treehugr

Hello, I am a new member and new freshwater aquarium owner. We set up our 14 gallon Oceanic Biocube tank weeks ago but were having hard water and nitrite issues until we emptied our water and purchased water directly from the fish store. After testing it several times, we finally felt secure to buy our first fish.

We bought 1 Dwarf Gourami, 1 Yoyo Loach, 1 Agassizi Cory and 3 Red Serpae Tetras. From research I know that the Gourami should be fine with just one but that Tetras like to be in shoals of 6+ so we intend on getting three more Serpaes in a few weeks, once the tank fully cycles.

I wasn’t aware, until we brought them home, that the Loach and Cory also like to shoal – figured, since they were bottom-dwellers, they were loners. And the guy helping us at the fish place said they would both be fine with just 1 each (and a good addition to a small tank). But, now that I’ve had a chance to do more research, it appears both the Loach and Cory do prefer more of their kind. I’m concerned because we can’t fit multiple shoals in our 14-gallon tank, we will be at a good capacity with the addition of the 3 Serpaes. Which of the three species would you recommend for the shoal — the Serpae Tetra, the Cory or the Yoyo Loach? I’m thinking for the shoal, maybe we pick whichever is MOST stressed by NOT being in a shoal.

Also, I’m getting conflicting info on the max size of the Yoyo Loach – getting max 4” on some sites, 6” on others. What do you find is more accurate? Obvously if they are over 4” we cannot do a shoal of the Loach. Perhaps we could do 3 at the most – would that even help at all?

[Sigh] When we bought the 14-gallon it seemed like a good size to start with – not too small, not too big — but I already feel like we need a bigger tank.

sirdarksol

It sounds like someone is already feeling the initial bite of the MTS (multiple tank syndrome) bug.

Anyway, I've never had a yoyo loach or serpae tetra, but I have had a cory die for what seemed like no reason. As far as anybody here could guess, it died because of stress due to lack of school-mates.

Ummm... as far as the hard-water and nitrites issue, did you test your water straight from the tap? If so, did it have nitrites? If so, you're right, that could be a problem. If not, it's natural for nitrites to build in a tank before the nitrifying bacteria fully build and turn them into nitrate. The nitrates then get taken out when we do water changes.
How hard was the water that it was a problem?
My concern is twofold. First, the cost of purchasing water is going to get excessive as you do water-changes. Second, if you're buying tank water from the pet store, that water already has waste products in it, and has the potential to carry any number of fishy illnesses.

King_Snuggles

I'm new also but i have heard that the tetras would need the shoal more. They can become fin nippers and hide alot if they are not in a group. I used to have a pair of Corys and they were alwayes together, so even if you could fit one more of them it would help. I dont know anything about loaches but am working on it. Best of luck.

susitna-flower

Welcome to Fishlore! The very same thing has happened to most of us......It's called MTS (Multiple Tank Syndrom), you start out with one, and find you can't get everything you want, sooooooo........you end up with 4-55 gallon tanks, a 150 and it STILL isn't enough. Now you have to decide what you want in this tank.....

Since you have been set up awhile, how are you doing your cycle? I am also concerned that you would feel the need to buy water from the fish store. Usually ph isn't a problem, if you introduce your fish slowly, (a little tank water every 15 minutes for 2 hours, before you put them right into the tank), but you do need to test your other water parameters, to be cycled ammonia, and nitrite should be back down to 0 and nitrates up to between 5 & 10. This is an indication that all the different bacteria are doing their jobs.

Since each of the fish you have chosen like more than one to be happy, here is an idea. I like to have fish living in each 'region' of the tank. Right now you have two types of fish that live mid tank, and two that are bottom dwellers. Choose one type for each region of the tank, and stick with the approperiate # for each one. Like 2 gourami's and 3 corys, (yes, dwarf gouramis really do like more than one also), OR 6 Serpaes and ?....Well you get the idea. You have to stay under 1" of adult fish length per gallon to keep from having an overcrowded tank. The Loach is probably the first you should consider taking back. Your LFS should be willing to trade you something for it. Good luck, and see you round the forum.

angelfish220

Welcome to Fishlore!!
My Guess is that they all will be stressed if they don't have safety in numbers. I would return the tetras and yoyo then get another gourami and 2 more corys. That would create a nice little tank. You could get a different kind of gourami if you want more variety. A Honey Gourami would add nice contrast or even a fire gourami.

COBettaCouple

Welcome to FishLore!

Yea, the water is hard there. Ours always was. We just moved from St. Augustine in September.

Yoyo Loaches - they vary but 6" is probably about average. I believe Kuhli loaches get to 4" and can be kept in a group of 3 or more. I would keep Cories in a group of at least 3, but they can do with just a pair if need be. They would be your smallest bottom dweller option.

The best thing for the tank probably would be to return the yoyo and add 3 red serpaes. 6 of them would use 9g of the bioload + 3g for the dwarf gourami, leaving you with 12g used and 2g left for cories. The Agassizi get to 3.5" inches so a pair would put you at 19g for bioload so I'd probably return the cory and go with a pair of Julii Cories or no bottom dwellers.. or get a pair of agassizi and do more frequent partial water changes, keeping a close eye on water chemistry with the api master FW kit. Prime would be the best water conditioner for the tap water there.

treehugr

First, thank you for all of your replies - this site is great.

I just called the fish store and told them my concerns. They guy said I should be fine to add 2 more tetras. He said the Yoyo Loach can get 6 inches in the wild and that it may not get that big in captivity. His size would depend on how often we feed him, what we feed him and the water quality. He also said, even if the Yoyo did get 6", it wouldn't happen overnight (could take a couple of years) and that I would probably have another tank by then to move him into (I guess he's well aware of MTS ).

I also asked about the CoryCat -- since some posts that say they prefer at least one other Cory in the tank -- and he said maybe try only ONE more tetra (so, 4 total) so that we could get another CoryCat. I wonder if the Tetras will school with just 4?

COBettaCouple

The tetras will probably shoal with 4, but I'm not sure they'll school.

treehugr

Well, unfortunately two of my fish have passed on this week. They did great the first 5 weeks, I thought we were golden.

About 3 weeks ago we did a full water change because we started seeing algae on everything. My Yoyo Loach was hiding, not eating. Had to do something. So, we emptied the tank, scrubbed everything (no soap, just water) and refilled the tank with new water from our LFS. We did NOT clean the bioballs (knowing that's where our bacteria live) so we felt okay about the full water change - assuming that the bacteria were still in tact in the bio balls.

The water was clear the first few days, the Yoyo Loach started moing out and feeding. We thought all was great. Then the water started getting cloudy, more cloudy each day. The Yoyo went back to hiding. Called the LFS, they said to let it be - give it a week. Week went by - was getting worse (couldn't even see the back of the tank). Took a picture of the tank to the LFS and they said it was probably algae (which is confusing since we did a full water change to get rid of the algae!). They recommended Algone plus removing carbon filter and replacing with simple phosphate eliminating pad. Did that last week and, within a few days, my CoryCat died .

We did another water change this wekend and, unfortunately, found the Yoyo Loach (who we hadn't seen in a week) dead in a rock Not sure if he died before or after we added the Algone.

susitna-flower

Sorry about your fish! The first thing I would have suggested before radical water changes and definately before scrubbing the tank, is to test your water. Unless you test, you will not know if it is ammonia or nitrites, OR nitrates. The first two are extremely toxic to your fish. They will kill, and you could have added prime after a partial water change to detoxify and make it safe for your fish. The API Master test kit is what we recommend.

Nitrates are a lot less toxic, but for YoYo's and corys high levels would make them uncomfrotable and eventually die if levels get high enough.

You did distroy much of your bacteria in scrubbing your tank. That is never the thing to do unless you have an infection in the tank that you need to disinfect. This probabily did cause a mini-cycle, which is probably what killed your fish.

Water changes, less food, and cut some light hours will help rid your tank of algae, your LFS should have told you all this, instead of just selling you more products.

COBettaCouple

Unfortunately, I think the LFS gave you bad advice that killed your fish.

I believe what happened when the water got cloudy was most likely a spike in ammonia/nitrites. Without a test from then, it's hard to be 100% but I'm almost certain. It wasn't algae and their advice should have been at least daily 25-50% water changes and using Prime for the water conditioner, depending on how high the ammonia readings were.

Yoyos and Corys are pretty sensitive to water conditions as well as chemicals, so high ammonia would be very hard on them and algae-removing liquids would be even harder. I recommend to people to NEVER use those, they can really be deadly to even hardy tropical fish.

treehugr

We did, and have been, using the The API test kit to test the water since we've had the tank. All results have come out normal so we are baffled.

This morning my Gourami is acting a little different (not chowing down the food,like he normally does and hiding near the heater, which my Yoyo did when he was sick) and I am terrified he is next! We took out the Algone pack and phostphate-eliminating filter, just in case it was those killing our fish. I hope we got it out in time and my Gourami makes it. I tell you, if we lose him now, I don't know if I'll continue with the tank -- it's too hard to lose fish like this - I feel terrible.

treehugr

I don't know what we can do to fix the water. My husband is saying we should replace the bioballs - that maybe there is a bad bacteria in there that is causing the water cloudiness. I realize if we do replace those, we'll be at square 1 - starting the cycle as if it were a new tank.

Does anyone have any suggestions/advice?

susitna-flower

I just read back over this whole thread, and I can see several events that make me wonder if you could have avoided some of the problems. Things you could start doing differently that would help you enjoy your tank from here on out.

#1 What ARE your water test results today? If you aren't doing it yet make a chart and record your readings every day/week.

#2 What IS your weekly water change routine?

#3 What IS your daily lighting schedule?

Your tank is at FULL capacity. Because you had "algae on everything" you did a full water change. The way you described this tells me that you had high nitrates. Your tank had been set up for long enough to be cycled, but with the fish load you had you probably had nitrates up over 40 which would certainly have caused the algae, and the yoyo not feeling well.

When you changed the water and scrubbed everything, the yoyo started feeling better, because the nitrates were down, but it sent your tank into a mini-cycle....ammonia and nitrites went up -which killed your fish, and the cloudy water - this is a bacterial bloom, which the tank HAS to go through again since you killed off so much bacteria. The cloudiness will clear on its own when the bacteria catches up with the waste level your fish are producing.

Without doing daily water changes at this point the toxic levels of ammonia and nitrite will continue to kill fish unless you do those daily water changes. Using Prime will help, but the water changes are necessary also.

The only way you know how to maintain a tank is to take water test readings every day until the tank is cycled again.

IF Ammonia or Nitrites are up over 0, do PARTIAL water changes, 25% a day (with your house water, treated with your choice of dechlorinater ). Don't use your LFS water any more, doing so will get to be so much trouble you will not do the water changes you have to be doing......

Weekly maintenance you have to do water changes and gravel vacuuming.....This is an ongoing, every week thing, and will keep your nitrates down to under 20....With a tank AT capacity for stocking you will have to test your water before your water change, and determine how much you have to change depending on the test....25-50%.....If your nitrates are up over 20%, you may have to do two of these changes every week.

If your nitrates are up over 20 you WILL have algae......Algae doesn't hurt your fish, but the high nitrates will.....so water changes and lights on NO MORE than 10 hours a day will deal with the algae. Hope this helps. Post those water readings and we will have more to help you with...

treehugr

Hi. Thanks for the post; here are my answers:

Q: #1 What ARE your water test results today? If you aren't doing it yet make a chart and record your readings every day/week.

A: We test the water every week and write down the results, which have been good so far. Today the PH was at 7.5 and the nitrites and nitrates were 0.

Q: #2 What IS your weekly water change routine?

A: Honestly, I don't remember doing water changes the first month - we may have done small ones, but I don't recall for sure. The test prior to the full water change we did was nitrites = 0, PH = 7.6, ammonia = .5 and nitrates = 5.0 -- this was on 1/23.

Then we did the full water change on 2/3 and did another water test - nitrites = 0, PH = 7.3, ammonia = .25 and nitrates = 0.

Q: #3 What IS your daily lighting schedule?

A: I turn on the white light to feed them in the morning at at dinner time. I put the blue light on during the day and then turn it off around 8:00 - so, it's on about 8-10 hours.

treehugr

I'm so afraid my Gourami is next to go...today he has been just hanging out by the heater, close to the surface (taking in air now and then).

My husband just went to the LFS to see if they had a phosphate test kit. They tested the water and said the phosphates were fine. The nitrates and nitrites were fine - said the PH was a little high (7.5), but not dangerous. Doesn't the PH "danger" level depend on the types of fish? Before I even got our fish I did research on them and my notes say that the their ranges were 72 at the low end (tetras) to 82 at the high end (Yoyo and Gourami), so why would 7.5 be a little high for OUR fish?

SereneReyn

the Ph is most dangerous when it changes rapidly. high or low isn't nearly as bad, most fish can adjust to dealing with a Ph that is less than ideal.

what 'blue' light are you referring to? blue lighting is typically geared toward reef tanks.

i would suggest against any full water changes, pretty much ever... the chances of you putting water back in that is right on par with what you took out are slim... if you change at most half - then at least you're still 'diluting' any mistakes/changes.

what temperature is your water? do you have carbon in your filter now? did you at least use carbon to take out the anti-algae stuff? if you don't have carbon in there, rinse some and add it. this will take out toxins and medications, etc... just be aware that you can't leave it in there indefinitely... it will release all that junk once it's full.

treehugr

Q: the Ph is most dangerous when it changes rapidly. high or low isn't nearly as bad, most fish can adjust to dealing with a Ph that is less than ideal.
what 'blue' light are you referring to? blue lighting is typically geared toward reef tanks.

A: We have a BioCube - it has two lights, one is the bright white light and the other is a more subtle blue light. Is the blue light bad for non-reef tanks? I didn't see anywhere in the handbook that we shouldn't use it.

Q: i would suggest against any full water changes, pretty much ever... the chances of you putting water back in that is right on par with what you took out are slim... if you change at most half - then at least you're still 'diluting' any mistakes/changes.

A: Yeah, I don't think we'll be doing that again. I advised against it this past weekend but my husband said we shouldn't put any of the cloudy water back in the tank because "whatever is growing in the water" will just multiply in the new water.

Q: what temperature is your water?

A: We have the heater set to 78 but it fluctuates between 78 and 81.

Q: do you have carbon in your filter now? did you at least use carbon to take out the anti-algae stuff? if you don't have carbon in there, rinse some and add it. this will take out toxins and medications, etc... just be aware that you can't leave it in there indefinitely... it will release all that junk once it's full.

A: The BioCube works with a carbon filter. We always had it in, except when the LFS told us to use the Algone and phosphate pad (said the charcoal would defeat the purpose) so we had the charcoal filter out for about a week. We just put it back in today, after throwing away the Algone and phosphate pad (both of which didn't seem to work - and probably killed my CoryCat).