CO2VA

I have a 50 gal tank and it is about 4 months old. Within the last two to three weeks I have had a high level of nitrite (10+). I started losing the neon’s; they are all gone now. I have 6 barbs, 3 platys, 2 cats and 1 goldfish (fancy). I typically do a 5 gal water change every other day along with vacuuming out the gravel alternating half of the bottom each time I do a water change. Yesterday I vacuumed both sides and did a 10 gal water change and still the Nitrite (10+) levels are way to high. The nitrate is in the safe zone (25) and 0 on the ammonia. The remaining values are TH=300, chlorine=0, TA=300 and pH=8.4+. What is the problem?

Lucy

Hi CO2VA welcome to Fish Lore

I'm sorry you've lost fish.
It looks like your tank isn't completly cycled or for some reason went into a mini cycle.
It would be a good idea to increase the amount of water you're changing to 50%. That will cut the nitrites in half and continue that until your tank finishes cycling.

Good luck.

Butterfly

Beneficial bacteria changes ammonia to nitrites. So something has been causing an ammonia spike. I would do a 25% water change and look for any little fishes that might have died and be stuck under something.
Also check your water from the tap. sometimes the water Company dumps stuff in the water and it affects our fish.
What are you using for a water conditioner? Prime is a good water conditioner to bind ammonia and nitrites so it doesn't hurt your fish but still makes it available to feed the beneficial bacteria. Keep us posted on how their doing Please.
Just a note.. you do know you have temperate water temp fish and tropical fish mixed in your tank?
Carol

sirdarksol

Welcome to Fishlore.
If you have a nitrite problem, this means your nitrogen cycle was harmed in some way. Have you done any medicating recently? Changed out all of the filter media? Anything else that may have harmed the nitrifying bacteria colonies?

In addition, your nitrates are a bit high, especially since you do 10% water changes every other day. I usually suggest them to be 20 or less. This is likely due to the stock of the tank. The barbs, platies, and neons aren't a concern, but the two cats (depending on their type) and the goldfish are big waste producers.

mathas

How large is the goldfish? Goldfish tend to be far messier than other fish of their size, and the larger the goldfish the more waste produced.

I noticed that your aquarium info section mentions you having a Penguin 200 filter. With a flow rate of 200GPH, that filter gives you about a 4x turnover rate... a common suggestion for that type of filter with messy fish such as goldfish is a 10x turnover rate. Adding a second (or larger) filter would give you more media to grow the essential bacteria on.

This lack of media for bacteria to grow on could possibly be exacerbated by you vacuuming half the gravel every other day. I don't know how fast the nitrifying bacteria reproduce, so this is a pure guess, but it could be that by doing a full gravel vacuum every four days, that you're keeping the nitrifying bacteria colony in the substrate small enough that, combined with the lack of sufficient media in the filter, it can't keep up with the amount of waste produced by the fish in the tank. Hopefully someone with a more scientific background than I have can confirm or deny that guess.

And speaking of filters, are you replacing the media often? If so, that could be part of the problem as well. Each time you throw media away, you're also throwing away the beneficial bacteria growing on it.

Other than that, increasing the water changes to 50% as Lucy suggested will help reduce the nitrites and nitrates.

CO2VA

I did a 50% water change today. The tank has turned over at least six times since I turned on the pump. I also did a complete vacuum of the bottom. When I added water I did it in 5 gal batches. Each batch was treated with Prime and AquaSafe. I just started using Prime. I have been using AquaSafe since I started the tank and used it at every water change. I also removed the goldfish. He was about three inches in size. The cats that I have are Peppered.

Chemistry of the new water change is:
Ammonia = Not tested. Do not have the kit. Historically when test at the store it is always zero.
Nitrate = 0-20
Nitrite = 10
GH = 300
Chlorine = 0
KH = 180
pH = 8+

My tap water has the following chemistry:
Ammonia = Not tested. Do not have the kit. Historically when test at the store it is always zero.
Nitrate = 0-20
Nitrite = 1
GH = 150
Chlorine = .5
KH = 180
pH = 8+

To Carol, In your replay you say: "Just a note.. you do know you have temperate water temp fish and tropical fish mixed in your tank?" I do not understand your question.

To all: Thanks for the input.

Butterfly

Sorry didn't mean to be confusing. After my post re-read your tank mates and realized you had goldfish(temperate water fish, prefers cooler water) and tropicals(prefer warmer water) together. Sometimes people don't realize they have different temperature needs. It was just an observation not a question really.
Carol

CO2VA

Not a problem. When I did my research the majority of people said the goldfish will tolerate the higher temps, which it does. However the Barbs are very aggressive towards him/her. I have removed the goldfish from the tank. I will see how the nitrite levels do without him. I was surprised that after a 50% water change the nitrite levels did not drop.

sirdarksol

They can tolerate higher temps (even higher than most tropicals can stand) for a while, but they like the temp of their water to change, while tropicals want a very steady water temp.

Nitrites not dropping after a water change suggests that there might be something up. You've been doing frequent gravel vacs, so it's unlikely that that's the problem (I had an issue with a nitrate spike when some maintenance stirred up the gravel. I had to do 100% water change over two days). I wonder what could be causing that. Your tap water has some, but not enough to make up for that kind of oddity.

Shawnie

im wondering if he is using test strips I have a feeling there might be ammonia and the pet store which uses strips most of the time, isnt reliable

soldieroffortune1974

There's the problem pet store

If there's nitrites,there has to be ammonia,it's impossible to get 1 without the other,and if the bacteria isn't converting the nitrites,then it's safe to assume that the bacteria isn't converting the ammonia (I know it's 2 different bacteria),so reasonable to assume that the cycle crashed (due to over cleaning/changing media) also safe to assume,it is in a mini-cycle or recycling completely depending on the amount of damage to the bacterial colony.

Water changes 50% and prime water conditioner,will take care of the fish while the problem corrects itself,or find the dead fish hidden under the decor that's causing the spikes,that too (in time) will correct itself.

Shawnie

it is possible to have nitrite without ammonia..especially since he has nitrates ....but I do think he does have ammonia and really needs a test kit for that

CO2VA

I will do more everyday water changes. I am using the test strips as do most pet shops. Will look into a chemical test kit over the next week. I guess right now I sit and wait.

Dozey

Hmmm... Pet shops use test strips... Yep. Let's think about that for a moment. They also keep cat and dogs in wire cages, over stock their fish tanks, keep rodents over crowded in un-kept cages... etc, etc, etc.

Rule Number One... never do what the pet shop does or for that matter what they suggest you do.

CO2VA

I have attributed my high pH to the tap water. It pegs out at 8. So I am reducing the pH with the 50% water change I did today. I used a liquid test kit for the chlorine, pH and Total alkalinity. All three of those results matched the test strips. I don't think the test strips are an issue. However I will agree that a liquid test is more reliable than a test strips.

Butterfly

Goldfish can tolerate warmer temps but are more likely to be stressed and get sick in warmer temps. Warmer temps also raise their metabolism and they age faster. Glad you have moved it to another home(tank)

If your tap water is at 8.0 pH then doing a 50% water change won't lower the pH, it will stay the same I personally wouldn't mess with the PH, there's nothing in your tank that can't handle it. A fluctuating pH is more stressful for your fish(such as when trying to make it perfect). They do better with a stable pH. The other things going on in the tank are more important at this time.
Carol

sirdarksol

I agree with Butterfly on the pH thing. I have a natural pH of 8.2 in my tanks, and I keep neons, glassfish, kuhlis, and bettas, and they all are doing fine, despite liking more neutral to acidic water.

As far as temp, she's right on that, too. I should have elaborated when I said that they can tolerate warmer temps. Basically, they're built to survive life in shallow water, which can change from really low temps (nearly freezing) in the winter to really high temps (80+) in the summer, when the pond/marsh is directly under the sun. They prefer the lower temps, but can survive brief stints at the higher temps.

CO2VA

I could not disagree more with the impact that pH has on fish or the tank ecosystem. I will agree that most fish can survive in a variety of pH conditions if pH is maintained at a safe and constant level. However, over the last week I have had a chance to do some research on what role pH plays in the aquarium; not only for the fish but as it relates to the ecosystem as well. First, proper pH is required to develop the bacteria necessary for the nitrogen cycle to work. The optimum pH range for Nitrosomonas is between 7.8-8.0. This is important because the Nitrosomonas bacteria is necessary to convert the Ammonia into the dreaded Nitrites. The optimum pH range for Nitrobacter is between 7.3-7.5. This is necessary to convert the Nitrite into Nitrate. Additionally lets talk about ammonia. At low levels of pH (below 7), ammonium will be developed. This may not be a problem to fish and is not as toxic to fish as ammonia. A pH level above 7 you will get ammonia. There are two aspect of Ammonia that need to be looked at. One is Total Ammonia and the other is Toxic Ammonia. Total ammonia is just that, Ammonia that is not corrected for temperature or pH of your tank. When you correct your Total Ammonia reading for pH and tank temperature the ammonia reading will increase; indicating a more toxic condition. This is why pH is an important aspect of freshwater fish chemistry.

Peterpiper

Very good info,
Just a point, total ammonia NH3 & NH4 ( Ammonia NH3 & Ammonium NH4 )
When ammonia NH3 is added to water with a PH value <7 it becomes ammonium NH4. As the PH is increased, a percentage of the ammonium will revert back to ammonia.

sirdarksol

CO2VA;
While your information is scientifically accurate, it has a limited impact on a properly-set-up aquarium. Nitrifying bacteria will adapt to and survive in nearly any pH (or there wouldn't be nitrifying bacteria in the Amazon or in the African hardwater lakes). So while a higher or lower pH may slow the growth of the nitrifying bacteria, it will not fully stop it.

This is where the "properly-set-up" comes in. Once a nitrifying bacteria colony grows enough to handle the tank's bioload, pH doesn't really matter to it. It's grown to the point that it will handle that tank's bioload in that pH. A properly-set-up tank has been cycled before fish are added to it, so the colony has already reached the mass necessary to deal with the bioload in question, and will continue to grow, as long as you don't add too many fish at any given time.

Combine the above information with the fact that playing with pH is sending your fishes' cells on osmotic roller-coaster rides (unless you can afford an RO system and have the patience to create the perfectly balanced water), most of the folks on Fishlore very strongly suggest not worrying about pH, other than to monitor it for any changes that could harm the fish.

CO2VA

I agree with your assessment on the pH and the establishment of beneficial bacteria. Over the last week I have monitored ammonia levels and they have constantly remained zero (0) for total concentration. The percentage of toxic ammonia is starting to creep up while the levels of nitrite have remained a steady point two (.2). I do not know when, but am expecting the toxic ammonia to drop and the nitrite levels to increase and then watch for the nitrite levels to drop. I have purposely stopped water changes in the last week. However I have this unexplained urge to perform a ten percent (10%) water change just because, but I am holding off. The fish do not show any signs of stress at this point. It will be interesting to see how the chemistry works.

Lucy

I don't understand. You've already lost fish.
Is there a reason you'd want to expose them to toxic levels?

eaglescout316

Interesting info on the bacteria and their pH liking, but the amount of people successfully keeping fish w/ higher pH than the fish like, plus the fact some fish prefer higher pH, gives way more empirical evidence that the pH's stability rather than value that is most important.

Plus, bacteria reproduce quickly and can adapt quickly to changes. For instance, most bacteria prefer not to be exposed to penecillin(sp), but more and more diseases don't seem to care. Similarly, the bacteria you mention will most likely adapt to different pH ranges, evidenced by my 7.8 water being capable of 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites without issue. And finally, consider it from a practicality standpoint. If your pH is too high and kills half your bacteria, how long will it take for the colony to double in size? Not long. If you change your pH level and kill half your fish in the process, how long until they come back?

edit: Sorry for the redundancy, didn't see there was another page of posts

CO2VA

Lucy, The fish are doing fine. I am testing the water every two days to see how the tank is cycling so I can establish a consistent water change schedule. Both of the Ammonia levels (Total and Toxic) are well below levels. Also my normal tap water has a Nitrite content of point-zero-five (.05). My tank Nitrite levels are point-two (.2). With a zero (0) Ammonia I am not convinced that the Nitrite levels of point-two (.2) are of no concern. Correct me if I am wrong or causing cruel and unusual punishment?

Lucy

I was just reading about ammonia, nitriate and nitrate poisoning. I thought I saved it, but can't find it right now.

Any level of ammonia and nitrites are toxic to your fish as are high nitrates. Even if your fish look fine it doesn't mean the levels aren't effecting them in some way.
From what I've read nitrite is more toxic than ammonia at lower levels.
It can damage their immune system and leave them open for secondary infections.

soldieroffortune1974

eaglescout316 Ph ranges for the fish do vary,and fish adjust well to differing PH ranges. What you say is true of the fish.

The bacteria info,on the other hand,isn't quite as accurate. Nitrifying bacteria do not grow rapidly.The energy of devouring ammonia and nitrites takes up 90% of the energy that the consumption achieves.While the bacteria is highly adept at reducing ammonia and nitrites fast and efficient,that doesn't leave much energy for growth.The bacterial colony grows steadily,but slowly.Other bacteria develop and grow rapidly, about 36000X's faster than nitrifying bacteria does. That is why the cycle process takes a while.

The bacteria do prefer certain PH ranges to obtain optimum growth and efficiency.The bacteria will survive in various ranges,however.The PH outside of the bacteria's tolerance,will slow how fast the bacteria grows,and hinders it's efficiency to convert ammonia and nitrites,thereby needing a larger colony,which takes longer to develop.

The bacteria does not adapt to changes rapidly or well.Different temps,PH ranges and fast swings in the parameters will kill the bacteria as fast as it does the fish. A PH crash will kill the bacteria.A temp swing of more than 5 degrees will kill the bacteria. If your pH is too high and kills half your bacteria, how long will it take for the colony to double in size? roughly 97 hours for the bacteria to adapt to the swing,before beginning the process of replicating again.Once replication has started,it will take approximately 2 weeks for the colony to double it's size,even longer outside of preferred ranges.It will take a while,but will recover.Eventually.

CO2VA not changing the water while the aquarium is cycling is harmful to the fish. Your tap levels will be of no concern,when the aquarium is fully cycled.After changing the water,2 days later there will be a reading of 00,even with a reading from your tap.The TOTAL and TOXIC levels are the same,nitrites are toxic in ANY level,just not AS TOXIC as ammonia is.Once the cycle is complete,and the bacteria is established,they will convert the nitrites from your tap to nitrates in about 12 hours or less.As of right now,the levels are still toxic and should be of concern.

I would continue doing the water changes,until the cycle is completed. That is up to you,of course.

Lucy

I was just reading that nitrite is more toxic than ammonia.
I wish I could remember where I saved the atricle.
But at any rate. I agree, water changes are in order.


Edit: This isn't the article I was refering to but it also indicates that nitrites are more harmful because it stays with the fish longer.

http://www.ponddoc.com/WhatsUpDoc/Wa...ureBalance.htm

soldieroffortune1974

Yeah, nitrites can be more harmful in the long run. It does take longer for the fish (or most animals) to get rid of the effects of nitrites versus ammonia. The assumption that ammonia is more harmful is based on the short term effects of ammonia and nitrites,of each in the same time frame.In the long run,nitrites are more harmful,in an accumulative effect.In the short term (time it takes bacteria to remove ammonia and convert it to nitrites) ammonia is more harmful. The article is correct,just depends on how you look at it. Short term = ammonia is more harmful.Long term = nitrites is more harmful.

Lucy

Thanks, that makes it more understandable.

CO2VA

All of this information is great. I plan to do water changes today after taking my readings. Okay I took my readings and the water was a week old. No Ammonia and and reading of point-two (0.2) on the Nitrite. I let the tank circulate for four (4) hours. This is approximately sixteen (16) times the water has gone through the filter. Again I took readings. They are the same. Zero (0) Ammonia and point-two (0.2) on the Nitrite. A week ago I did a seventy percent (70%) water change and today it was a fifty percent (50%) change. Just how many changes and how often do I need to do them before the Nitrite levels go to the safe zone?