Jim

WOAH, like I said, slow down and plan what your doing... you'e about to make your first big mistake: plants won't grow worth a crap in regular gravel. They're just like terrestrial polants, they need a nutriant rich substrate to grow in. Putting an aquatic plant in gravel is like planting a rose in cat-litter... get it?

tkfury

I'm afraid the only options you have with a betta is either a group of otos or a group of small cories - and thats only if your betta will allow them to inhabit his/her tank.

If you're going with live plants (in the plant board, there is a sticky that lists some great guides - they include pretty much all you need to know about substrate, lighting andeasy plants to get started with), you may want to really look into otos. They are probably the best little algae eaters around. With otos you have to be a little careful, that you are getting the real deal (some places sell chinese/siamese algae eaters as otos).

With cories, you have to make sure you're aware of which species gets to what length - some only get to about an inch, dwarf I believe but they do need to be kept in larger groups and are more mid-water iirc, some get to 3-4 inches, take peppered for example. The average for most species is 2 inches.

I believe either some otos or cories should work with a single betta or a single dwarf gourami. The only problem is both otos and cories originate in South America. Some panda cories would look adorable with the theme though.

Jim

I normally dn't like to disagree with other members, but WHAT A male or female Betta will get along with almost any other non-agressive species. The only thing a male Betta will tear into is another male Betta. They are no way as mean or territorial as you make them out to be.
My bigger concern would be space in the tank, and water conditions. A Betta is an Asian Swamp fish, so the water has to be soft and slightly acidic. VERY similar to an Amazon tank, just not quite as acidic. But the truth is, a well set up Asian Swamp and Flooded Amazon Rainforest floor bio-tope tank are almost identical in every way but current, and fish form each are definitly compatible. I know, I have both:



I do agree about the otos. They are wonderful, tiny little algea eaters, and are compatible with anything that doen't look at them as food. The only thing is oto's are schoalers, so you'll need at least 3 or 4 to make them comfortable.

tkfury

I am merely repeating the infomation I've been given over the past year within the betta forums. Perhaps I have interripted it wrong but from my stand point - I've taken that has been generally accepted that bettas are best kept by themselves. Otos are cories are prettty much as peaceful as fish come while most other fish have tendancies to become nippers when faced with a slow moving target thats mostly flowing fins. Its not that it can't be done but from the stories of heartache I've seen within the betta forum has lead me to believe keeping bettas in a community tank should be advised against. I should of watched my wording a little more carefully, I try to make sure people are aware that what I say is mostly my take on things from my own experiances and from the stories of those I've gotten to know from the site.

Amnagrla stated she is trying to do an asian theme - everyone has their own opinion on how far they want to take a theme so I just mentioned that naturally, the infomation I've found doesn't place otos or cories in an asian biotope. As you've said - both habitats are very similar so there isn't a problem, it just depends on how far Amnagrla would like to go with her theme.

Barbrella

I'm sorry, but that is simply not true. Bettas are individuals, and some of them will indeed "tear into" many other fish, especially any that have bright colours like neons or guppes. I have one that would not even tolerate a snail.

Other fish, particularly fast-moving ones like tetras and danios, will often rip a betta's fins to shreds.

Better safe than sorry is my motto. No one wants to take a chance of coming home to mutilated or dead fish.

And many plants will grow in plain gravel. Unlike terrestrial potted plants, aquatic plants have fertilizer from the fish and any uneaten food. I've grown lots of plants in gravel. It just needs to be deep enough for good root development.

chickadee

Well, I do not have the slightest problem disagreeing here as I have the best interests of the fish at heart and I happen to have had my bettas in with enough different types of fish to feel like I can speak with some certainty. They do not get along well with others. They do not learn to do so because they are not raised to do so. They do not get along with gouramis, sharks, guppies, platies, mollies, tetras, danios, barbs, white cloud minnows, angels, other bettas, swordfish, ANY other fish with long fins, and some of the fish that are not on this list should be not because the betta will attack them but because they will bother or feast on the fins of the betta and you will soon have a betta with infected fins at the very least. There is a very short list of fish that can safely be kept with bettas, either because of the betta or because of them. Most of them are either totally bottom dwellers or nocturnal so the betta and they have no area in common. Even at that there are some bettas who can resolutely refuse to have any other creature in the tank with them. It is not their fault. It is the way they have been raised. They have been in a container totally isolated from other fish since they were a few weeks old or younger. They do not know or understand that they are fish or that other fish have the right to share their water. They think that they belong alone. It is their instinct and their habit to be alone. Good natured ones will tolerate such mild mannered and unobtrusive fish as Corydoras catfish, Otocinclus catfish, some of the smaller Plecos (not really suitable for a 10 gallon tank), and the more excitable Dwarf Loaches who are very entertaining when kept in a group of about 4 (Botia sidthimunki or Yasuhikotaia sidthimunki) Dwarf or Chain Loaches. The Loaches are very active and funny and entertaining and I love them but if you have a nervous betta they will not tolerate them. The good thing about the loaches is they are fast enough to keep away from the betta. The Otos are hard to start but do okay if you get them going. They are fragile little fish and go through a hard time coming to us from the wild as they are not bred in captivity. The treatment they receive is horrid and the mortality rate is high but I always keep a few as they are sweethearts and do the best job of cleaning tanks. Cories are not algae eaters so please do not get them with that in mind. They eat Shrimp Pellets and will eat bloodworms and the same type of food as the betta (not pellets generally) so don't plan on them keeping the tank clean but they are darling fish and cute and their eyes wink at you and make you melt. All of the recommended tank mates for the betta need to be kept in groups of three or more so you need to choose one type and not plan on having them all in that size tank. You will find some of them easy to find and others not but all can be found online if nowhere else. There is a great deal of difference in price in the three types. It all depends in what you are looking for.

The thing is when you plan a betta tank please be aware that any time you put a betta with other fish you ALWAYS need to have a back up plan and a way to seperate the fish if things get out of hand. Bettas have personalities and they ALL differ. There is not a way of knowing when you purchase a betta whether you are getting Mr. Docile or Ms. Easy Going or the Devil in Disguise. The most murderous betta I ever owned was a red Cambodian Female. She killed literally every other critter I ever put in with her. Then she literally killed herself even. Then I have had Males who I thought would be horrid and they were *****cats when it came to tankmates.

ANYONE here will tell you that I adore bettas and would never tell anyone not to get one but they are not community fish and will never be. The people who insist on putting them in with a community tank and making them adjust are very lucky if it works. Bettas are much closer to us than to any other fish. They will develop a personal relationship with their owners and it is important to make sure that they are treated personally as they do not thrive otherwise. A Betta is not a fish you can open the lid to the tank and throw the food in and sit back and relax and watch the pretty fish. They are not a decoration, they are a pet in every sense of the word. If you do not want to invest something of yourself into the fish then perhaps a betta is not for you.

And for further reference, on this forum, we do not ever ever ever call anyone names or refer to them or anyone as stupid or any other derogatory comment. This is totally against the rules.

Rose

angelfish220

I agree, not betta is a community fish. Its just to risky

Saying that, I have attemted to grow plants in regular gravel and they died. now I have a watersprite growing great in a tank of soil and sand. So yes, i do belive that you need a nutrient rich substrate to grow plants.

Saying that, I am not saying that it is impossible to grow plants in regular aqarium gravel, people here have done it with sucess and I am not calling them liars, I am just basing this off of my own personal experiances.

And Jim I've never grown roses in cat litter. But at this moment there is dandylions growing in a pile of stones in our driveway.

sirdarksol

As with terrestrial plants, aquatic plants have different needs, and there are plants that will do fine in gravel, just as there are plants that will grow well in a soil with a high clay content.
In most cases, the substrate is less a source of extra nutrients (barring iron, which is easily added in other ways) and more a source of root protection. Gravel is rough on tender roots.
However, some plants, like aquatic "onions," grow very well in gravel as long as there is some iron supplemented in the substrate. Easily done with supplement sticks.

Amnagrla

Wow. I don't check for a little bit and chaos happens.

I suppose I should clearify a little since there has been lots of discussion.

1) I already have otos in another tank. They are my favorite.
2) When I mentioned getting a few small fish and then a showy fish, like a gourami or a betta... I didn't necessarily mean that I was going to use neons and a betta. This is a forum, I thought the idea was to throw some ideas around? If I chose neons or something like that, I wouldn't get a betta. If I did, I probably WOULD get more otos. I'm just asking for ideas here!
3) Water conditions and tank size is always an issue. I hope some of you know me well enough to know I wouldn't put my fish in danger.
4) And as far as "whoa slow down" - I haven't actually done anything yet? I bought gravel... lol and mentioned my idea for expanding this project over the course of a month.
5) I currently have some amazon swords that have been growing (and flourishing) in just gravel. I do add Flourish to the water but I do understand that that doesn't work for everything.
6) I just want everyone to know - I am a research FEIND! I will read up on something until I know as much as my brain can obsorb. I would never do something to my fish tank without looking up everything there is to know about it.
7) Finally - I appreciate EVERYONE'S help with this.

Jim

Fine already, I apologize, you guys don't have to e-mail me threats for Gods sake!! I'm leaving the forum for good.

Bye all...

Phishies Inn

Wow I can't believe this got out of hand so quickly...I hate to jump on the "Other" side, but I kept my betta with some zebra danios and neon tetra and they never bothered him. Actually they avoided him, and he avoided them. Maybe I was just lucky? I don't know. But from what I've seen bettas can get along with other fish, the real concern I think is the different tank conditions...for example, bettas like much warmer water than a lot of tropical fish, etc...but as far as behaviors go, my neons and zebras (and cory catfish) never minded him. Meh. That's all I got.

Jim

WHERE DID I CALL ANYONE STUPID?? I said the ADVICE (that aquatic plants in gravel are fine) was stupid, NOT THE PERSON, and I stick to what I said.
You can try all you want to plant an aquatic plant in gravel, fine. It will probably do good at first. But without the proper nutrients to feed on, or proper Lighting, or CO2, it's going to start leaching what it needs from the surrounding environment, i.e. the fishtank water. And in a couple months, when the plant(s) have leached the surrounding carbonates and minerals they from the water, 3 things are going to happen:

1) any fish in the tank is going to start suffering from calcium & mineral deffency and begin to die off, and any inverts in the tank will slowly start to lose their shells as they disolve in the water.
2) as the carbonates are leached, the buffers in the tank are going to collapse, and the pH will dive or spike, which will also kill the fish.
3)The worst part is the person owning the tank is going to look for what's going wrong, see nice healthy plants, and there's going to be about a 99% chance they'll totally miss that the plant IS the problem!!!!!!

So I say again, in the SHORT TERM plants may thrive, but in the long term, you plant an aquatic plant without giving it what it needs to survive, and it's a recipe for eventual disaster!


Again, it doesn't matter anyway, I'm just waiting for Mike to PM me how to delete my membership, and I'm outta here for good.

Coryd55

Wow. I can't believe how out of hand that got. To be honest Jim DOES know what he is talking about and I would back up his word. If you would look at the success of his tanks than you would understand as well. I have grown plants in gravel, sand, and flourite. The plants live in gravel and sand but they do better in the substrate made just for them and are flourishing in the Flourite.

I also think that the tempermant of bettas ultimately depends on the individual but most are okay with fish that don't have large or flowing fins or that are colorful. Like I said MOST are very easy going and can live with community fish happily but then tehre are always those certain ones that like someone said will flare and attack a snail.....

Cory

sirdarksol

I'm going to ignore the drama surrounding this, as it is a moot point anyway, but I am going to respond to Jim's continued claim that no plant will do well in gravel.
As I said above, just like terrestrial plants, different aquatic plants need different things. If what he said was right in every case, those of us with Java moss and Java fern would have had our tanks die off long ago because those plants draw their nutrients from the water, not from substrate.
Plants are far more efficient beings than most animals. They don't use all that many nutrients (this is why one fertilizer spike can feed a houseplant for six months or more). Aquatic fertilizer spikes/tabs will keep aquatic plants happy and healthy in gravel, as long as their roots can handle the rough nature of gravel. In the end, no substrate will keep its nutrient load forever. You eventually have to supplement with spikes/tabs anyway (or change your substrate out on a yearly basis). This just happens sooner, rather than later

Fish Addict

Wow! That was very... heated?

What about maybe one Dwarf Gourami and four Harlequins? That way you'd have "a small shoal (maybe like 4) and one flashy fish" like you said. That would end up with an all asian, peaceful tank that would be pretty compatible... And it would only be 11" of fish!
I think everyone was too focused on the betta to realize how many types of fish there are from Asia!

Butterfly

I have grown plants satisfactorily in gravel for years. But then I'm not looking for a picture perfect tank. I grow the plants to keep my fish happy and as a pretty backdrop for them and their always heavily planted. Seems the more plants I have the happier my fish are not the reverse. There are some plants that need high lights, Co2 and specialized substrates I just haven't raised many of those. Our members have some of the most beautiful tanks I've ever seen. Sharing how they did these tanks is what it's all about. Not dictating how it has to be done but sharing their ideas.
Amnagrla - yes you are a research fiend I love hearing about all the things you check out. And yes questions can stimulate many exchanges of ideas,those types of discussions have resulted in some of my best tanks and baring that just good conversations
Found this and it's really cool -
http://www.freshwateraquariumplants....tope/asia.html
http://fish.mongabay.com/biotope_se_asia_pool.htm
My
carol

Amnagrla

hehe thanks.

This is why I love fish forum!

Mike

Jim's no longer a member here. As I've said countless times before, Debate is encouraged but if you are disrespectful to your fellow members you won't be a member here. Plain and simple.

We don't ban willy nilly, we actually give out warnings first. Jim was given a warning for his posts yesterday and then he decided to start deleting threads this morning, causing a minor headache for me. In doing this he completely violated my trust and was banned immediately for these actions. I was disappointed to say the least since he was such a good member for quite some time, but it was something that had to be done. The tone in his message earlier in thread (calling someone's advice stupid, also posting something similar in another thread) was one of the primary reasons why I created FishLore in the first place.

If you have a problem with someone's advice, don't ridicule. Instead discuss it like an adult, point out weaknesses in their advice including facts to back up your case, but don't ridicule or get disrespectful. Once a discussion takes a turn like this you lose most of the participants and most importantly, a potential solution to a problem. There is no need for that here and will NOT be tolerated.

Sorry, for hijacking the thread.
Mike