Butterfly

You've been working on this tank for right at 30days now. You should be seeing better results than this. I would think that not putting in all the stuff, using the extroidniary measures to lower parameters and pH might give you a clearer picture of whats going on with your tank. There aren't any fish in your profile that needs a ph of 6.8 to thrive. I know you didn't ask for advice(it's free ) but I hate to see you and your fish continue on this way.
Carol

CWO4GUNNER

I always welcome advice. My measures clumped together do appear to be over aggressive. But when broken down is logical and effective IMHO. The most controversial at least with the moderator being the use of White distilled vinegar to bring PH down. But research has shown it to be very effective and yet less toxic then PH down, not to mention much more affordable. That aside it is an unequivocal fact that PH plays a critical role and temperature a lesser role in the release of deadly toxic NH3 ammonia that is both measurable and predictable, something that is not possible to predict with ammonia treatments like prime or Ammo lock, that is to say you cannot accurately measure or predict the ammonia treatment effectiveness between dose time intervals (shot in the dark) while with the toxicity tables using PH, Temp , & total ammonia you can. While it is true that PH changes are stressful and to a greater degree deadly to fish this almost always occurs at the outer fringes of being too acidic below 6.5 or alkaline above 7.8 for most fish. My initial PH changes have occurred only within narrow margins and gradual during water changes between the widest point of 7.4 to 6.8. And while it can be argued that any change to PH is stressful I can tell you that almost without exception that with total ammonia present at 2-8 PPM the fish showed an almost remarkable change in appearance and behavior when PH was lowered between 7.0 and 6.5, yes even the mollies were playing and going through mating rituals. While one may argue back that I should not have fish during cycling anyway, that is not offering an alternative solution to my problem at hand and besides, in life without risk there is nothing gained. So whether my 29 fish die or they continue to thrive healthily as they have in the worst part of the cycle which reached 8 PPM+, I have leaned that using PH and temperature to prevent toxic NH3 from killing fish has been an effective and added contingency to the somewhat effective but unpredictable use of chemicals like Prime and Ammo lock.
But I do value and appreciate your opinion, and believe neither of our approaches are wrong, just different.

Shawnie

Ill be glad when either your cycle is complete(as im sure all the fish will be also), or I can learn how to read your posts

CWO4GUNNER

Well I suppose if my writing and spelling did nothing more for you then make you laugh, At least you got something out of it.

AlyeskaGirl

Hello, I've enjoyed reading your posts! I am sure your fish will be fine, or it sounds like they are doin great! As for me, I had a disaster and lost some fish, poor water quality, got fin-rot!!

You were talkin about PH, the ph out of my tap water comes out Acidic about 6.0, its hard to maintain it if I want it 7.0, gets expensive. My fish do fine in such a low ph range.

hkirchen

I have also enjoyed the ensuing battle of Darth Ammonia and Prince nitrite! I look forward every day to your updates! Keep them coming!

navyscuba

I do enjoy your updates too so as my wife.

CWO4GUNNER

Wow, most people have just the opposite problem with tap water having too much calcium and high PH which to me is harder to control because you cant take out the calcium only dilute it to bring down the PH. In your case with low PH it only requires the addition of these compounds. I have read that allot of people use baking soda or bicarbonate of soda or some people keep washed crushed coral "intended for freshwater" instead of gravel which keeps your PH in the middle. Whatever you decide make sure you research a few alternatives yourself on the internet from published articles and know authorities so you can make an informed and knowledgeable decision rather then relying only on the advice of one or two novice like myself.
Oh and thanks for your kind comments

CWO4GUNNER

Thanks, I figure it adds a little drama to the effort, as a kid I was always the one day dreaming in class. My kids now adults really benefited from our fictional adventures which I applied to almost everything we did. Of course I thought them the difference between reality and fun.

CWO4GUNNER

You have been a true shipmate and non-scallywag. We must mind ourselves now, a governor might be listening..

navyscuba

Thanks.

CWO4GUNNER

Tuesday week 6 new cycling 60g tank with 29 fish accounted for, of which one was lost in battle as follows.
Good afternoon Wogs all is finally quite after a fierce and bloody battle that lasted through the day and cost me seaman Mickey Mouse Platy his life. It all started last night on what seemed like an eerie calm for the Black Cycle Sea when suddenly within the space of one hour just before midnight bells a gloomy fog rolled aboard ship, so thick crewmen could hardly see there flukes. Having been briefed by other skippers in port of this blooming fog that carries both good and bad bacteria, the recommendation was to stop the fog bloom anyway as its been known to suffocate whole ship crews.

Sounding the alarm we manned the one weapon I hate to use as it only agitates the enemy but the deadly fog had to be abated so we lit off the ships UV Death Ray and commenced to scourer the ship from stem to stern. By first light the following day the bloom fog had abated some and was steadily clearing. But shiver me timbers as light broke upon the decks we beheld that we were no longer alone on the ship for by the cover of this evil fog the Borg Drones had boarded the ship and hid in surprise wait till day brake. 40 PPM strong they were with broad smiles and weapons drawn surrounding the main deck they leaped upon us, and if this wasn’t bad enough 4 PPM of Darth Ammonia’s assassins and 2 PPM of Prince Nitrites henchmen jumped out from the woodwork laughing as well. As the crew fought valiantly I managed to brake away with seaman Mickey Mouse and relight the ships shields (75ml distilled vinegar) which immediately vanquished Darth ammonia causing him to leap overboard in retreat. Unfortunately Seaman Mickey Mouse was targeted and he was sent reeling back down the main deck defenseless where the evil Borg worked him over, and it was clear to see that the rest the crew would also succumb if drastic action was not taken!

I knew there was only one thing left to do so I ran fast below decks to the bilges and opened the Paython valve to flood the ship 75% with fresh water in order to drown the enemy from the decks. But I also knew that such a drastic flood of water with chlorine and so much neutralizer would surly take some crewmen with these devils.

1100 all seems quite about the decks and a quick inspection shows the Borg and Prince Nitrite have been washed overboard by the fresh water flood (Amm-1PPM; Ntri-1PPM; Ntra-20PPM; PH-6.8). But the crew was hurt staggering and gasping hard for lack of oxygen, mouth agape puffing like old goldfish the crew was fast succumbing, and poor seamen Mickey Mouse face down wedged between the ships boiler and airlines. But there was no time for a sea burial now!, the rest of the crews lives hung in the balance, the large amount of water change and neutralizers had depleted most of the oxygen and there was the telltale smell of sulfur that confirmed it.

Without hesitation I began to pull up the 3 airlines one at a time removing the air stones which make large bubbles and replaced them with the ceramic smoke stones I had stored below decks. One by one the ceramic stones belched what looked like chimney smoke of tiny bubbles until the ship became awash with what looked like white sand fog debris flowing everywhere. But in fact they were tiny micro bubbles so small they looked like smoke filling the ship as the air pumps worked wide open. Within about the course of 3 minutes the crew began to recover and their labored breathing stopped. This has been surly the worst battle yet and the aftermath of cleaning and securing equipment carried this battles activities until 1500 hours. We paid our respects to semen Mickey Mouse who carcass was jettisoned into the swirling Black Cycle Sea where Darth Ammonia and his evil span reside.
1600 hours, 28 crew members badly shaken but doing well enough, all are accounted for.

Well fellow Wogs looks like the curse from our naysayer’s almost came true today. But I wont dwell on it because tomorrow another day with its own set of problems that God willing we will also overcome.

hkirchen

Farewell crewman Mickey Mouse. You will be missed but not forgotten!

navyscuba

A 21 Gun salute for our shipmate. No time for regret what we could or not do. Time to fight and lay down the law. Put your weapons together and raise your cups for Seaman Mickey and fight fight fight. Turn on your pull out your ricky and be ready because soon there will be a counter attack and all we have is OLD Glory and GOD bless her and our troops that fight for her. Man your battle station and assume MOPP 2 and prepare to fight.

CWO4GUNNER

Greetings men and women and thank you!

FYI the crew is bright eyed breathing normally and looking for chow as if nothing at all had occurred. Looking back over the previous day's battle preparations I believe what may have erupted today's unprecedented serge of the Borg Nitrates and the bloom in what seemed like the space of just two hours may have been my recruitment of those mercenaries units called Seachem Stability seals. I recruited them to help vanquish Darth ammonia & Prince Nitrite and I do believe they may have done too good of a job too quickly, causing the Borg Nitrates to double creating the bloom. Odd still is how quickly it was all abated by the water change which incidentally I must say I agree with some published opinions that say unless its an absolute emergency water changes in one action should not exceed 50% because of high stress regardless if the temperature is right. When and if (God willing) I should get the large aquarium I dream of, I think I will have to have a holding tank perhaps outside just to mix the water and let it stabilize and breath for 24Hrs before using it. Id also like to hook up pluming so water can be siphoned off to the outside garden sprinkler system as this fish water really makes the plans grow and I hate using the python to send it down the drain, although I love using it to fill up. Anyway just thought I would share what I think may have cased the spike bloom. I have decided that there must be enough good bacteria in the filter and ornaments so as not to disturb the cycle by leaving my UV Sterilizer running 24/7 to control free floating bacteria blooming which I have heard needs to be kept under control regardless if good or bad bacteria. Any comments or concerns or rebukes are always welcome. (Coffee)

CWO4GUNNER

Morning Wogs, hope your coffee this mooring is as good as mine. This morning the 28 crewmembers was awake and looking for breakfast so after water readings I opened the chow line and fed them 1 tethered algae wafer, ½ square freeze dried worm block, and two light sprinkles of flake. They ravenously ate up everything and I worry the bottom dwellers don’t even get a chance at any food not even the wafer. Last night though I do place a 1 inch thin slice of zucchini that every morning is eaten up by the bottom dwellers then removed. They wont touch spinach though. Anyway the UV sterilizer has cleared up the water cloudiness and although readings are still toxic requiring water treatments, things are looking better.
Ammonia 1 PPM lowest consistent reading since 16 days or so
nitrate 40 PPM high but today’s water change should return it to 20 PPM
Nitrite holding at 1 PPM. Only thing I have to fight this is Prime. Oh and I did add only 1 tablespoon of Morton "plain salt with nothing added" $1.45 for 4 Lbs, way cheaper then aqua salt yet better. Supposedly helps ease respiration effects of Nitrite and allot of shops use it.
PH 6.8 and keeping it there as a precaution against NH3

Well that’s it fellow Wogs, no heroic stories to tell today thank the Lord. But I have a feeling Prince Nitrite may have some surprises in store yet. Until then may your aquariums bring beauty and serenity, without drama and disaster.

navyscuba

aye, aye sir.

NUMB3RS

Sorry that your pleco died...

CWO4GUNNER

Yeah that was a couple weeks ago. I think I had the aerators too low one night when the tank was treated with detox and the oxygen level got too low for him down on the bottom. Now I use micro bubble aerators and have 3 blasting all day and then at night I just one in the far corner blasting which leaves the opposite side calm and the calm side is where they sleep.

CWO4GUNNER

Greetings all Wogs.
Based on this mornings relatively good cycle numbers our strategy this after noon was to concentrate Navel gun fire on the Borg Nitrates with 30% water charges and avoid yesterday's larger 75% water charge and related crew casualties. Although today's attack yielded some progress against Darth Ammonia, less then expected results were achieved against the Borg Nitrates forces which remain at 40+ PPM, redder then fish spleen on the battlefield. Upon this discovery additional chemical weapons were launched to soften the enemy which included Prime, stress coat, and Nitraban. At the moment there are no plans to mount a new attack until possibly late this evening if circumstances on the ground deteriorate.
Top Secret! Controversial countermeasures may include the passive washing out of Borg Nitrate Headquarters with aqua-wa-wa in order to vanquish the enemy's resources and reserves, similar to the historic siege on Darth Ammonia's HQ 3 weeks ago. Last water reading as follows:
Ammo .50
Nitrate 40 PPM
Nitrite 2 PPM
PH 6.8
That is all…

CWO4GUNNER

Tuesday week 6 new cycling 60g tank with 28 fish accounted for no casualties, all fish lively and fed. Wogs Ill have to make this report brief as I got me patriarch sister coming aboard to visit and getting the shipshape just in a nick of time. A 50% water cannon fire (57%Softener+RO) laced with chem weapons (Prime/Nitraban/WDV), sand vac, and cleaning of the filter bilges (filthy nasty) with aqua water so as not to kill too much good bacteria. Our attack finally vanquished Darth ammonia now a yellow bellied coward with zero pulse. Unbelievably though Prince Nitrite at 5 but I hear its all part of his death throws when loosing the battle. Although the Borg Nitrate are still 40 PPM strong we have struck an armistice and agreed that if his forces exceed 50 PPM I will have no choice but to retaliate with a Nitrate filter.
Ok got to get me and the crew into our dress blues for visitors and place the ribbons on the life lines and hoist all colors. So until later my Wog friends remember NEVER give up against evil and in the words of our Christian forefather Ben Franklin said "Those that would exchange freedom for safety, deserve neither freedom nor safety"

cerianthus

Gunner,
Love the way you are logging all the events and glad you've done whatever it took to keep your mates alive.

My question is why so many water conditioners? They pretty much performs similar/same duties but made by different Co. Been out myself for few yrs and it seems lots of new products. Upon reviwing these product, Prime seems be the ideal choice, IMO. I never bothered with such products then and still not using since last summer when I returned to S/W. I am a firm believer of Having Reserve (aged Water) ready all the time.

It seems half the battle is almost over. As far as nitrite is concerned, and only in Non-live plant tank, sould add Aq Salt as instructed on the box. This will help you at least detoxify some free nitrite ion as sodium will bind with nitrite ion and end product will be removed via water changes. Just remember to replenish what you took out with water changes.

As far as nitrate, it is not as toxic as NH3, NO2 thus dont go overboard trying to bring it down to zero. Once tank stablizes, figure out how fast NO3 increases per week then you can determine how mush and how often partial water change (pwc) has to be performed to keep it low.

I've used vinegar to lower the pH on reserve water which was always prepare and running with aeration/circulation whenever i wanted to lower pH to initiate/stimulate breeding of certain fish.

I grew up using Supreme Aquaking & Superking where I modified the use by sticking bogplants in the hang-on-back(HOB) fiter boxes. Although did not see much drop in nitrate (limit to how may box can be hung) but I am sure it did. Itwas pretty to have pants grow/flower behind the tank with suspended lighting (Homemade).

Hope all goes well for you & your mates!!

hkirchen

It's good to hear that your cycle is almost over! Although I will be sad when this thread is over. It has been most entertaining, and I hope you continue to update us in your endeavors after the war is won over Darth!

CWO4GUNNER

Greetings all wogers and wogettes. As you know I have been incommunicado as me sister matriarch came to pay visit to me and the crew, who has now departed back to the land of Disney. In my last ships log entry I mentioned that the tank was almost cycled with Darth Ammonia a cowardly yellow making 0 PPM threats. Tis true since then we have been maintaining that number for the past 4 days, with Prince Nitrite down to 1 PPM and the Borg Nitrites unwavering at 40 PPM in accordance with our armistice. Albiet we have one or two more skirmishes with the enemy before the water readings are pristine. I believe the crew and I have finally mastered the Black Cycle Sea and have even added two members to the crew list, SA (seamen apprentice) Afro Frog and SA Siam Fighter, bringing our crew complement back up to 30.
My short but intense experience has learned me some valuable information (IMHO) I would like to share. Therefore not withstanding my critics, I offer the following lessons learned:

(1) Cycling method. Although there are a few methods to cycle a tank I prefer cycling a tank with fish, only perhaps 1 fish per 20 gallons and that of a hardy variety. Do not put yourself through what I went through trying what is almost impossible trying to navigate a 60 gallon vessel with 30 green crewmembers in the hostile waters of the Black Cycle Sea. Although exciting it is a method I will never use again. The benefit of cycling with just 1 hardy fish per 20 gallons is you get the experience of how to fend off Darth Ammonia and his spawn with all the weapons at hand gaining valuable fighting skills for the future.
While a fishless cycle while requiring almost no effort also offers no lessons learned, making you unprepared and unskilled in recognizing and fighting off the enemies evil hordes the first time they climb aboard with a full crew complement that has no experienced hands. Learning to protect a few hardy fish through a cycle will make earn you the rank of Captain Aquarius.
(2) Changing dirty water (water changes). I have learned that although water changes are a key tool in the fight against evil hordes of ammonia, nitrite and nitrates, it has little effect against high PPM numbers if the source is a dirty filter which can and must be changed simultaneously provided old aquarium water is used (no new chlorinated water) and the old bio sponge and carbon is retained while new filter media is used to replace old. This IMHO makes a huge difference in the progress toward dropping otherwise stubborn high enemy PPM numbers. While negligibly affecting good bacteria numbers which cover the entire aquarium as well.

(3) Carbon. I have learned that low ash Carbon, preferably made from coconut shell is a valuable tool in polishing water to crystal clarity, controlling odor, and most importantly providing unrivaled surface area to harbor good bacteria and there food source bio waste. 1 cup of carbon provides many times the surface area of your aquarium in providing a home for good bacteria, believe it or not.

(4) PH. I have researched and confirmed to my own satisfaction that a PH level between 6.5 to 7 is extremely valuable in shielding a new or established tank against ongoing or surprise ammonia attacks against deadly NH3 ammonia that are naturally contained when standard test readings are as high as 8 PPM. Maintaining a PH range between 6.5 to 7 respectively is not only doable and livable for most fish species but is an invaluable missile defense system against the most common killer of all fish, Darth Ammonia.

(5) Use of chemicals. In an open natural environment such as in a lake toxic levels of fish waste are easily controlled by those forces that the Creator has set forth by design, the explanation of which are beyond the scope of this entire forum. But I can tell you that in a closed environment such as in our teeny tiny aquariums (by comparison) fish waste has nowhere to go except into a filter where mechanical and biological processes cannot compare to creation. It is therefore reasonable and necessary to use chemicals and or medicines to offset the hazards we create in an artificial environment in order to have ornamental fish, plain and simple. Using those chemicals and medicines on the word of a few individuals without personally understanding there cure, cause and effect is a big mistake.

(6) Study to show thyself approve. Speaking for myself I have learned that there is as much enjoyment and satisfaction learning about how a hobby works then just going through the motions on the advice of others. Like my old Gunner on the USS Midway used to say “ before asking someone for the answer, try cracking a book and providing a possible solution.”

(7) I found that a UV sterilizer in combination with having carbon in your filter really provides the knock out punch on water cloudiness whether caused by minerals or bacteria bloom. I recommend the affordable "Green Killing Machine" with its own built in water pump as the answer to bio and algae bloom problems.

Anyway all is well aboard and the crew are happy, hungry and playful, despite the naysayer’s you can accomplish just about anything if you put your mind to it.

CWO4GUNNER

Thursday week 7 new 60g tank with 30 fish all accounted for.

Well my dear Wogs that day has finally arrived that IMHO we have successfully navigated the Black Cycle Sea and reached the sailors port of Cycled Bay where the natives are friendly. The Bamboo and Hedera Ivy we planted in the hang filter has really taken off with the roots bare in the water clinging and collecting some black substance from the water. For the first time the Borg Nitrates actually came down from 40 to 20 PPM without a water change intervention. If these low light indoor plants continue to thrive and grow filling the hang filter with roots, I plan to mount another cheap hang filter and not even use the filter inserts just plant more roots in the water box. I hope to archive an actual real complete cycle in which Nitrates are consumed my huge growing vines of Hedera Ivy on the walls with roots filling the hand filters and see how long water changes can be put off provided it works and all the water numbers reach 0 PPM.

In the mean time Nitrites have peaked and are almost zero now, my numbers as follows:

Ammo 0 PPM consistently this whole week
Nitrites 1 PPM falling, still using 20 mil of Prime daily to guard against toxicity
Nitrates 20 PPM Found out that it was Nitraband that was depleting Oxygen in doses higher then 10 mil in a 10 minute period. Plan to continue 75% weekly water changes until plant roots bring Nitrates down to 10 PPM will do 25% weekly water changes, if 0 PPM will do quarterly water changes of 50%. We will see how it goes but I envision this fast growing low light Hedera Ivy to climb the walls on nailed strings until they reach the windows. The bigger the plants the more nutrients it should pull out of the water, unlike all the wasted space taken inside an aquarium for aqua plants, with diseases, maintenance, and the floating decay aqua plants can cause.
PH being maintained at 6.8 which requires between 75 and 150 mil of distilled whit vinegar (WDV) diluted in 2 gallons of water or 1 mil per gallon in 30 minute intervals until PH is achieved after a water change. At no time did the use of WDV affect or bother the fish in any way.
OK until next time my woggy friends, may your aquariums bring you tranquility, relaxation and an appreciation for the Creators gifts.

CWO4GUNNER

Ships Log USS Aquarius 60g; 2124 hours; Sunday week 7; location Cycle Bay; All 30 crewman present and accounted for.
Greeting all Wogs, Its been pretty lazy here in Cycle Bay as the crew is fattening up on the local hospitality along with romancing. Both of the Platinum Molly brothers have been non-stop courting the Black Molly sisters which are rounder then ripe pears. The Striped Tiger Barb gang have been busy eatin all the other crews meal portions when un attended, one particularly 3” fat Striper can eat so much at one sitting he once ate an entire frozen blood worm block in 5 rings of the ships bell, So I had to ration out his food. There has been no sign of Darth Ammonia on the serf or the board walk. Prince Nitrite has been seen pale and coughing in the alleys hanging on by .25 PPM. I hear the Borg Nitrates with only a gang of 10 PPM are behaving themselves outside of port. Albeit with no threats we still gave the ship a good 50% wash down today fore & Aft using 25ga softener water and 5ga RO. I decided not to partition off new quarters for the crewman Frog and Blue Siam Fighter, instead I allowed Siam to bring his wife aboard Lady Green Fighter which make 31 crewmembers now, it seemed to make the Siam less punchy and more interested in domestic activities. First mate Shark Columbo seems to be eating again as I upped the salt content to 1.5 tablespoon per 50 ga with no ill affects on the Cory’s or Pleco as both are filterin and sucking their way to algae heaven 24/7.
There is no telling when I will get command of my new flag ship aquarium The USS America as treasures for her keel haven’t yet been plundered LOL. 300ga displacement she will be with new engines never before tried (4000 GPH pool pump filter). She will be rigged with a special large displacement intake for low suction and feedback return valve to reduce and adjust return pressure and fully plumed for both water changes and drainage to yard irrigation pipes. Ah but its just a dream for now even though the crew is already pestering me about which one of them ill pick for the shake down cruise to take the new ship through the Perilous Black Cycle Sea to challenge the dark hordes of death.
Well that’s it my fishy faced friends, until there is more scuttlebutt to chew remember, “He that neglects his ship will have floaters outside his porthole for all to see, but he that keeps a squared away ship will put smiles on the faces of visitors and a frown on pestilence’s face.”