navyscuba

I see you got the Navy humor. Haha.

CWO4GUNNER

Ah yes the days I recall as a Polliwog, but I think back then a few on King Neptune's court also wore them LOL, uh-hem! Anyway where was I oh yes this afternoon's water numbers for week 5 Wednesday new un-cycled 60g tank with 26 fish.

After this morning 10% RO water change and addition of Prime for the new water I was hoping for better numbers but here they are:
ammonia 3 PPM, between 2&4 only slightly down this time
pH 7.2 up from 6.8 perhaps due to new carbon, darn cheap sooty brand!
nitrite .50 holding steady at least
nitrate 5.0 holding.

I was concerned over the higher PH of 7.2 up from 6.8 because according to the NH3 Ammonia tables this places me back in the marine of error danger zone of .03 PPM NH3 ammonia. So I had to take immediate action and fired off an acid bomb of 25 ml or 2 tablespoons of white distilled vinegar in a 8 ounce glass of aqua water and I believe I could faintly hear Darth Ammonia yell "I'm melting!" A complete retest shows all numbers unchanged except the PH level back down to green 6.8 bringing my HN3 toxic level back well within the safe zone of .010 PPM. But I also think I could Darth Ammonia whisper from the swirling depths of my aquarium "next time Gunner, next time Boo-ha-haha-haha!

CWO4GUNNER

Hello all. I thought I would share with you that I received my new Seachem NH3 ammonia test kit I ordered. As you can imagine I was pretty excited to compare the results to the NH3 toxicity tables I have been using. Well I did 2 repeat test and the results were completely inconclusive. Not only were they wrong against the NH3 toxicity tables but they were completely off from the API master test kit, way way off. The Seachem tested total ammonia 2 PPM while the API was at 4 PPM, while at the same time Seachem tested free NH3 ammonia at 1.0 PPM twice, which is not possible because with a 2 PPM reading of total ammonia, NH3 with a water temperature of 74 and PH of 6.8 has to come in at .006 PPM unless physics and the mathematics as we know it have changed. Seachem's test reading of NH3 at 1.0 is 13 bases points too high according to the NH3 toxicity tables or 7 basis points past the lethal toxic level and my fish should have died within a few minutes, but they look fine this evening and still hungry for an hour after the test, not possible. Ironically Seachem also makes Prime Hmmmm?
Well anyway just wanted to share with you that IMHO this was not money well spent and I will go back to using API total ammonia and the toxicity tables which have worked for me and my fish.

docjr03

Have you considered bigger water changes yet?

CWO4GUNNER

Yes I have apparently reached that point. Uneasy last night before going to bed with 4 PPM (API test) I placed another half dose of Prime and ammon-lock. I found out that these ammonia converters use a chemical to assist in dropping PH as well.
Report 0800 this morning after a long night no casualties fish (26) are lively and very hungry, I feed them sparingly. Shocking water test (API) readings are as follows:
Ammonia 8 PPM I guess I have to go past 13% water changes and the RO at 20 cents a gallon is not cheap about $8 a week so far. High Ammonia PPM due to what I dont know as the aquarium, sand, and filters are all clean.

PH a shocking 6.5 and may be crashing do to loss of buffer ability but I believe its due to the added Ammo lock and Prime last night.

Nitrite is almost 1.0 PPM now, eek! and Nitrate is barley moving toward orage about 7.5 PPM.

Whats amazing is my fish are swimming around happily, even the molly's (7) which have normally require 7.0 and above PH, all my other fish can tolerate 6.0 PH If the Toxicity tables have any proof this must be it because with a PH of 6.5, water temp of 74 and total ammonia of 8 PPM it put me in the safe zone of .013 PPM NH3 ammonia but this is only 2 bases points from caution and 4 basis points from deadly. Any other suggestions because I feel like Darth ammonia has me cornered. These water changes are killing me! If I do a major city water change my PH will rise and so will my toxicity, if I use RO (only 5 gallons left, drive to buy) my PH will drop too low maybe. I suppose a 50% water change is in order, what say ye all? Hurry! speak now before I act!

CWO4GUNNER

Followup! Emergence action taken 1030.
After my last post another PH reading of 6.3 confirmed my PH was dropping fast and I had to act without further dropping or drastically raising my PH due to an 8 PPM ammonia reading (API). Since our garden hose city water is very hard with allot of calcium carbonate phosphate about 7.8, I decided to take a chance and use inside house water which is water softer water with some sodium but with much less calcium. And since a change was needed fast I decided to do just a 13% water change or 8 gallons of 60 using 25% RO and 75% water softener with 3 drops per gallon Prime. during this time all the fish were oblivious and indifferent to the hurried water change ravenously fighting over an algae wafer. Followup water testing 10 minutes later was as follows:
Water temp 74
Ammonia 3 PPM Happy Joy!
Nitrate almost up to 10 PPM, Oh my! is this good news?
Nitrite back down to .25 Happy Joy!
PH too far back up to 7.2, so I immediately followed up with 2 tablespoons distilled white vinegar and it back down to an honest 6.8, Heuw!
As of now according to the Toxicity tables this places me at an NH3 ammonia level of .010, six points away from the danger zone.
OK time for java and a breakfast (coffee)!

gremlin

quick question - since you know your city water has high ph, and you know adding vinegar brings it down, what if you did your water changes with vinegar treated city water? You could put the vinegar and prime/ammo lock in the water before adding it to your tank. That way you wouldn't have to keep buying the more expensive water and could do larger water changes. Would that work?

docjr03

I liked the effects of the big water changes on my tank. It allowed me to do thorough gravel vacuums which ultimately kept my filter cleaner. In fact, I took the carbon out and my water is crystal clear. I did use Prime water conditioner as well. Like your tank, my pH began to fall alarmingly fast (to the point where I doubted my test results), but since the fish showed no ill effects (surprisingly), I stayed the course (keeping a sharp eye on the looming squall on the horizon I was so sure was going to create sudden chaos). I did notice that the drop in pH coincided with the appearance of Nitrites. Now that my tank has been cycled for a few days (start to finish < 4weeks), the pH has climbed back to normal on it's own. Daily water changes do suck after awhile, but what else does a retired Coastie have to do... play golf?

CWO4GUNNER

Well you see as a beginner or with 35 year old knowledge I started out wrong with a bunch of fish without doing my 1st cycling first which I know now I will absolutely have to do if I ever expect to go 265 gal. I boxed myself into a corner having to use RO water to keep the PH down to save the 26 fish from high ammonia NH3 PPMs as PH is a key factor with high ammonia. Cycling first would have spared all that and I could have used city water right from the beginning and maybe just a tad PH down or vinegar for a 7.4 PH which is great if your already past your first cycle which is a 80% killer IMO. Good news is my 30 minute Nitrate sample just turned orange 10 PPM, hopefully my next test will show total ammonia cumming down. I don't want to be over optimistic but I feel light at the end of this black hole I have been in LOL.
The inside house soft water diden't hurt the fish none and so I may make this an alternative to outside hard water. Once my ammonia PPMs start coming down I will drastically lower the use of RO to a consistent 10-20% mixture depending on the PH.

I still have huge obstacles ahead I have been working out in my head like how to get rid of the excess nitrates which will build without so many water changes. I plan to buy some house plants today and place there naked washed roots in the aquarium with the stocks ties off to the wall. I figure if they can grow out of a mason jar filled with water and Miracle Grow, they can grow out of the back of an aquarium converting nitrate, nitrites and ammonia to plant growth without the problems of CO2 in the water, leaf rot, and algae. Anyway its worth a try.

Once this cycle is finished I have to find a way to lower my water changes for summer because the temperatures out side get up between 110-120 degrees and the city water here sits in metal gravity tanks making the water out of the cold site tap 90-105 degrees. so far all I can think of is filling the tub the night before, not exactly a convenience. Either way with the thermostat in summer set between 78 low and 80 high I will probubly have to invest in a chiller $$.

But to answer your question about using a bunch of distilled white vinegar on hard water is not as good as getting or mixing RO. Too much PH down or white vinegar can deplete the buffers in the water like what happened to me this morning and your PH can suddenly plummet to below 6 PH and kill your fish faster them ammonia. So you should never use white distilled vinegar without understanding your waters normal PH and no more then 1 tablespoon diluted for each 30 gallons at a time with 30 minutes between each dose checking PH as you go.

I will take plant pics when and if I do the house plant project.

docjr03

Sir, if you tie house plants to the side of your tank, you have GOT to post a picture of that!

gremlin

Pothos does well growing in water only and is quite adaptable to different light conditions.

Butterfly

I have begonia growing in my filter
carol

navyscuba

I use most of the time soft water for my water changes. My RO water on the kitchen sink got better readings but the tank is about 5 gal. So I just use it to refill my tanks when I my waster level goes down due to evaporation. I also do between 25% and 40% water changes. My fish are always happy and hungry and my mollies breeding like crazy. hehe get a room.... hahaha Good luck shipmate...hahaha

CWO4GUNNER

I am going to start small with bamboo as I hear it grows fast in water. So just as an experiment I plated one in the space behind my hang filter media with some large pebbles to give the roots something to anchor to. I was envisioning converting a 4 foot plastic flower box to hang on the back of an aquarium with the pump impeller at one end and the out flow at the other. Would just have to cut and RTV an existing hang filter pump and components and make one long custom filter that can hold an entire row pf plants plus filter media if one wanted. Something that grows fast to pull the nitrates out of the water and also climbs the wall so it can spread out really big without interfering with aquarium operations. If this works I will probubly change to a vine type plant if I create a aquarium planter box filter (APB) LOL. Its cool that you guys are already trying it, lets see your pics.


Looks like its going to be another long night with 4 PPM ammonia and 6.8 PH, funny how the ammonia always rises in the evening. Today I did a 20% water change in total and tomorrow I have to go buy more RO about 40 gallons in 5 gallon jugs. But I am determined to stick with only 20% RO and 80% water softener as it seem to affect my PH much less only requiring 25 ml of white vinegar for each 20% water change. Still waiting for nitrates to get up and over 10 PPM but more importantly ammonia to turn yellow..

CWO4GUNNER

Followup! Friday week 5 new cycling 60 tank with 26 fish.
Well I got good news my fellow polliwogs (beginners). I found a new mass weapon of destruction to use against the infamous Darth Ammonia and his wretched cohorts Price Nitrite. Some call it the Python and in the Navy we called it the water eductor used for de-watering a flooded ship or aquarium faster then it takes to change a set of foul skivvies (sailors undergarments). Anyway the contraption makes large water changes 1/10th the effort of using a bucket and swab and able to drown out the evil Darth's PPM strait away.
cautious about this new water softener I have been using instead of RO I did only a 30% water change in no time but because this new water still has some hardness compared to RO's zero hardness I had to lower the PH so that while still cycling Darth Ammonia's evil clone "NH3 Dr Hide" will be much less likely to sneak aboard at night and butcher me 26 crew members while asleep. Added 60 drops of Prime & 15 ml of Ammolock (to hedge my bets) and 6 tablespoons of distilled white vinegar (against Dr Hide) at a rate of 2 tablespoons diluted gallon every 20 minutes rechecking PH in between. Here are the latest water numbers and hoping soon to see land and take harbor from the black cycling sea. Post water change API test results 1pm:
Fish condition, appearance healthy and very active.
Water temp 74
Ammonia 3 PPM, down from 8 earlier 0800
Nitrate almost up to 10 PPM and holding.
Nitrite at 1.0 PPM up from .50 earlier 0800
PH too far back up to 7.2, so I immediately followed up with 6 tablespoons distilled white vinegar and it back down to an honest 6.8.
As of now according to the Toxicity tables this places me at an NH3 ammonia level of .010, six points away from the danger zone. Tomorrow with this new soften water, ill do a 50% water change.
So until next time fellow Polliwogs remember, better a change of waters toward a clear and calmer sea then a foul smelling boat full of putrid floating flounders.

CWO4GUNNER

Followup on sort of some bad news. The water softener water I used today for my 30% water change is still too hard and doesn't really put enough of a dent in our 190 PPM calcium carbonate water which the zeolite in the softener cuts down to about half only. That right I said zeolite the same stuff they sell for aquariums to remove ammonia, turns out it exchanges sodium ions for minerals out of the water much-much better then ammonia and as a result probubly doesn't work so well to remove ammonia in RO water since there are no minerals in RO to attach the ammonia to the zeolite. Anyway looks like I will have to use at least 20% RO water just to have normal and workable PH with some affordability. I notice my fish are not as playful in the water softener water, even less so then in regular hard water probubly because the sodium ions are not as comfortable. So starting tomorrow I will be isolating the water softener with the isolation valve before doing my next water change and adding 5 gallons of RO for every 25 gallons of hard water. In the mean time I'm praying that my fish will make it through tomorrow and that the Prime and ammolock really work because with 4 PPM of ammonia and 7.2 PH I am definitely next to the toxicity table kill zone and if it spikes to 8 PPM like this morning, I might have a bunch of dead fish which will show that the relationship between ammonia and PH cannot be overemphasized. In cases of very high ammonia the valid concern over PH changes to fish stress is like being worried about the bowie knife a suicide bomber is carrying... :;, Of course being a military man I cant let that happen and will probubly do what I must tonight to get the PH back down to 6.8 until this death cycle is over.

navyscuba

This is epidemic. Two days ago my fish on my 50 gal tank started dropping like flies. All the levels are fine so I started feeding them anti-bacterial food. My casualties so far two Dwarf Gouramies, Two platys, and two Creamcicle Lyretail Mollies. They all look happy and begging for food and them every morning there's on attached to the intake pipe of the filter. Well water changes and the food.

CWO4GUNNER

Saturday week 5 new cycling 60g tank with 26 fish.
Good morning Wogs. It was tough going before lights out last night trying to get PH to stabilize at 6.8 in support of the NH3 toxicity tables but a small water change of 4 gallons RO, an additional 30 drops of Prime against rising nitrite, and 50ml distilled vinegar finally did it. That RO although overkill for a whole tank fill is powerful medicine even in small percentages of only 5% when combating hard water. I also haven't mentioned that I leave one far corner airstone blowing full blast every night to insure oxygen levels stay high for the fish and the good cycle bacteria. Anyway I bedded down the crew at 2300 hours and this following morning 0630 all 26 crew members were bright eyed swimming against the glass waiting for chow. Total water change yesterday was 34 gallons. As previously mentioned I plan to do a 30% water change this afternoon composed of 25g un-softened tap water and 5g RO, which should give me the PH control I'm need. This morning's water numbers are as follows:
Water temp 74
Ammonia 3 PPM, first time holding through the night without a spike up
Nitrite .50 PPM down from 1 PPM unusual.
Nitrate a solid 10 PPM moving toward 20 PPM
PH holding at 6.8 hoping a 10% mix of RO in the waterchange will spare me yesterdays battle to keep it low.
As of now according to the NH3 Toxicity tables the ship is at an NH3 ammonia level of .010, six points out of harms way.
Well that's all for now me Buccaneer's, may your waters cycle like an AJ-commode and may your crews muster against the glass at your approach.

navyscuba

So anyone UA or casualties? I had a casualty. today

CWO4GUNNER

Sorry to hear about your casualty shipmate, fetching them out and sending them on there way is never a pleasant task.

To answer your question I had no casualties since I lost my Pelco almost 2 weeks ago I think. In fact they all have a good appetite. Here are some picks of them this morning in a scrimmage over an algae wafer inside a piece of produce netting tethered to a stone so wafer doesn't get trapped under an ornament and rot.

CWO4GUNNER

I missed your post here shipmate. Lucy wont let me give advice so all I can tell you is our town also uses well tater that is treated and after the first week of 100% of that in my tank I started getting a white slime growing on the glass real fast in a streak pattern sort of like crystals but slimy. Not wanting to have it become a huge problem as I have read on the internet, I rush out and bought a 24W sterilizer called the killing machine. In just 48 hours it really put the brakes on the slime and my water became Cristal clear. But I unplugged it because it was also interfering with the cycle. But cycle or not Its ready to turn back on at the first sign of bad bacteria. As we speak I have what I believe algae started to speckle the glass in tiny dots. I am reluctant to turn on the sterilizer while cycling, but will if necessary. To me the fish are the main priority whatever the threat, and the risk taken to combat those threats have to be taken but managed just like in a battle IMHO.

Lucy

I'm sorry, I must have missed the thread where I said you can't give advice.
IMO what you're doing with your PH and most of what you're adding is very stressful to your fish.
It just seems you're making this all very hard on yourself.
I gave my advice to you in the beginning of this thread as did others.
Of course, it's your tank and your choice.
Not every one agrees with everyone's advice here on the forum. Otherwise, it would be very boring and no one would learn new things.

CWO4GUNNER

Yes ma'am.

CWO4GUNNER

Saturday week 5 new cycling 60g tank with 26 fish.
Evening report. Things seemed a bit brighter today before today's water change as ammonia PPM remained unchanged at 3 PPM since last night allowing me to wait on the water change until this afternoon. Before the water change I discovered that the reason yesterdays "water softener" water had more sodium then expected was because I had recharged the machine just before yesterdays water change. 24 Hours later the softener is much more stable and all minerals are down especially sodium. So this afternoon I did 25 gallons of softener and 5 gallons of RO and this time the dosage of distilled vinegar was just a fraction of what was required yesterday to maintain PH at 6.8 the magic number against toxic NH3 ammonia. In addition a combination of Prime & Ammolock was added for 60g. API water test was as follows:
Water temp 74
Ammonia 2 PPM, first time this low since two weeks
Nitrite 1 PPM back up.
Nitrate a solid 10 PPM moving even closer toward 20 PPM
PH holding at 6.8
Ammonia NH3 toxicity table .006, four points lower then this morning and 10 points away from danger zone, Yeah-Baby-Yeah! .

navyscuba

The troops are holding the line of fire and keep advancing on the pursue of the enemy. hahaha.

CWO4GUNNER

Roger that shipmate and thanks. Don't want to get too confident though, the enemy Darth hasn't given up his evil claim on the black cycle sea yet and his henchman Prince Nitrite is obviously planning a counter attack at any moment. all this and the Commodore's reprimand has taken its toll on me and the crew. But in spite of all that, crew moral is good and I can tell by the look in there beady eyes, their willing to this battle through.

CWO4GUNNER

Sunday week 5 new cycling 60g tank with ?? fish.
Before church report. There are a couple things need clearing up that I did last night. 1st I have been off in my fish count report on paper even though I have always known exactly how many fish I have by sigh, because of the way I group my Platy's & Molly's I would miss count. So I'm grouping them here on paper just once by general group in bold, oh and I haven't bought any new fish since my Pleco died 2 weeks ago. Molly Types 7 (2-Back; 2-Redwag; 2-Silversail; 1-mickymouse), Silver Dollars-2, Barbs-10 (Tiger Barb-5, Red Tiger Barb-5), Tetra Minor-5, Bottom Dwellers-5 (Albino Cory-2, Columbian Shark-1, Plecos-1, Apple snail-1), grand total of 29 officially with no casualties or UA. I might add that they are hungry and lively. 2nd I confess that with my sister coming to visit next week I wanted my aquarium Cristal clear and decided to replace the 2-cups of Carbon I had tried floating but did not work so well IMO. In addition even though I did not molest the canister filter media in any way, Incidentally I did pour aquarium water into the open filter housing from a standing position which works great I discovered at back flush the large debris out of the canister without moving or replacing a thing. API water test 0700 as follows:
Water temp 74
Ammonia 4 PPM, a temp setback for touching but not changing the filter killing a few million out of billions bacteria.
Nitrite 1 PPM.
Nitrate almost 20 PPM
PH holding at 6.8
Ammonia NH3 toxicity table .013, four points higher then last night and 4 points away from danger zone, although nitrite is becoming a concern with Nitrate not far behind.
So my fellow Wogs as you can see the battle of the bulge has ensued but I am confident we will archive the final victory. So until next time never forget we must fight in the sands, fight in the filters, fight in the seas, we will never serenader!

CWO4GUNNER

Update: back from church and 6 hours later decide to test before today's water change with interesting results:
Ammonia without intervention down to 2 PPM from 4 PPM 7am this morning.
Nitrate still climbing toward 20 PPM
everything else unchanged. Stopped at Petsmart and picked up a bottle of Stability. According to an email from Seachem the industrial strength engineered bacteria different then normally weak and fragile bacteria found in aquariums pick up all the slack on the consumption of ammonia, nitrates, and nitrites almost immediately without interfering but coexisting with their normal weakling aquarium cousins. Hopefully this stuff will put the body slam on Darth Ammonia and legions. More to follow.

Post water change followup1602. I made the decision that since my ammonia levels are somewhat on the decline that the 30% daily large water changes which are also stressful to fish should subside a bit. So I did a 10% water change with RO to keep my PH stable at 6.8 and added re dose of prime and ammo lock for 60 G tank
API test results ammonia 2 PPM
PH 6.8 PPM
temp 74
nitrate 10 but still gaining on 20 PPM
Nitrire1 PPM
Hopefully better news tomorrow.

CWO4GUNNER

Monday week 6 new cycling 60g tank with 29 fish.
Morning Wogs. Ill keep this one to the point. Just when we though we could see safe harbor on the horizon its looking more like a trap and the enemy Darth Ammonia although weakened by half has conscripted in new allies from Prince Nitrite's hordes and Borg Nitrate's drones, all are starting to mass and we must make ready for what I hope to be one last major battle. Alas the crew although still spirited, bright eyed and brave, and without one having fallen these past 2 weeks, I fear may still suffer casualties against these purple and orange forces.
0730 all 29 crew members mustered against the glass for chow, all present and accounted for with no casualties. Total water change yesterday was 6 gallons or 10%. Unfortunatly today looks like we will have to load and fire all canon (50% water change) This morning's water numbers are as follows:
Water temp 74
Ammonia 2 PPM, down but little comfort
Nitrite 1+ PPM, up & ominous.
Nitrate a solid 20 PPM Oh my!
PH holding at 6.8 this shield will have little if any affect against Prince Nitrite and the Borg Nitrates
All for now Wogs. Be brave, be patient, and above all be consistent in your first battles. Remembering that all counsel is good, but your the Captain on the ship not the Commodore.

CWO4GUNNER

Update: Water change followup. A bit concerned about the numbers of evil orange and purple forces massing at 1100 we fired 50% water change cannons broadside at the enemy laced with 120 drops of Prime, 20ml Ammolock, 10mil Nitraban, 10 mil stress coat, and 60mil white distilled vinegar (to maintaining PH 6.8). We even thoroughly used the vac attachment on the end of the Python to vac up any gravel debris which was very little due to using fine sand rather then trapping gravel. Followup API intel on the enemy was not as effected as expected but still affected nevertheless.
Ammonia 2 PPM unchanged
PH 6.8 PPM maintained
nitrate 20 solid unchanged
Nitrire .50 PPM down by half
Water Temp 74 maintained
All 29 crew members lively and accounted for.
Hopefully the Nitraban will suspend any major advance by Nitrates and will see ammonia start moving down. One observation I notice was the water out of the "Water Softener" is even lower in both calcium and sodium today after 3 days away from its last charge. Point is I will avoid from water changes until at least 48 hours has past since Water Softener charge which only occurs once a month.