laurad

Hi all,

OK, I have a not-so-classic "new tank syndrome." I set up the tank (incidentally using the same decorations, gravel and filter from our last attempt 3 years ago when everything died.) We have a 10 gallon tank with 2 plastic plants and a couple decorations (a plastic "shipwrecked" boat and a ceramic "no fishing" sign.) I let the tank sit for a week and kept testing the water but nothing was changing. I initially added StartRight, StressZyme and BullsEye. My tests have been consistently at: Ammonia .25-.50, pH 7.4, buffering 220, Hardness 120, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 10-20, temp 78-80. Everything looks good on paper!

FYI, we have well-water with a whole house water softener. I don't really know exactly what the system is since we just bought this house with the system already up and running.

We even added a few pieces of gravel from the library fish tank (immaculately maintained) to "seed" the beneficial bacteria. After a week, we bought 3 swordtails. I floated them in the tank, added a cupful of water to the bag for 20 minutes or so and then dumped them in, water and all. When I dumped them, I noticed that the water coming out of the bag looked "oily." I didn't feed them the first day as recommended by the pet store.

The next morning one fish was dead. I retested the water but everything looked the same. No ammonia spikes, nothing off. (I'm using the test-tube style ammonia test.) I took the fish and a water sample back to the pet store and they tested it too. The lady said that the problem was my pH. Since they keep their tanks at 6.8-7.0, she said it was too much of a shock to my fishes systems to have the pH change that much. They recommended that I add a half dose of BullsEye to the tank daily until the pH was at 7.0

So, I went home and added a half dose. The next morning, a second fish was dead. (Actually, the kids and I watched him die which was quite sad. I felt so helpless!) I tested the water again and the pH had actually gone UP to 7.6 and the Buffering was off the charts.

I called the Pet Store and they were stumped. They literally had no clue. they insisted that it's still the pH (I think for lack of any other answers.) On my own, I decided to do a water change. I went to the store and bought a few gallons of spring water. I drained out 25% of the water and added 2 gallons of spring water (yes, I tested it first.) to the tank. The water chemistry is virtually unchanged. The latest test: pH 7.6, buffering 180, hardness 120, nitrites 0, nitrates 20, ammonia .50

What the heck The last fish (all by himself) is not looking good. I'll be surprised if he lives another 24 hours. I just can't figure this out. The Ammonia isn't high, the pH is within a relatively normal range, I just don't get it! Please help me figure this out!

I had a fish tank for YEARS as a teenager and never had any problems. Thanks for your help. -Laura

tzqng8

The Ammonia IS high. Anything that registers is lethal for the fish and they will suffer from Ammonia poisoning. The only thing you can do at this point is do 50% water changes every day until you have 0 Ammonia, 0 Nitrites, and 10-20 Nitrates. That will mean your tank is cycled and fish can slowly be added to the tank. Use Prime water conditioner each time you add water to help lock the Ammonia and Nitrite levels (this will help by not letting them getting high enough to kill the fish).

As for the PH, it is unlikely the cause of their deaths. Fish generally require a stable PH, not a particular number. The reccomendation you will get here is to not chemically alter your PH. Let the fish become accustomed to it and leave it alone.

Welcome to Fishlore and keep us posted. You'll get plenty of help and advice, I promise!

P.S. Do you have a heater? Do you have a filter? Give us some of that information and it will help.

P.S.S. You say you know about the Nitrogen Cycle in your profile, but some of your comments make it seem like maybe not so much? I don't want to question what you do or don't know at all. But, you can read more about the cycle here.

COBettaCouple

Welcome to Fishlore.

On the pH, it's best to let the pH be. pH altering chemicals creates a roller coaster of pH that's hard on fish. They're better at a stable pH. Ours are at 7.6 pH.

I would recommend using Prime to treat your water and changing 50% of the water daily until the tank is cycled.

jdhef

You might want to be sure that the Prime is compatable with the Safe Start. I bought a two 5 gallon aquariums over the weekend. I decided to try cycling with Bio-Spira which was the old form of Safe Start. On the package it said that water conditioners that lock up ammonia shouldn't be used.

Part of the problem may have been that you waited a week after adding the Safe Start before adding fish. The Bio Spira said to add the fish immeadiatly. I think the theory is that yhe bacteria in the Bio Spira needs the ammonia from fish waste to feed the bacteria, So your bacteria could possibly have starved off. But this is all conjecture on my part since I have no experiance with Safe Start and there may be differences between Safe Start and Bio Spira.

One last thing, you should never dump the bag water into your tank. Net the fish out and place them in the tank.

Sorry about the loss of your fish. Good Luck

tzqng8

Where did it say they used SafeStart? I just used it myself to get my 30g going and wouldn't have recommended Prime if I knew that. I see that they used StartRight, but I don't think that is the same thing.

In addition, fish are supposed to be added right away with SafeStart, just like with BIO-Spira.

laurad

Thank you all for your replies so far, I really appreciate it. It amazes me how little help the staff at the pet store is. This is a small business in a small town, they should be more knowledgeable than they are. So, anyway, I'm glad that you folks are so generous with your time with newbies like me!

To answer a few questions that have come up:

1) Yes, I know about the nitrogen cycle. I read about it on this website, actually. I know I should have waited far longer to add the fish. But this tank was for my kids: ages 7 and 4. They were badgering me daily about when we could get the fish. Normally I'm pretty good about saying "no" to my kids! But in this case, I caved. I just couldn't tell them that they had to wait two months before adding fish! I guess I just figured that if I kept a close eye on the water chemistry, started with just a few fish and did water changes as needed, we'd make it through the water cycle. And the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels had been very stable over the course of the week prior to buying the fish. The literature that I had (that came with the ammonia test) indicated that a .50 level was well within safe limits for the fish. In fact, it says that it could go up to 1.0 before becoming dangerous. (Perhaps I'm misunderstanding?) I'm not disagreeing with your position, I'm just explaining why I did what I did.

2) I have an inexpensive BioBag mechanical filter. It uses little meshy bags with carbon inside. I reused the old filter (from 3 years ago- believe it or not, it was still in the filter housing) in the hopes that it had some of the good bacteria in there that would be re-activated once I got it running again. I hope it wasn't harboring something nasty that is killing the fish! I changed it to a new filter bag with new carbon this morning. I also have an inexpensive little heater. Just the "test tube" variety and my temp monitor is simply a sticker on the side of the tank that changes color with the temp.

I did add the Start Right and the StressZyme when I first started up the tank and then I added them again the morning that we bought the fish (one week after start up, about 2 hours before fish were introduced.)

OK, now my questions. One of you suggested that I do 50% water changes until the cycle stabilizes. I've more frequently read 25% water changes. I do still have one fish left alive, is it safe to do a 50% water change while he's in there?

Also, what is "Prime?" Is it similar to BullsEye?

Thank you all again. You are doing the fish-world a great service!

Coryd55

I would do 30-35%. No more than 50% though. Past that can make the cycle worse and it also stresses out your fish more.

About the old filter, you might want to wash it out (1 part bleach: 15 parts water or just use tank water). Also once it dries out the bacteria dies off. I just read that you got a new one so just disregard that.

Prime detoxifies the nitrites and nitrates and basically protects your fish in less than ideal conditions. It also serves as a water conditioner(someone correct me if I am wrong.)

Cory

sirdarksol

You've got it, Cory. Prime is among the top quality of water conditioners. NovAqua+ and Ultimate are, in my opinion about equal to Prime, in case you can't find the it.

jdhef

You are correct, he did say StartRight...my mistake! Very sorry.

pepetj

Hi laurad: Sorry for your kids' dead fish.

Hope your surviving swordtail is still alive. As those before me stated, let the pH be. It is within safe range. No idea what BullsEye is (couldn't find that product in DrFosterSmith.com, BigAlsOnline.com, PetSmart.com, or LiveAquaria.com), could you tell us what exactly it is? and the manufacturer?

I say keep this simple. Change 3 to 5 gals daily with water treated with Prime (or similar products that not only remove chlorine/chloramines but also prevent toxic spikes for 24 hours). Feed the fish sparingly (do not overfeed). In a small tank, water parameters can change quite rapidly (likely what killed the previous two).

Get a test kit (most people here use API FresWater Master Test Kit), based on liquid reagents (for all parameters). It doesn't matter if you already have a liquid reagent test for ammonia, you will use it anyhow (what brand is it?). At this point, you should focus on Ammonia, Nitrites, and Nitrates. Keep a daily log of those values.

Since you are doing daily water changes, don't worry at this time for pH, GH, KH, etc. Keep using your usual water source unless it has out of range parameters (Apparently, an ideal reading for water source parameters is to let some of that water rest overnight, untreated, in a shallow plate and make the measurements early in the morning -read an expert stating that, don't know the details of why).

Have you considered putting some plants? (e.g. bundles of Anacharis, which need low light, provide surface for bacteria -and algae too?- and helps in keeping nitrates down)

Good luck and wellcome to fishlore!
Pepe
Santo Domingo

tzqng8

I understand! About 90% of the people on these forums, I'd guesstimate, knew nothing about the Nitrogen Cycle when we started. We put some water in, threw in the fish, and wondered why most of them died a week later. I wasn't trying to come down on you at all. We've all been there and you came to the right place for help (saying that from experience!)

If you read more information about the Nitrogen cycle from actual fish hobbyists (here and in other well reputed internet sites), you will see that any test that registers Ammonia is registering a lethal level (the same is true for Nitrites). That doesn't mean it will kill 100% of the fish in your water 100% of the time, but it will, at the very least, stress them out. More fish stress = more fish death = unhappy children & parents = Fishlore to the rescue!

Everyone else has been helping you with the other stuff, but just wanted to comment on that.

sirdarksol

Agreed with the last two posts on everything except for one little statement:
I would put the percentage of folks who didn't know about the nitrogen cycle at closer to 95%. It is, either directly or indirectly, the reason that most of us are here. I came when my tank got super-cloudy at the end of the cycle. I was freaking out, thinking my fish were going to die, when it turns out that they are finally out of danger.

tzqng8

'Tis what I get for guesstimating! I should have taken a poll! DOH!

LOL

sirdarksol

That's okay. I'm really guessing, too.

jdhef

As a kid I had a 10 gallon goldfish tank, then moved up to a 20 gallon tropical tank. I knew nothing of cycling and seem to remember my fish living a long time. Of course when you are 10, 6 weeks seems like a long time, so I don't know how long the really lived. Then as a young adult (about 25 years ago) I got a 20 gallon tropical tank, never cycled (ignorance is bliss, isn't it?). I then moved up to a 75 gallon salt water tank. It was at this point I learned about cycling a tank.

For some reason, it never dawned on me that tropical fish needed a cycled tank. Luckily when I went to Petsmart (of all places) the kid working there in conversation mentioned cycling the tank, and a lightbulb went off. I had only know of cycling with fish (I used damsel fish in that SW tank). So I asked what kind of fish to cycle with. He said danio's should make it through the cycle. Sadly he never mentioned fishless cycling and I didn't discover this website until I had already started cycling with the danio's.

It's amazing how much inncorrect info I had gotten all those years ago. I had actually been told back then that stocking was one fish per gallon! Thank goodness I found Fishlore

sirdarksol

I went through pretty much the same thing. I had guppies for what seemed to be a long time, then they died off. I got neons at some point, and they lasted for quite awhile before dying.
My parents and I knew nothing about keeping fish, and so I would break the entire tank down once every week or two and sanitize the entire thing. The guppies likely would have survived to develop a sustaining colony if I had just done 50% weekly water changes.

Much of this problem is due to misconceptions developed in the aquarist hobby in the 1980's and before. It was based on theories that, no matter how well-thought and intelligent they were, turned out to be wrong. That is, in the end, why we are here. We want to undo the harm done by these incorrect beliefs, that everybody who chooses to keep fish can have a healthy, long-lived tank, thus getting the most joy from it.

HatchetHaven

Indeed, when I started I knew about the cycle, so I waited a week, got 4 assorted livebearers and wondered why the tank went to cloudy, and why on earth they did not eat all their food!

laurad

Thank you all for your help and advice. I'm going to continue the daily water changes, buy some Prime and make the kids wait for more fish. That third swordtail is still alive so far. Hopefully, he'll make it through. He looks awfully lonely though....

-Laura