CWO4GUNNER

After a 3 weeks of successful battles with my new aquarium and new 28 fish I have been pretty cocky about the enemy Darth ammonia and his side kick Prince nitrite. But yesterday morning a large attack was mounted by the enemy and Ammonia PPM was up to 2. PPM, nitrite .25 PPM, and nitrate 5. PPM. and there was my first casualty a Sunburst Platy was taken down. But with my Allie pH only at 7.4 PPM I was confident that I would have it under control. So I fired back at the enemy hordes with my daily 7% water change (75% Tap & 25% RO), then I napalmed the enemy with 12 ounces of freshly charged ammonia chips. Confident that I had surly routed the dark-side I rested that evening. This morning waking early for church I confidently glanced at the battlefield to find my pelco floating and 3 other Platies gasping at the surface. Enemy strength was Ammonia 4 PPM, nitrite .50 PPM, nitrate 5 PPM and PH 7.4. With less then an hour before morning services I jumped into action first skipping breakfast for both me and the troops and then immediately LED a counter attacked on the enemy with a 30% water change of pure RO, laughing wildly with the heat of battle surly I knew this would catch the enemy flat footed. I then mercilessly followed up with a bombardment of full dose ammonia lock and nitraban Ha-ha! Confident the battle was mine I heading off to Church services.
UPDATE: 11am The battle field looks sparkling and clear as glass. The fish are swimming hungrily against the glass facing me, wonder why chow hasn't been served yet. So cautiously confident we continue the fast until Intel can be gathered on what surly must be a high enemy kill report. As I read the results I could hardly believe my eyes, enemy troop strength had almost doubled in 2 hours as follows: Ammonia 8 PPM, Nitrite did fall to .25 PPM and Nitrate remains at 5 PPM. The only thing I have going for me is that the use of pure RO did bring the PH down to 6.8 which is good news since the the low PH number according to the "ammonia/PH correction table" places my true free ammonia at 0-1 PPM. It seem that unless this "cycle" takes in my favor I may be out of ammo to prevent further casualties by Darth Ammonia's evil hordes. The only other thing I can think of is to open up my canister filter where the extra ammonia must be coming from and rinse out all the filter media in aquarium water to remove most of the bulk waste without taken out all the good bacteria, but looking through the clear plastic housing the media doesn't look bad for only 3 weeks. WHAT SAY YE ALL? Any suggestions at this point are welcome...Should I clean the filters in Aqua water?

Nick G

I'd do a 50% water change ASAP. 8ppm is a LOT of Ammonia, in fact I'm surprised you've any fish left! You need to dilute the ammonia and detoxify it. Prime is great for this , it'll detoxify the Ammonia for 24hrs until your next waterchange. With levels like yours you need to do 50% water changes daily until the tank is cycled.

prairielilly

It sounds like your aquarium isn't quite done cycling or is going through a mini-cycle...I'd use Prime as a water conditioner since it renders the ammonia/nitrite safer for fish but still available for the biofilter, and not add anything else to the water. I'd also just use tap water as it sounds like the RO is causing your pH to fluctuate quite a bit, which is very stressful for your fish. I'd then do 50% water changes and monitor the nitrogens daily until you're seeing zero levels for ammonia and nitrite consistantly. My experience has been that the more stuff I put in the water and the more I fuss with it, the harder it is on the fish - less action, but of the right kind, produces much better results.

navyscuba

I won't clean them just because the smallest move on the bacteria in my filter caused a minicycle after my tank was already cycled. So for now water changes and probably checking the parameters every two hrs or so and not letting the guard down. Keep up the watch. The troops will come and bite the enemy in the A.. haha. Later Sir.
PO2 Here.

Lucy

I'll second Nick on that and add one thing, Ammo lock locks up the ammonia and can starve the bacteria you need to process it.
It would be a good idea to stick with Prime and just detox it.

Although with an ammonia reading of 8ppm, I'd be tempted to use ammo lock too.

Good luck

CWO4GUNNER

I hope this table is correct and my true ammonia PPM is low.

Lucy

I'm curious, why are you adjusting your PH? Normally fish can adjust to your PH and appreciate it being stable rather than fluctuating.

prairielilly

More ammonia in the water will affect your pH true, bc it's an acid. However the levels of ammonia in your tank are dependent on 1) bioload in your tank; and 2) ability of your biofilter to handle the bioload. This takes time to develop and in the meantime is incredibly stressful on fish. Ammonia is measured in parts per million, plain and simple, not as 'true bad' relative to pH.

Lucy

I could be wrong, but I think I see where this is going. With PH levels lower than, I think 7 the fish waste and left over food creates ammonium. It'll still register on the API test as ammonia because the test can't differentiate between the two.

cerianthus

Just to make correction Ammonia is actually strong BASE not an Acid. What Gunner is trying to say is that NH3 is in form of non toxic Ammonium ion, very weak acid (NH4+) in lower pH which is true. Two forms are pH dependent. [NH3] will increase, [NH4+] will decrease as pH is increased

Another thought about any product such as AmmonLock and Amquel. These products might give you distorted Ammonia reading (believe it says on the bottle) if using one reagent NH3 test kit(cant remember the name of reagent) thus recommends to use Salicylate method Test kit (2 reagents) to get proper reading.

Even though fish can adapt to different pH, better off with pH of their natural habititat. Would not change it manually at this point but if at 6.8, leave for time being since lower ph means less toxic NH3 as Gunners graph points out.

Cut down on feeding and continue small PWC, even twice a day, to see drop in NH3 (would not try to bring it down to zero via pwc either). Lower the NH3 so that whatever amount of Nitrite Oxidizing bacteria does not become Inactive otherwise Nitrite will spike high (another battle) once NH3 is controlled biollogically. Unless new theory has been proven, Nitrobacter can not perform their duty (Haha) in presence of high [NH3].

Would not touch the filter at this point how filthy it may be. Such action can even delay the cycling process (retreating).

Question for you Gunner. What prompt you to have so many to start?
It seems you have done research/reading prior to setting up tank?
Or is it just you are dong it as going thru cycling process?

CWO4GUNNER

In my welcome to Fishlore post I mentioned that I have been away from the hobby for 35 years while in the service (8yrs Navy/22 years UCGC). Anyway retired for 5 years decided why not jump back in and the 60 G tank/stand combo st PetSart for only $265 pushed me over the edge. Of course 35 year old fish knowledge is zilch compared to today's understanding, back then we though fish death was normal in a Cristal clear tank. So I initially went on old knowledge and after detoxing the water for 2 days and heating it up to 75 degrees went on a fish and ornament buy frenzy. Fortunately the day after the main buy someone who actually knew something about fish at Petsmart lectured me and gave me a ton of required reading topics, so here we are on a very steep leaning curve just like old times in the service on a new assignment LOL.

UPDATE. I mentioned my aquarium was Cristal clear so 2 hours ago I shut of my 24W sterilizer that I have had on for 5 days. I thought maybe it was killing too many free floating good bacteria as well and guess what? The water is clouding up fast from Cristal clear and no feeding today. Could this reserve force good bacteria blooming in formation to save the day? I jsut went out and bought "Prime" as suggested but wondering if putting it in with already full dose ammo-lock and Nitraban is a bad idea? Time to test the water again and see what the enemy or bloom is up to, will report back

Shawnie

welcome to fishlore!! the clouding is suppose to be there as its a bacteria bloom and will clear up..at this point, the 50% a day water changes with the prime will get the tank through the rest of the cycle and save the fishies from the toxins....dont adjust the ph or anything else as the fish will adjust just fine....if your ammonia is still off the charts, id actually do 2 50% changes a few hours apart....bacteria isnt free floating as much as it is on hard surfaces...your filter media, decorations, subtrate etc...so no worries about the water and loosing bacteria..you need that ammonia lowered before you have more casualties ..goodluck!

CWO4GUNNER

Here is the data: Ammonia 8PPM if ever green was greener on the API test tube. PH up to 7.0 from 6.8, Nitrate still at 5.0 and Nitrite holding at .25.
OK I have a new strategy as I cant just sit by with 8 PPM water, all the fish are acting normal but I have 4 platy's skimming the surface, not gulping for air but kissing the surface like they are trying to skim for food. Anyway I digress, my strategy is to do a 50% water change (75% tap & 25% RO) which from my calculations should keep the PH where it is now. However I will also open up the canister filter and gently rise out the filter media of chunks in aquarium water as apposed to placing it is a mason jar and agitating the daylights out of it (what id like to do). install new carbon and ammonia chips and add Prime. What say ye all?

Shawnie

leave the filter alone..leave the media alone, and dont add ammonia chips...you need the ammonia to finish up the cycle but the prime will keep the fish safe...id do 2 50% changes ..one now and one right before bed...then test in the am...if you are still high in ammonia, id do another 2 tomorrow..one in the morning and one at nite..always with prime....test your tap water to see if you have ammonia in there...

CWO4GUNNER

I have tested both my RO and tap water both have 0 PPM Ammonia, Nitrite, & Nitrates. But my RO water is 6.8 PH and my tap water is 8.0.
I am having a decision problem based on the fact that after an earlier 30% water change with RO which as absolutely nothing in it, left my ammonia unchanged, which is impossible unless the filter is where the mass load ammonia is at (right fight-wrong battlefield). Since I have two filters, one hanging and one canister (older) changing out one filter should not upset the little devils that much (if the barracks is pigsty, clean it up). OR if I take your advice not touching the filters why in great hornytoads should I do such a large water change? I might as well do 10% and add the Prime just to give it some chem space. What say ye?

Well I cant wait with them fishes sorry faces staring out at me from the glass like I'm supposed to so something. So Ill go against me better judment but compromise a bit and do a 10% water change, add Prime and leave the filters be for now. But if I lose another crew member, this ship is off loading garbage at 0600.

Shawnie

if you feel there is tons of waste in the media, rinse it in the bucket of water you take out of the tank a few times...dont clean it per say tho...the ammonia is free floating and will decrease with water changes..the bacteria isnt as much free floating as they taught us years ago and adhears to surfaces .....after reading through your first thread the best I could LOL, you have nitrates so you are on your way and getting close ... ...you have some tough critters!!!!!!

hkirchen

I absolutely love your Darth Amonia tale! It gave me such a chuckle, I had to bring my husband to the computer.

Sorry your fishies are suffering, but you are getting great advice!

Hope everything stabilizes soon!

CWO4GUNNER

Well I knocked 2 birds out with 1 stone, doing the water change out and moving my tank and stand in a more balanced position which worked. I used what I though was a 60 gal trash can from the garage lined with a new plastic bag. The trash can worked great for holding the tank water temporarily except for that fact I found out it was really a 40 gal trash can and ran out of room for water, so I had to run the siphon hose out the window to drain another 20 gallons. This means that with my 1 hour earlier 8 gallon water change I actually was force to do about a 30 gallon water change which makes 50 for the day and of course add more Prime juice.
Anyway with only 15 gallons remaining in the tank I was able to move the tank away from the wall and move the tack back to the edge of the stand top placing much more wight on the back where there is much more support. I then realized I could use my Marineland 350 canister intake adapter normally used for vacuuming sand to pump the water back out of the trash can into the tank.
Now for the results. Ammonia down to 4 PPM from 8; Nitrite just shy of 0 PPM; Nitrate still holding at 5 PPM; and PH back up to 7.4 due to using 80% tap water this time, my mistake as I need PH to be lower to help detox ammonia. Oh well there is always tomorrow's water change with RO but for today I have called for a cease fire.

Lucy

Personally, I'd not mess with the PH. Prime or Stress Coat+ will detox the ammonia.

navyscuba

You are definitely like me always improvising to do the job easier and get the job done. Go NAVY. haha

CWO4GUNNER

Well I did my last water change for this evening or should I say morning (1am). After reading another article from an athority it confirmed that that although PH normally should never be changed dramatically, in an emergency where Ammonia it lethally high the risk is well worth it to keep lethal NH3 Ammonia locked up. Also I confirmed that if the waste load in the filter is too large all the water changes will not decrease the ammonia. So with having done a total of 75% water changes today with no appreciable difference in ammonia 8 PPM and no significant rise in Nitrates to indicate a coming cycle, I decided on a full scale Rambo style attack and nuked the enemy's command and control headquarters by cleaning out my canister filter in aquarium water. The carbon core granules were so dirty they were one solid mass of soil and the inner media was so bad I had to discard it, only the outer large mesh media designed specifically for the BIO organisms was water dusted and saved, this is where the ammonia was coming from no wonder the 20 ounces of ammonia chips had no effect as the filter was putting out an endless stream of ammonia IMO. After destroying the enemies command and control I followed up with one more special 15% water change using a cocktail of pure RO and 100ml or 8 tablespoons of distilled white vinegar as recommended by one authority I read which brought my PH back down from 7.4 to 6.5 locking up Darth Ammonia and his NH3 fish blaster. Besides the lower PH readings my Ammonia is now down to 2 PPM. until the next battle!

Shawnie

hmmm vinegar with the fish in the tank? thats new to me!! carbon after 2-3 weeks will pour all the nasties back into the tank as it cant absorb anymore so maybe that was playin a role also...

Butterfly

Drastic changes is Ph is stressful for your fish and can cause them to die and using chemicals to change it will allow it to fluctuate.
I've never heard of using vinegar in freshwater tanks only Reef (of course I don't know everything)
Plecos produce an awful lot of waste and in an un-cycled tank could account for that high amount of ammonia. Sorry you lost him .
Personally I would drop the chemicals, and different aides to control ammonia. Use prime and up the volume of water changed at each water change to at least 50%.
Carol

docjr03

Good luck, sir, in your quest to defeat the ammonia demons! As a former USCG BM, I am glad you saw the light and finished your career in the "correct" sea going service (sorry navyscuba!)

CWO4GUNNER

To be honest shipmates (navyscube & docr) both Navy and CG have great strength experiences for anyone wanting to experience life X2. I would never trade the my experiences in the Navy when as a young man my first 8 years of service took me to over 12 countries from riding camels in Pakistan to being chase by elephants in Africa. After those 8 years the USCG gave me the opportunity to have a more stable family life and a great opportunity in career challenges and responsibility because the USCG is so small it requires allot of real time work and responsibility from its members. My only regret is that it all went by so quickly between age 17 and 47 when I retired. Id do it all again.

CWO4GUNNER

About the battle front, no casualties this morning . Ammonia is stable at just below 2 PPM; PH has stabilized at 7, with nitrates and nitrites at 0.
I realize that by cleaning out the other sources of ammonia (gravel & filter) before accomplishing a complete cycle (ammonia drops and nitrates raise), the cycle is supposedly delayed. However I also realize that when Ammonia rises to super high levels 4-8 PPM and where massive water changes have little to no affect, one must get to the source of the ammonia otherwise you just ware yourself out and may lose your fish anyway. My cycle is delayed but I also have sanity and manageability back. I know the battle is not over yet with Darth Ammonia but at least I know how to out-flank Darth now in his major evil attacks and hopefully do a better job of keeping my fish casualties low until finally a cycle occurs, and it will no doubt.

navyscuba

I can tell you that so far The service is been good. I met my wife while in and have two girls and a boy on the way so is good. Well as long as you keep doing your water changes your cycle will get there. It took one of my tanks about 2 1/2 weeks or so. So be patient. Good luck.

CWO4GUNNER

Back on topic sort of, can anyone tell me if there is a water test kit out there that measures ammonia NH3 & NH4 respectively? The only problem with using ammonia detoxifies like Ammo-lock and Prime is that with my API test kit distinguish how much bad ammonia NH3 is still present or building up again so I can use more ammonia detox. Is there a test kit that can tell you this? Or am I off on my analogy?

Lucy

The API liquid tests can't distinguish between ammonia and ammonium, so I'm not sure.

Ammo lock and Prime don't do the same thing. Ammo lock does what the name implies, it locks the ammonia and can starve the bacteria.
Prime just detoxifies it but makes it available to the bacteria. Your test kit will still pick up the ammonia but it'll be safer.

CWO4GUNNER

Hmmmm? I'm not so sure because although it is called ammo-lock it claims to do the exact same thing as Prime, quote "Ammo-Lock does not remove ammonia it converts it to a non-toxic form which will be removed by your BIO FILTER". Prime quote "Prime converts ammonia to a non-toxic form that is readily removed by the Biofilter" end quote. Both products use sulfide salts mixtures according to the MSDS date sheets so its pretty much the same stuff with regard to ammonia. One thing I do know is that all these ammonia detox chemicals temporarily deplete a portion of the oxygen in the water to do there work, so its important to have your air stones full bast even at night if you use this stuff. However I do agree with you that Prime seems to be the best buy and my hat off to them for providing a muti-remedy product that only requires 2 drops per gallon. Bravo Zulu! I only wish I found Prime before ammo lock.