TheJimsterness

Just tossing this out here for debate, but is it just me or does overstocking kind of correct itself? The least hardy fish kind of die until the tank corrects itself. And also, I think (think) that having fish that use different swimming levels, i.e. hatchetfish and cories, let you off the hook on the 1 inch per gallon rule as long as the filtration can take the bioload?

Alessa

The different level of swimming does help. The problem is the overall capacity of the filter and the overall space the fish have (no matter the swimming level, 20 fish wont fit in a 5 gallon).

Also, overstocking for 5 inches in a 10 gallon tank is not the same as doing so in a 150 gallon tank.

Another thing to take into consideration is the size of the fish, 9 2-inch platies in a 20 gallon are not the same as an 18 inch common pleco in the same tank.

MunkeyFish

Wouldnt you feel bad if your "not so hardy" fish die? Plus fish naturally have unlimited water space in the wild, by decreaseing there space in a tank your only making them more uncomfortable

jdhef

The other problem with being over stocked is bio load. Even with great filtration, you will be doing more frequent water changes. A lot of ammonia leads to a lot of nitrites, which leads to a lot of nitrates, which can only be reduced through frequent water changes.

MrsM3197

Since we're kinda thinking "out loud" so to speek, I'll thow in my too. I think a slightly overstocked, well planted tank is my personal favorite to look at. That being said, the choice to keep an overstocked tank depends on several factors. The bio-load like John mentioned, those of us that choose to keep overstocked tanks really must do more frequent water changes, and keep on top of our water parimeters. Non-hardy, and ill fish will not do well in an overstocked tank so it is also important that we quaraneen (God help my spelling), all new additions to our tank so that we don't introduce disease to our already established tank (that goes for under and overstocked), because many fish will predate or scavenge off others that are sick, dying or dead. You don't want your whole tank going belly up over 1 sick danio (just using that as an example). Your filter is important...but it isn't a miracle worker. Overstocking does correct itself to an extent, you just need to study and use a little common sense when you do so. Be prepared for extra work. It's worth it to me.

sirdarksol

To answer the question that was asked: No.
Yes, the weaker fish will die off, but the extra ammonia/nitrites/nitrates will have already harmed the stronger fish, as well.
During this time, lack of swimming space will have stressed all of the fish out, further weakening immune systems.
These fish will have shorter lives, be more susceptible to illness, and will be stunted. If you were trying to breed them, their fry may also be stunted and sickly.
Lastly, there is no 1" per gallon rule, so you can't be let off the hook from it. This is simply a guideline, meant to give an idea of how many smaller fish can be handled by the bioload of a tank. Nitrates don't care about swimming level, so that has little impact.

On to theorizing:
My first question is this; why would you want to pay for fish that are going to die, anyway? Aside from purposefully killing off some fish, you're wasting your money.

I personally like understocked tanks, but I understand that others prefer overstocked. This is fine, but if you don't keep up with more frequent water changes (greater frequency is better than larger, as you don't want the nitrates to get too high at any point), your fish are likely to be sick.
As far as swimming space goes, yes, if you've got larger fish that enjoy their swimming space, figuring the layers does allow you to stock more fish as far as space goes, though, again, nitrates don't care about where a fish swims. It spreads out pretty much evenly.

Jess

I thought I noticed you were understocked sirdarksol.
The thinking is less stress on the fish, less stress on the fish keeper. : )

sirdarksol

'cept for the koi tank which we've been discussing, of course. Yes, my tanks are understocked, and are going to be further understocked when I have the chance. I've decided that I don't like guppies in my huge community tank, so I'm going to give them a guppy-specific tank eventually.

Allie

We never lost a fish due to over stocking or even the times we had to cylcle with fish. As long as you have the time to do extra water changes & have extra filrtation on your tank, your fish will be fine. But only if they aren't rare fish or whatever.
Most times I think people worry about their tanks too much. I use to and found out that too many water chnges is bad for certain species.

Angela_96

Watch your nitrite, nitrates, and ammonia levels. Make sure you do keep your tank and filters clean. When your fish are exposed to ammonia, nitrites in the water you are hindering their immune systems, and their ability to breathe. Even at low levels of the nitrites and ammonia it can hurt your fish.
Also take in consideration swimming space, as long as they have plenty space to swim you should be okay, ie don't put an oscar in a 30g tank.

TheJimsterness

Oh, i don't want to do any of the things I said, I just wanted to point out that aquarium ecosystems are similiar to wild ecosystems, in that the whole darwinism thing takes place. Interesting about the nitrates, though, I completely forgot.

Butterfly

I would like to respectfully disagree. A closed environment is nothing like the bigger bodies of water and spaces the ancestors of our fish, and some of our fish come from. Aquaria depend on people to do water changes, add food and keep it warm or cool which ever is appropriate. We also mix fish together that would never be together in the wild. Wheres a wild system has water running through, is refreshed with rain, and there's room to get away from aggressors if need be where as in an aquarium there's no place to go. This is why an overstocked tank is hard on fish.
Giving them plenty of room and appropriate tank mates allow our fish to display their beautiful colors and unique habits.
Crowding fish together and letting "Nature" take it's course is not taking good care of a living creature that needs us to take the very best care of it we can. Overcrowding is also stressful and stress causes/encourages disease. If disease strikes it may even take some of the stronger fish eventually. Just my thoughts.
Carol

TheJimsterness

Interesting thoughts. I completely agree that overstocked tanks are hard on fish. However, conditions are not always perfect in the wild, either. For instance, when pirahnas are stranded in puddles during the summer (the streams/lakes/ponds dry up). My point is that "nature" tries to take place in an overcrowded tank, but has entirely different results because it is contained in a glass box. We try to imitate nature in aquariums, but sometimes it is nature that prevents us from doing so. Anyways, thanks for the talk, and not biting my head off for pondering out loud (on the internet).

Red1313

Pondering is always allowed on fishlore. I think it's the best way to try and see different points of view on fish-keeping. It's also a good way to see y some of the things that people say do/don't do are vaild or not.

And I have to agree with butterfly. It is very difficult for nature to exist in an enclosed system b/c nature didn't design itself to work in them. A fish tank is more of a static system rather then the dynamic one of nature.

Alessa

I thought pirahnas live in the amazon basin?

sirdarksol

I would like to point out that there is a difference between "fish adjusting to problems in the natural environment" and "purposefully putting fish in a bad situation."
Large-scale failure to recognize this is what allows Petco to claim "Bettas live in mud puddles." In the end, bettas mostly die in mud puddles (as the dry season claims their waterways). A few survive, and even more survive in those waterways not as badly dried.

In the end, yes, nature will try to fix things in a heavily overstocked tank, but with such little space, it's too easy for the pendulum to swing too far the other way. A 10% survival rate in nature may leave hundreds or thousands of individuals to repopulate a particular waterway, while a 10% survival rate in an aquarium can leave you with one (or zero, depending on how you're rounding your math ) fish.

TheJimsterness

my point exactly

Allie

Depending on the species they live a throughout the rivers and basins when dry season is in effect they swampy area lots of other animals get to eat piranha for dinner.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piranha
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/P...a_Species.html

SkyCrystal

Wow, this topic is really drifting!

Drat! Piranha are illegal in my state! That's dissapointing, because I was planning on keeping a group in the next year or two. Oh well... my mom would freak out if I got even 1. Lol! I can see her face now: 0.0

Blub

They are highly overrated - they don't move much and tend to hide a bit. I think Allie has kept several species.