shih-tzu mom

Dozey; when you go into said store again-tell them the 2-fish you bought can't swim,since you got them home and them ask them to test again lol bella

pinkfloydpuffer

Classic

Dozey

Point well made.

However my curiosity was as to what advice I would get from my local LFS regarding my tap water. This actually was not an experiment to put down the LFS but rather to educate myself in what advice I am getting from my local stores.

I posted my experiment’s results only to encourage other new fish keepers (like myself) to purchase and use their own test kits (as you do). Many new members here rely on water tests from their LFS and I feel it is important to “test” the advice we get from our LFS.

As to my profession I’m a network engineer. Although I’m not sure how that relates to fish keeping but you asked.

I am new to fish keeping; I am doing a great deal of research to try to achieve the best possible knowledge that I can to best care for my new pets.

I get advice from my LFS, from friends that keep fish, from FishLore members, from books, from my local University’s Marine Biology department and even from YOU. Some where in the middle I’m sure the truth exists.

Dozey

So not me...

This is me, a simple guy.

me.JPG

Fla_Larry

knowing your profession makes it a tad easier to use an example ie

User A: New user has aspirations of being a power user, brings you a computer in, asks if it works. You check or an associate of yours check it out, what do you do?

You: perform some basic tests, POST fine, OS inits fine, connectivity is fine all with-in established params. Ask the User if he has any concerns with the PC, User responds not really, just want to know if it is OK to use, You Return the PC to the user, Just fine for use.

OK for now



User A: returns to his little cube settlement, and informs everyone how the IT dept people are all idiots, after all he just took a PC with some trojan software on it, and I.T. said it was safe for use.

User A:
BWAHAHAHA, IT couldnt find their butts with both hands. New let me see if i can find another way to mislead them into running the wrong tests again.

TennThunder

WOW, Dozey, I would have NEVER guessed you as a biker type, more like the accountant type. Does anyone else agree?

Fla_Larry

Im thinking a bit more like Nancy Grace

TennThunder

Good point Dozey is closer to Nancy's age, rather than Mike's age. I think maybe Dozey could upload his escapades online and this could be the start of something big. Maybe his gimmick could be "FishBoy" and he could get so big online that he gets his own TV show and stuff. We can all tell our grandkids, "We knew Dozey when."

Dozey

Just so wrong. I run into situations like this all the time. No one with a virus/Trojan ever opened an email attachment or was surfing an adult website. When asked to check out a system I always do virus scanning, registry checks, file system confirmation etc, etc.

It’s because of twenty years of business that I know all too well to check things properly.

I didn’t go into the LFS with a song and a dance. In this case I simply handed a jar of water to a LFS manager and asked them to test the water to ensure it was safe for fish. Now anyone that has spent more then a day on FishLore likely knows the basics about the “cycle”.

If you brought me a water sample and asked me if everything was OK I’d spot in 5 minutes that something was wrong (of course I’m no expert). ammonia = 0, nitrites = 0, and nitrates = 0 – your tank is not cycled. Zero nitrates is a pretty good clue to this fact.

If you brought me your computer and pop-ups loaded as quickly as the computer did this would be an indication to me that there was a problem with the system. I don’t know who your doctor is but in my own case if I saw my doctor complaining of a pain in my leg when I had a stomach problem my doctor would check my leg, my blood pressure, heart rate, glands, temperature, ask me a load of questions. After the examination he would tell me that he can’t find anything wrong with my leg but did notice a great deal of rumbling from my stomach and ask me if I were having any stomach pains. But then again I have a competent doctor.

I specifically asked the LFS manager if my nitrate levels were OK to which I was informed everything was perfect. I am new to fish keeping and I sure wouldn’t over look the painfully obvious fact that zero nitrates meant that your tank wasn’t cycled.

I did not encourage the LFS to run the wrong tests on my aquarium water, just the basics. And in this particular case they got the obvious wrong or totally mislead me.

Fla_Larry

ahh and there we see the danger of assumptions. I never said the trojan was active, just that there was trojan software present.

i simply provided enough information to cause you to not test correctly.
unless you run an indepth scan of all files you would simply overlook it.
and if i thought you might perform said scan i could simply hide it with a extension rename causeing the scanner to skip it. or tell you to hurry i ony have 20 minutes to get this PC back.

Now what if it was an Intern i gave it to?
even easier to snooker.

And never assume it could only come from e-mails or adult sites, Limewire/Frostwire etc are equally good sources. Proper scanning procedures are as you pointed out the correct method, however as an IT professional, i just assume you are aware, users are the bane of our existance, they will always do the unexpected, so we have to learn to be very proactive in detailing the issues, some are however vewy vewy clever, and will do the most bizarre things, like " hey i have this e-mail that was sent to me and every time i run it i get a virus, why cant you fix that. ARRGH ok so you delete it, that will fix it, user is right back because, since you "Removed" the virus infected email it must now be safe to reload it. And poof the Virus or Trojan is right back.

At one point i got where i would tell a user to do something and then count the keystrokes by sound just to see if they where hitting an extra key along the way.
I actually caught a few that way, bizarre? most definatly expecially when you stop them and ask what key did you just pressed.


So do or should we expect the avg. LFS clerk or mgr to operate at this same level !!! NOT HARDLY, it takes years of practical experience to anticipate what a user might do to a piece of equipment, just as it takes years of experience to anticipate what a new aquarist might to to his or her fish.

So if a clerk misses testing for clorine or clorimids, or calcium, or PH in a water sample because they just assumed no experienced idiot ( oops i ment aquarist ) would bring in tap water to test to see if it was safe, so they must wish an ammonia test, Just run the basics.


Now if you had gone in and said " I live x-towns over could you test this tap water i am going to add or fill my tank with", they would not test for ammonia, but rather test for chlorine, hardness, Ph etc.

That is being misled through ommision, plain and simple. Just as i did in the above example.


Remember you can never make anything Idiot proof, because Idiots are so ingenious.

TennThunder

Larry, why are you trying to pick a fight with Dozey?? Come on dude, Dozey is cool and was just sharing a funny story and you're trying to start with him. Not cool, man.

≈ D ≈

Fla_Larry

no fight picking, just pointing out even LFS clerks make errors also, especially when not provided with full info. and here i though my responses where on the humerous side as well ( well maybe squewed to the IT field side). No one likes to be picked on, not even LFS people.
along with that it makes the rest of us look bad, just a little gentle nudge to say, chill out dude, hey maybe they where busy, so lets not make a sport of it.

Now if that particular LFS habitually dis-diagnosed repeatedly after being fully briefed ( well to the best of our abailities anyways ) That would be differant.

I just dont like bullying i guess

Fla_Larry

BooYa, well said D

TennThunder

Right, this was a fun thread and it looked like Dozey was upset by Larry's computer comparison thread and it ruined the thread. No big deal-can't tell how people mean things on here.

Jess

I think the investigations should continue. . .
Good luck Dosey on your next adventure. Keep us posted.

aquatic mouse

I think the tap water test was a GREAT idea. It shows all of us "noobs" not to put all our faith in the water tests our LFS do. WAY TO GO DOSEY & THANKS!

Fla_Larry

not sure i would call it "fun", But it just is not "Cool" in my book, but hey to each their own, as to Dozey being upset? well i certainly didn't get that from his response, but then that is my impression.
His responses are right as i would expect them to be, In IT you always have to dig to get at the correct problem, Users are not trying to be intentionally deceitful ( generally that is ) they simply dont know any better, so we have to act accordingly. While you may think these are for the most part jokes, Most are true stories, and that makes it all the more aggrevating at best.
Now the end result is we then by extension expect others to work the same way, and short of the likes of Doctors etc that just ain't gonna happen.

We know to question everything, Trust nothing. Retail clerks i expect to just give me what i asked for unless i have asked for something totally outrageous, then maybe question me a bit.
add to that if i happen to have one user that is maybe making a "Pest" of themselves or trying to "show me up" then sure out of spite, i might do exactly as the user requested, and let them pay the consequences.

Now having worked both sides of the counter i tend to be maybe a touch defensive when someone makes this sort of thing a "Sport" or thinks it is funny to go down to the LFS and see if they can be misled. The answer is obvious, of course they can, and it is not particularly difficult to do at most places anyways.
But in the end it really only serves one end....

We have to however ... let me re-phrase that, We Should however set up as an example to those even newer than us the way to do things.

Is it the better example to those newer than us to:

A) show them how easy it is to deceive the LFS Dept mgr or clerk by intentionally misleading them or only asking half the question.

or

B) how to ask the questions so they get the correct answer.


and to never just accept the pat answer because that is the answer we wish to hear.

Yes they work in the Pet Industry, but no one goes into any field knowing all the questions to ask, or things to do, That takes time.

CHoffman

Fla_larry..I was waiting for you to say you worked at a Chain Store LFS...I would say yes you are defensive. In several threads. . Dozey wasn't trying to hurt anyones feelings or BASH them he was just giving them a test....IMO it's a good idea. You know if you can trust them or not. 0 Nitrates should have been red flag no matter what the situation was. It goes back to them not caring and not doing their job. Doing what Dozey did is a good idea no matter where you work at or who it is. It keeps people on their toes and makes them think twice about doing their job right. The only thing I think he should have done differently is explain what he did and explain why they should be doing things differently. I see nothing wrong with what Dozey did. When I was working at a Farm store in highschool, My boss used to call me on the phone and act like a customer asking if we had crazy things in stock...I didn't know if we carried them so I walked into his office to ask and there he was laughing...allot...about to fall on the floor..But he told me good job at checking and not just blowing it off.

Fla_Larry

actually a Radio Shack Computer Center, Yes i sold and serviced TRS-80's
mod I - IV all the way to the SX's etc, Yu think you guys are harsh on LFS people.... hah, I supported the Trash 80's ( and an extra 5 points if anyone can tell me how they got that name).
the original Nerd Herd Bwahahahah

So i have had my share of New computer users come in asking half questions, and just outright fabrications, and simply do not wish to listen.

And if thats not enough, i have also done time as a Gray Shirt for AutoZone,
You want to hear some real horror stories? i have a ton from both sides or both the jobs and counters.

Like the guy that tried to hammer ( yes Hammer 16oz ball peen variety ) a rotor on to his car, and as it did not fit, he wanted to return it.

Or the guy that need tech support for his computer because it kept resetting on him everytime he kept hit Ctrl/Alt/Delete, because at the bottom of page xx it told him to press those " 3 keys to clear the screen".

Of course at the top of the next page ( which he did not read) it continued "and reset the computer"

Fla_Larry

Oh i dont believe he was in anyway trying to hurt anyones feelings, after all the clerk or dept mgr has no idea he even did it.

I look at it this way, and nothing against his newness.

As i have mentioned in several other threads, NO one comes into this knowing what or how to do things. As a result we come onto these forums expecting to be treated with a modacum of respect and understanding.

As a new user how would you feel if you came on here asked a simple question then where berated, or if after a whole month mantaining your tank and fish, you had a death or two, would you expect anyone to treat you as a bumbleing incompetant?
I would expect not, I count myself as once again New even though i kept and maintained tanks for over 20 years, by todays standards i was doing a lot wrong, But my fish where healthy, and well kept.

Does that give me the right to "Test" a newer user for sport?
It really does nothing more than denigrate this forum, because once you start this sort of thing, newb users now read it and wonder " woah they where a tad hard on the guy at the LFS, what will they do to me if i mess up? or make a really dumb mistake"

You see my point, It does not help the new users, it silences them.

and BTW i now work for Wal*Mart Logistics ( prob. makes more sense now eh lol) I run the weekend IT dept we support 80 stores and 23 Sams along with our own 22acre WAN, and around 600+ users, believe me i can tell you stories that would cause the hair of most any IT person to just immediatly fall out nto the floor.

Although some are really funny

TennThunder

All good, see I think that was the problem, you can't tell how people mean stuff on here. LOL, Dozey seemed POed, so it was like, "that sux". We are always the friendly crowd here!!

Fla_Larry

Yes most defiantly a very friendly crowd, and that is what allows these " Threads" to progress with out turning into " Flame wars".
If i thought for even an instant that the general consensus of this forum was to gain enough knowledge to snooker a clerk at the LFS, then there are far more forums that i can frequent that do not. Heck i belong to 5 others now anyways, 2 i do not spend much time on due to to their "Superior" attitude shall we call it. Have i gotten any info from them, sure have, got into a very decent thread on lighting, that allowed me to get a grasp on the "New" methods and the ability to chase it even further even though i was strongly discouraged from proceeding.

As a result i believe i have a very good grasp on lighting and how and why the WPG guideline exists, and now actually understand how power consumption can equate to Photosynthesis, a connection i though tenious at best, but it actually makes sense.

TennThunder

I still like my Adventures of FishBoy online web series idea....

Fla_Larry

Roflmbo

TennThunder

LOL, I could just imagine Dozey going undercover at all these places, he would be perfect at it. Hope Dozey is alright, you never see him not post at all, come back FishBoy!!!

Dozey

Thanks for your comments everyone.

And no I’m not at all upset by Fla_Larry’s comments. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and should be free to express them.

My only intention with this experiment was to help members of FishLore who are new to fish keeping. I have read countless threads where new fish keepers bring their tank water into LFSes after having their tanks for a few days to a couple of weeks and are assured that their tank water is safe. This often leads to debates between the new and confused and experience members. In all of these cases the new member took aquarium water to the LFS. So I merely did this experiment to express to new fish keepers that they really should not rely on the LFS for their water testing.

I’ve only been a member here since November 2008 and have seen this situation repeated time and time again. Often these same new member will finally break down after much encouragement by experienced members and purchase their own test kits only to find their reading are ammonia 5, nitrites 0 and nitrates 0 (for example).

I certainly except that people make mistakes but there seems to be an unusually high rate of “mistakes” made by LFS employees. Was it a mistake on the LFS employee that sold my wife a 3 gallon tank, 2 cichlids and a catfish? Is it a mistake when members here purchase common plecos for their 10 gallon tanks every single time?

Regrettably I don’t remember the thread that a member posted that they worked in a LFS and admitted that they were NOT allowed to advise customers or refuse a sale of fish based on incompatibility issues regarding the customer’s tank size or fish stock.

I did not point out my experiment to the LFS employee because my intentions certainly were not to belittle them or humiliate them in any way. Again, my intention was to encourage members here to purchase test kits and not to rely on their LFS for water testing. IMO this experiment was very successful in demonstrating this point.

Fla_Larry… I am sorry that you found my experiment upsetting but I do not apologize for doing so. When my mechanic of over 20 years decide to retire and close his shop the last work I had him do for me was a complete overhaul of my brakes (disks, drums, pads, shoes and cylinders). Over the next few weeks I took my vehicle to several auto shops for a brake inspection. I visited a half a dozen or more shops that handed me a list of needed brake service. Eventually a shop finally reported to me that my brakes were “like new”. They now service my vehicle.

My customers constantly test my company’s abilities and question the costs for my services. And IMO they have every right to do so. They pay my monthly fees year after year and respectfully have the right to question my service fees and performance. Despite this my customers have been with me for over 20 years. I account this to my professional and accurate information and service.

All that aside, I still enjoyed this experiment and found the results quite interesting. But most of all I hope my experiment and the results will encourage new fish keepers to purchase a quality test kit.

Fla_Larry

Jess

Good job!

aquatic mouse

Dozey, this is what My LFS gives me, a filled in checklist that looks like this:

Ammonia (PPM)
0 .25 0.50 1.0 3.0 6.0


Nitrate (ppm)
0 20 40 80 200


nitrite (ppm)
0 0.5 1.0 3.0 5.0 10.0


Total Hardness (ppm)
0 25 50 120 250 425

Total alkalinity Buffering Capacity (ppm)
0 80 120 180 240 300


pH (ppm)
6.4 6.8 7.2 7.6 8.0 8.4


They also have advice between the results.