cg49me

Well, I lost one of my neon tetra "starters" this morning. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but I am worried for his two remaining buddies and the pleco I've got... Yes, yes, I know that I'm WAY overstocked with a new tank (especially with the pleco in there), but I didn't manage to figure that out until the deed was done.

So, now I'm on a mission to save everyone else, and try to get my nitro cycle going. My LFS had API Stress Coat +, so I stocked up on that, and I'll be adding it every time I do a water change (every night). I also have API Stress Zyme, which the SC+ instructions say to add along with it. The SZ claims to help the "biological cycle", but some people have said that the bacteria in SZ is of the non-self-sustaining sort, and that I should go with Tetra SafeStart instead.

Okay, question time... First, will the use of SC+ (which neutralizes ammonia) impede the formation of nitrite forming bacteria? Second, can anybody comment on Stress Zyme or SafeStart - SafeStart is a little on the pricey side, and if I don't have to drop the cash for it, that would be great. Lastly, once my nitro cycle does get going, should I switch from SC+ to regular SC, since the bacteria should be taking care of the ammonia at that point?

Thanks guys - these forums are full of great info and people!

Shawnie

im sorry for the loss of your fish ....the zyme helps but isnt strong enough to do as it says and the bacteria is more of a watered down version...safestart is the best...yes the sc+ will neutralize and is the best for it..as well as prime...how old is the tank? when cycleing with fish, it takes weeks...what are your water readings for ammonia nitrites and nitrates? knowing that will let you know where you are in the cycle process

cg49me

It's only a week old - my ammonia was usually around 0.25ppm. I grabbed these ammonia "tank buddies" from Wa-Wa while I waited to hit my LFS, and my ammonia tonight was pretty much zero. Neither of the nitro levels is registering at this point, but that's to be expected.

I'll order some SafeStart then. Once I get it, should I continue to use the SZ as well, or just use the SafeStart?

Thanks!

Shawnie

do daily water changes with some prime or stress coat+ so you dont loose any more fish ...and then when you get the safestart, stop the water changes and add that only and give it a week before you test again...then go from there for water changes....id still put in a bit of streecoat+ or prime everyday just to keep the fish safe..

docjr03

Why do you stop water changes/testing with safe-start? (I'm just curious)

Shawnie

safe start is like bio spira...you add it and wait 7-10 days to allow the cycle to start and finish..changing out the water takes out the bacteria needed and also the ammonia needed to feed the bacteria..you dont want to test because the high numbers of ammonia and nitrites will drive you over the edge as they really get high as the cycle process happens...

docjr03

won't that harm the fish?

cg49me

That's what I was thinking...

Dozey

Yes it will.

A controversy over Tetra Safe Start is that on the product label it claims “INSTANTLY” cycle your tank. But on the product data sheet Tetra states that SafeStart will effectively lower ammonia by 10 times and reduces nitrites by 14 times.

So the real truth is that TSS does not “instantly” cycle a tank. It does very effectively greatly reduce the amount of toxic exposure to your fish but does not eliminate it completely.

For 7-10 days your fish will be exposed to low level of fluctuating toxins.

Further, it isn’t know that controlling toxic levels at a low level (daily water changes) for an extended period of time is any more dangerous to fish then exposing them to wildly fluctuating levels for a 7 to 10 day period.

TennThunder

Do most people here think SafeStart works to cycle the tank (in 2 weeks or so, not instant)?

Dozey

I do believe it is becoming more common knowledge.

I’m certainly not suggesting TSS is a bad product. If I found myself in a situation that I had to add fish to an un-cycled tank I’m not really sure what I would do as I really don’t know which is more beneficial for my fish. Keeping ammonia (for example) at 0.25ppm for 30+ days with water changes or wildly fluctuating ammonia levels for 7-10 days. It’s a tough call.

I do know that sudden water temperatures and pH levels are very hard on fish.

TennThunder

Thanks Dozey, I'm getting it sent tomorrow and will start it and let everyone know if it worked for me. It will be a miracle if it does.

Dozey

I think you can expect good results. Certainly those who have used it and followed the instructions carefully have had very good success with a speedy cycle.

But do follow the instructions carefully. Those I’ve heard from that failed with TSS failed because they tested their water during the 7-10 day period and panicked and immediately did water changes.

The problem isn’t related to actually testing your water; the problems arise when people react to the test results.

So if you are tempted to do water tests during the cycle just avoid the temptation to react to them. You’ll just have to sit back and sweat it out.

docjr03

1) I still don't understand why changing the water while cycling hurts the process.
2) I agree, my research has shown that nothing will instantly cycle a tank, but additives like tetra start and cycle will speed it up

Dozey

My understanding is as follows…

TSS is the first product on the market that does not require refrigeration as well as offering a reasonable shelf life (1 year). Tetra apparently worked on this product for many years prior to releasing it. What they managed to accomplish was to suspend the bacteria in a dormant state.

It is the introduction of ammonia and nitrites that activate the “sleeping” bacteria. Until this point the dormant bacteria is free floating in the water (unlike naturally occurring bacteria). Once activated the bacteria seek out a home (gravel, décor, filter media). As more ammonia and nitrites are introduced more and more bacteria is activated. Which explains the wild water readings during the cycle.

By doing a water change you will be removing the dormant bacteria from the water. Therefore it will not be available when needed to handle increased toxins.

Shawnie

it very well could if you dont add the prime or stress coat+ a lil bit each day..dont bother buying the product if you arent going to do as its suppose to...

Red1313

I've used it and love it. I think that it's a great product. However now that I have established tanks I also believe that using seeded media works even better.

docjr03

Won't the dormant bacteria just get circulated into the filter media? I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just find this stuff pretty interesting and there is so much conflicting info out there.

Dozey

I respectfully question this advice. If choosing to cycle with TSS I suggest following the directions to the letter. Those I’ve spoken to that successfully cycled their tanks within the suggested 10 days followed the exact directions. Those I’ve spoken to that failed with TSS altered the directions.

My concern with adding Prime when cycling with TSS is; will “detoxified” ammonia activate the dormant bacteria. I don’t know the answer to this question.

So yes Prime would detoxify the ammonia and feed the established bacteria, but will it activate the needed dormant bacteria?

Shawnie

it does not detox where the bacteria is not available....it acts just like it would with ammonia when doing a cycle with fish..it keeps the bacteria and ammonia to a stage where the process still proceeds but keeps the fish safe.......ammonia activates the dormant bacteria prime has nothing to do with stopping or harming that

TennThunder

Great, guys. I called Tetra customer service up to make sure about it and a guy who really seemed to know what he was talking about said to just add the fish and TSS and nothing else or it might mess it up. I totally get what you're saying Shawnie, don't want the fish to die and hope they are ok during it. Thanks guys for the help.

Dozey

I can certainly understand your confusion as there is a great deal of opinions on TSS.

I unfortunately do not know if the dormant bacteria would cling to filter media or not. I do know that active bacteria adheres to aquarium surfaces, I’m not sure is sleeping bacteria can accomplish this or not. My research has suggested that no it doesn’t.

So if you threw me onto a fire pole while I am awake could I grab the poll and land safely at the bottom? I hope so. If you threw me onto a fire pole while I was asleep would I grab onto the pole or drop like a rock? ...That’s just me thinking outside the box.

TennThunder

I agree with Dozey on that one, not gonna do water changes or nothing during the 10 days. Sorry OP that the thread got off on TSS.

Shawnie

once you get the safestart, you arent suppose to do water changes thats where this all began LOL

Dozey

I’m just wondering what your comment is based on. Tetra does not recommend the use of water treatments during the cycle with their product. Nor have I read any claim by Seachem that suggests their product will leave ammonia in a condition that would activate dormant bacteria.

docjr03

How 'bout we make a new thread? This is the second time I have fostered a hi-jack, and I'm afraid Lucy will give me a whuppin' if I do it again!

Dozey

Lucy hi-jacks my threads all the time. I'm kind of known for that around here.

Shawnie

of course tetra wouldnt recommend it ..prime isnt one of their products..neither is stress coat+ ....once again..neither will activate the dormant bacteria..thats what the fish or ammonia source does not prime or stress coat+...but prime wont hurt the process tss is going through either because it only neutralizes ammonia and nitrites it doesnt remove or stop the process the tss is achieving by the bacteria eating up all the ammonia.... if you call prime, they tell you it wont affect the tss so I guess its a personal choice either way

im still for the add safestart and or fish/ammonia source..which ever you choose..and do not change the water for the 7-10 days...


I agree!! she taught us all we know

Dozey

Firstly…

I totally respect your opinion and certainly understand that Prime (SC+) leaves ammonia in a state that bacteria can feed on.

But obviously there has to be a chemical difference between ammonia that is toxic to fish and ammonia that is not toxic to fish. Quite apparently Prime (SC+) alters the chemical components that make ammonia safe for fish.

That said I don’t know if this altered chemical state would activate TSS’s dormant state. Likely all that water conditioner is doing is removing or adding an atom to ammonia that alters its toxicity to fish. Is this lack of or addition of an atom the triggering device for TSS?

Shawnie

No its not triggering or altering..its allowing the fish owner to feel better about the fish being in the ammonia knowing that its in a safer format with the prime...call seachem and they will tell you its fine to use it with tss...call tss and of course they will tell you its not...ive used prime with my 75 gal and tss because of overexposure to ammonia..it was recommended by seachem to use it and even tho the cycle finished in 6 days, I felt better ... but since, have so much extra media around I dont bother with the tss as its so expensive and just use my media

and I totally respect your views as well
its america..and we just had an amazing even happen that gives us the right to be able to communicate like this