said 15 is to many. We deffinatly want to get a couple of snails, are they difficult to look after? What do the feed on apart from Algea? Would you reccomend a particular snail?

agabr123

snails are awesome! i have lots now (by accident), a few snuck in on some live plants that i bought. they feed on algae, but you should probably buy some calcium carbonate otherwise their shells will get soft. it depends what you're looking for, i've really wanted malaysian trumpet snails for a while, especially because i have sand for substrate and they help aerate it. nerite snails are neat, i'd stay away from apple snails because they get gigantic (i've seen ones the size of a grapefruit!)

here's some more info
http://www.aquaticcritter.com/Freshw...boutSnails.htm
http://www.otocinclus.com/articles/snails.html
http://www.peteducation.com/article....+1911&aid=2570

esbright1

Thanks for the links, am reading them now. Is there a limit to how many you should have?

agabr123

lol, that depends on how often they reproduce!!! as far as i know, there really isn't any agreed upon limit for snails. most people dont want them, and a lot of times your LFS will give them to you for free since they don't want them either i have lots of baby pond snails in my 10 gallon (which is a little overstocked anyways) and if you just feed a little less and gravel vacuum to get a few of them up then you should be okay. if it becomes a problem, then you can put a slice of cucumber on a veggie clip at night and sink it to the bottom, in the AM when you pull it out there should be lots of snails on it

NUMB3RS

Good Job I had ich too and i cured it too so im very happe

joy613

Depending on the snails they can have a rather big bioload. I have snails a couple ramhorns in one tank, a few pond snails in a couple of tanks and some MTS in other tanks. You can control the population by not overfeeding them. MTS are live bearing snails, the pond and ramhorn is egg laying.