Lucy

Hmmmm, that's interesting. Thanks for the info. It's been a while since I looked at it. Maybe they've changed it? It came in tab form not liquid and definitely wasn't a water conditioner too.

That's what's great about this hobby and forum, always something new to learn.

navyscuba

I got ammolock too but is too much everytime u use it is 5ml for every 10 gals so a small bottle don't last long. I just got prime and I read the label and is like 5ml for 50 gals that's awesome. well good luck.

CWO4GUNNER

I found what I was looking for, a product that would test ammonia deadly NH3 only, not both toxic NH3 and non-toxic NH4 together given you huge false ammonia PPM readings so that you can tell when to add Prime or ammo-lock without guessing.
https://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewI...ry~FITKAM.html

CWO4GUNNER

For those of you who want to stick to the standard ammonia test that measures total ammonia like my current API test kit and most out there, here is a link to an excellent site of instructions and tables that gives you the true NH3 toxic ammonia level of your aquarium using on your kit ammonia reading in PPM, your current water temperature, and your current pH test kit results. Using those factors these tables are very accurate in determining true toxic ammonia from non toxic.
http://www.dataguru.org/misc/aquariu...ml#ammonia3ppm

Shawnie

imo all ammonia is toxic...there shouldnt be any in a cycled tank...ive never tested for ph until last week as someone was asking what ph is good for cories..and have a varied reading in each tank with cories all around..so ph isnt usually an issue if its stable..not sure why all the tanks have a different ph, as I use the same water with everything..not that it matters much since last week was the first time ive tested in years.....each fish seems to acclimate to their tank...as long as the ammonia and nitrites are 0 and my ph doesnt move up and down, fish do well ....

CWO4GUNNER

New test results with regular API test kit (my Seachem Multitest on order). I waited until late this afternoon giving 24 hours for the privious dose of ammo-lock and Prime to subside and for the new water temperature of 73 degrees (down from 76) to last the day. Also these new numbers are after after this afternoon's water change of 10% RO, 25 mil distilled vinegar, and 15 ml ammo-lock. OK here they are Ammonia 1.5 PPM just shy of 2; PH 7.0; nitrite somewhere between 0 and .25 PPM; and nitrate surprisingly past 5 and headed toward 10 PPM, go figure its starting to show cycling.
I cant believe how much of a difference changing out my dirty canister filter worked to give me back workable progress even with a relatively small water change today 10%. The fish also showed a marked improvement after changing the filter in conjunction with last nights 30% water change and lowered PH. Today they have been much more playful and colorful, well at least my Barbs are much brighter and contrasted in color especially red.
I can finally relax a little . Thank you all for your encouragement and support, I am new at this, I just have a habit of throwing myself into projects sometimes neglecting other important things LOL.

Lucy

Glad to hear your fishies are do better.
But I dunno....RO.....Vinegar....Ammo-Lock.
To me it would just be easier to keep a steady PH and do daily water changes with Prime in my tap water.

navyscuba

Good Job.

CWO4GUNNER

Thanks shipmate!

Lucy your right, that's why I wont give advice. I'm just sharing what has worked and what hasn't for me, for which I can assure you I have been forthright. I have a long way to go yet and am sure as with any learning process ill make my share of mistakes.

Lucy

Ohh, didn't mean my post to sound harsh. Sorry about that.
With this hobby some times unconventional things work. Also what works for one person may not work or be the best way for another.
We're all here to learn and share advise and your input and research is much appreciated.

navyscuba

Hey everybody learns from experience and mistakes and this is one of them for all of us...

CWO4GUNNER

0700 Update on cycle news from the 60 gal battle front:
0700 this morning no troop casualties. 26 fish seem alert and hungry probubly from the low feeding yesterday. Apple snail patrolling perimeters of rear glass. Water readings as follows for 0700:
Ammonia 4 PPM
Nitrate 5 PPM
Nitrite .50 PPM
PH 7.2
Water temp 74 (raised over concerns that 72 might bee to low long term)

A little dismayed at enemy strength numbers yet comforted in the fact that with PH low at 7.2 plus lower water temperature 74 degrees places my true free ammonia toxicity at a just .032, still in the danger zone! But with 50% Ammo-lock + 50% Prime used last night must be putting me way below toxicity or my fish would be dead or listless. After this morning test I followed up with a minor feeding as recommended 2 mouthfuls per fish.

1200 Update on cycle news from the 60 gal battle front:
1100 this morning no troop casualties. 26 fish seem alert and still hungry Apple snail caught sleeping while on watch. 10% water change (6 gallons) using pure RO, 15 drops of Prime, 25 ml of distilled white vinegar.
Water readings as follows for 1120:
Ammonia 2 PPM (last weeks filter cleaning allows change drop IMO)
Nitrate 5 PPM unchanged
Nitrite .25 PPM drop due to water change
PH 6.8 back down to best target level for ammonia lockup since mistakenly using city hard water last week.
Water temp 74

Feeling much better knowing that such a small water change (10%) and IMO use of RO water can once again give some control back against Darth Ammonia and his evil minion Prince Nitrite. Again IMO due to following advice when ammonia is in runaway numbers 8 PPM+ to clean out tank and filter without killing BIO media during large water change. In addition using the ammonia NH3 toxicity tables IMO is another great weapon that has helped, by keeping my temperature (74) and PH (6.8) relatively low places me with today's numbers at a safe .006 true NH3 ammonia. Cannot wait to receive my NH3 deadly ammonia test kit and get more control over chemical dosing with Prime & Ammo-lock.
I am a little apprehensive about the next stage of battle when I will have to face the Borg Nitrates and their adapting drones for which no chemical weapon can completely neutralize. I have been considering the only weapon that can defeat them "The Denitrator", alas but where and how to make such a weapon!:. Saga to continue

Shawnie

are you looking for any advice or just keeping track of your progress? just curious because just using the ammo lock is going to keep the tank from ever cycling properly but am glad the fish are doing ok with those high readings

CWO4GUNNER

I am counting on the Ammo-Lock to detoxing NH3 to NH4 ammonia exactly the way Prime does, but still allowing the ammonia NH4 to be consumed by beneficial cycling bacteria in support of cycling IMO. Goodness know I have enough of it that I dump into my flower garden where the proof that ammonia is present as they are growing like crazy. No more buying Miracle Grow I guess LOL. As far as my 26 fish are concerned remember they are feeling very low amount of true free NH3 ammonia which today is only .006 PPM.

Its all new to me and a new aquarium 5 weeks now and its a blast learning this stuff and seeing it work. This site has been a great help and inspiration but so has the book cracking.

Shawnie

have you used ammo lock sucessfully in a cycle before? im wondering where you are getting the information that it detoxes like prime does...ammo lock will not make it avail for the bacteria and they will die...ammo lock does exactly what it says..locks it down...although you still will have a reading it kinda suspends it where as prime just neutralizes it and although you still will have a reading with it also, its still available for the bacteria to consume...

FL CommunityFans

You missed his quotes with Lucy, Shawnie. Evidently Ammo-lock has been changed down the line at some point where it is now also a water conditioner and effectively works the same exact was as Prime does now, as per the labels he quoted from each product.

This is what I get off API"s site:

The bolded part would be the part I'm confused on, personally. When is it going to be available to be broken down?

Shawnie

I guess I did miss that so I applogize ...it has changed and I didnt know that...thanks for allowing me to learn something new again!!!!

I was shocked about this so I called api and sure enough, it is exactly like prime

FL CommunityFans

You rock lol.. must have finished your call as I was finishing reading up on their main site

That's good news then that they've changed the product to be much more effective.

Shawnie

I agree...im so awful in trusting words...for that again I applogize...its my nature I guess...someone should make a new thread about this as its totally news and good news at that..again Im sorry CWO

Lucy

Yeah, how 'bout that. When CWO told me, I was surprised and looked it up. They've definitely changed the product. It used to be in fizzy tab form.

Sorry, but this is
I found it interesting API would make Stress Coat+ and ammo lock, 2 products that claim to do the same thing.
So I looked at my bottle of Stress Coat+. It states that it removes ammonia from tap water. Not detoxify it.

K, I'm finished hi-jacking CWO's thread.

Further discussion about these products can found here:
Prime = Ammo-lock?
Thanks FLCF

CWO4GUNNER

Well I have to admit the first week of doing this and not knowing a thing I just grabbed the stuff (ammo-lock) off the shelf at Pet Smart with bunch of live fish in one hand. If I had know about Prime I would have bought first it instead as Prime apparently takes care of more then just ammonia and doesn't bankrupt your wallet (great value). But I though off road motorcycling and repair was tough, proper tropical fish keeping is not a hobby for the faint hearted, complete with iron man and triathlon water changes. I think I have used a bucket more in the last 3 weeks then I have my entire life LOL. But its all fun in the battle to archive such a wonderful sight behind that glass wall.

Shawnie

I joined here with a 30 gal tank with 2 10inch ocars in it !! I ended up just putting them ina new 75 gal and then learned about the cycle...I cant use a python on my sinks so 50% water changes every day until the cycle completed, which took 9 weeks, just about put me over the edge!! my chiropractor adores my fish hobby!

docjr03

Thanks for the link- I have been sporadically looking for that level of info. for awhile. I had a few questions about the chemistry side of things that weren't adding up to what I was seeing; such as my slowly dropping pH. I also learned a little more about dirty filter media... I guess us old boatswain mates can still learn something (other than painting) after all

BlowPhish

Wow what a battle! Did you add all those fish in a matter of days or all at once? Look at your battle this way. Your good bacteria's food source is ammonia. If there is more ammonia then good bacteria then more good bacteria will grow to eat the ammonia as long as there are sufficient places in your canister for them to grow. Now by using those chemical products that remove the ammonia for 24 hours you are actually delaying your tank cycle because the bacteria is not growing as fast as it would. You could always pick up another cheap external filter to make it work.

Edit: Ohh I forgot to add that you would need to seed your secondary filter with some dirty media from the main filter.

CWO4GUNNER

Hi BlowPhish, I went out an got 14 fish on the first day 2 Tiger Oscars, 4 Silver dollars, 6 Neon and two albino Cory's. You have to buy neon's in schools you know, apparently they get eaten in schools as well because they were missing the next morning and one of my Cory's was chewed up and diden't make it. I returned the Oscars and on the second day I picked up 5 large Tiger Barbs. On the third day I did my first 2 gallon water change as instructed by pet Smart with RO water, but I lost 2 of 4 silver dollars the next morning because I diden't know I had to treat RO water for chlorine just like tap. On the 3rd day I started reading my butt off about all this cycle stuff, but before I started reading I went out and bought 5 green Tiger barbs, and 2 Pecos's. On the forth day I was just beginning to understand everything I had read but also had the fish bug bad and went out and bought a bunch of ornaments, sand, and extra hang on filter to back up my 350 canister and also bought 2 black molly's, 2 platinum molly's, 2 red wag mollies, and two star burst. On the 5th day I was plagued by unwashed sand clouds from which my fish would appear only momentarily against the glass, so I installed a polishing filter to get rid of the clouds and it worked. By the 6th day Iread the Biowheels were good bacteria love to live so I modified my extra hand filter to accept marineland biowheels (DIY posted in filter section). By the beginning of the 2nd week I had fungus growing on the glass fast so I installed a 24W Sterilizer and it worked but set back my cycle so its off until cycling completes. By the end of the 2rd week I bought a master test kit and by the end of the 3rd week I found FishLore and then I lost 1 Pelco and 1 starburst in my first ammonia battle. So basically from then on its been one big fish learning fest with an extremely steep leaning curve and because I'm retired I have the benefit of monitoring the situation 24/7. These last few weeks have sure been allot of fun LOL. So you see I'm doing every thing I can to keep the 26 fish I have left alive and healthy, even if it means taking a few detours on the path to cycle. Would I do it differently in the future if God willing I buy that 260 Gal tank Iv been dreaming about? Absolutely! But I'v jumped in the blades and now I must see my fish through this trial by fire just like in the service. Semper-Paratus!

CWO4GUNNER

Wednesday 0800 week 5 of new tank beginner cycle.
Ammonia levels remained steady through the night 26 fish no casualties all are alert and eager to chow. IMO survival so far due to tank clean of excess decay matter in tank and filter, use of Prime & Ammo-lock, low water temp, low PH, and 13-15% water changes daily so far in fight against Darth ammonia NH3. Fed lightly but a bit more then yesterday. Found out turning off filter and turning up air stones during feeding helps not waste food and create waste, also pre-wetting food in a cup of aquarium water then dumping is better distributes food for all to have a chance to eat. Water numbers as follows 0800:
Ammonia 4 PPM, up from yesterday's water change of 2 PPM but exspect drop with today's water change.
PH 6.8 holding steady and help keeping ammonia NH3 locked up
water temp 74 also helping with NH3 lock up
Nitrate 7.5 first time starting to clime and hope to see Ammonia go down
Nitrite .50 this up from yesterday concerned and unfamiliar with tox impact
NH3 Ammonia Table toxicity .013 SAFE!

Question anyone know the effects on fish that eat carbon dust on surface of water? My molly's have bee sucking this up due to light meals with no ill effects yet.

docjr03

Nitrite: Mine went up to .25 to .5 to 1.0 and back down in less than two weeks. My total NH3/NH4 levels never went above .5 ppm and my pH never went over 7.0, so I'm thinking I had both the AOB's and NOB's replicating at the same time. At your high ammonia levels, I wonder if your NOB's may be inhibited; after reading some of the links you posted, I wonder if larger volume water changes might be in order...?

Carbon Dust: Are you dealing with a one time spill or a constant source? I can't imagine it would be very harmful in small enough quantities...

CWO4GUNNER

I have my carbon and ammonia chips separate now from the canister and hang filters because they seem to need replacing or cleaning more ofter. As a result of having them suspended in a stocking floating but tied up top about the air stone stream, been having an almost indistinguishable light coating of carbon on the water, this even after prerinsing for 5 minutes. I did some research and found out that carbon made from Bituminous Coal (what I'm using) has allot of ash or coal residue. Bituminous Coal is the same stuff used by the discount or common name brand aquarium activated carbon (AC). The best AC to use is that derived from coconut shell but its more expensive. Doing more research about what municipal water companies and homes with wells use is exactly the same thing for the same purpose only in bulk bags but same grain size. Example 1/2 cubic foot or 15 pounds of coconut activated carbon cost just $63 which includes shipping or 1/2 cubic foot of Bituminous Coal or 15 pounds carbon cost $54 which includes shipping. This stuff is actually much higher quality with pathology report and certified to have extremely low asks and phosphates because its for human use. After using this nasty sooty aquarium Bituminous Coal (wont mention name brand), I am going to order it in bulk and save more then half the cost of best premium aquarium coconut activated carbon.
http://www.apswater.com/shopdisplayp...tivated+Carbon

To answer your concern about my cycle. Yes my cycle is a little off probubly because I have 26 fish in a 60 gallon aquarium cold turkey and it going to be a tough ride but I am on it and haven't lost another fish since last Saturday. We will see what my readings are this afternoon when I do my 13% water change of pure RO.

PS- OH yeah only the molly's (6 total) are eating the floating coal dust for 3 days and so far they are fine. In fact they look better and are more lively playfully doing some mating ritual by rubbing each other underbelly and sides.

docjr03

What has your research told you about carbon in aquarium filters? I have read that it wasn't all that necessary, so I got rid of mine.

CWO4GUNNER

I found out more detailed info with regard to its essential benefits in water reclamation and petrification for human consumption then on any fish site which seems to make different claims depending on what aquarium expert you read from. But human equation it was pretty consistent info. Quote "AC for water reclamation is very low in ash and relatively free if iron and is primarily used to remove odor, taste and the absorption of orthochlorophenol and the removal of free chlorine and a host of other industrial chemicals at end use water supplies. The end product is clean, fresh water, with no objectionable taste characteristics." It goes on to say how it can be back flushed or in our case rinsed many times before the end of its service life.

On a different site not having anything to do with water reclamation I read that you properly recharge AC by either baking it wet at 500 degrees in the oven for 1 hour or in a microwave for wet for 20 minutes (don't mind the sparking). Both methods oxidize the bio matter clogging the carbon pours and brings it back to 80% efficiency for about 5 times.

The only 3 reasons I would find it essential is IMO it reduces aquarium odor and toxins as well as medication when finished treating a tank, 35 years ago I remember it worked great for this even though back then it was activated charcoal. (Coffee)

PS, one thing I forgot to add was AC's water polishing ability and how it really clarifies cloudiness out of the water also mentioned in water reclamation. Incidentally I found a solution to separating my AC without having to suspend it in water. I just used a pair of sheer pantyhose legs cut off and made reusable tie sausage containers for each side of my hang filter in the space behind the pull out media sponge without any interruption in flow or my biowheels. Now I can simply pop them out whenever they need replacement without taking the filter apart. That particular color of hose never looked good on me anyway LO, just kidding wife's